Gatwick drone chaos: Flights finally resume after airport's 32-hour shutdown

[PeteEU]

You dont think the Brit security services have any tracking devices? Well, thats you.

Where did I state that?

No unlike the movies putting in place the materials and manpower to deal with such a situation takes time. It is there now and should deal with the problem there...and when they switch to another airport then what? It has to move and that takes time as well.

It is not like in the movies where CSI gets DNA results in 5 minutes or can track signals in seconds.

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[PoS]

Where did I state that?

No unlike the movies putting in place the materials and manpower to deal with such a situation takes time. It is there now and should deal with the problem there...and when they switch to another airport then what? It has to move and that takes time as well.

It is not like in the movies where CSI gets DNA results in 5 minutes or can track signals in seconds.

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Are we talking about 5 minutes here? The airport was disrupted for 32 hours. 32 hours. Get it?

 

[Spartacus FPV]

Which freq are they jamming?
What freq are they tracking?

If it isn't a aerial photography consumer drone which have firmware that doesn't allow flying near such airports (DJI products for example) then they are almost always hobbyists on 2.4ghz (radio controller transmission, but can be on one of many protocols) and 5.8ghz (video transmission but on one of dozens of channels).

If it is the latter and not a hacked version of the former, it would be easy/cheap to have someone in the ATC scan video transmissions on every 5.8ghz channel, then use a directional patch antenna to determine the direction of the drone.

 

[Sven Karma]

Various anti-drone technologies:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-46639099

 

[PeteEU]

Are we talking about 5 minutes here? The airport was disrupted for 32 hours. 32 hours. Get it?

Yes and do you understand the freaking logistics here?

Gatwick Airport is 80 Square km of space.. And the drone flyer is outside said area which makes the possible area they need to cover huge depending which type of drone and its distance.

The tech needed to jam or stop said drone had to be found and brought to the airport but does it cover 80+ Square km? Doubtful. So where do you place it? The drone was spotted in several places and can they be sure that some of the sightings were not a hoax?

And let's not forget that Gatwick ain't in the middle of no where any more but situated in one of the biggest cities in the world and jamming frequencies at random can have huge consequences.

Could they have had a better plan? Sure but that is with hindsight. Remember there are many drone models and many have systems that prevent you from flying around airports...unless you disable that feature or build your own drone. And the suddenly it get way more complicated to find the persons involved.

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[PeteEU]

If it isn't a aerial photography consumer drone which have firmware that doesn't allow flying near such airports (DJI products for example) then they are almost always hobbyists on 2.4ghz (radio controller transmission, but can be on one of many protocols) and 5.8ghz (video transmission but on one of dozens of channels).

If it is the latter and not a hacked version of the former, it would be easy/cheap to have someone in the ATC scan video transmissions on every 5.8ghz channel, then use a directional patch antenna to determine the direction of the drone.

Or someone could have built their own drone....and then good luck on that.

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[Spartacus FPV]

It is not like in the movies where CSI gets DNA results in 5 minutes or can track signals in seconds.

Or someone could have built their own drone....and then good luck on that.

That is what I meant by hobbyist. That actually makes it easier.

One person with one of these can tell you the direction of the drone, another person also checking but in a different position can then triangulate distance; in seconds.


Source: Am a license HAM Radio tech, FAA registered drone pilot, member of the AMA and MultiGP (drone racing) and have built several drones.

 

[Quag]

The point Im making is they didnt have an alternate plan in place. They wasted 32 hours and hundreds of thousands of passengers were disrupted anyway. If that wasn't enough incentive for you, well I dont know what else to say.

Exactly. 32 hours, and they did nothing. They didnt even catch the perp.[/QUOTE]

As I said in my original post the lack of a plan isn't because they never considered this a problem it is because they dont actually have a solution. They are working on it and have been for a while.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Think about it, You don’t need to do real terrorism, economic terrorism costing millions can be achieved with a three hundred dollar drone

 

[Spartacus FPV]

Think about it, You don’t need to do real terrorism, economic terrorism costing millions can be achieved with a three hundred dollar drone

Remember that drone (Syma X5C) that flew onto the White House lawn and causes small hubbub, costs < $20.

 

[Quag]

If it isn't a aerial photography consumer drone which have firmware that doesn't allow flying near such airports (DJI products for example) then they are almost always hobbyists on 2.4ghz (radio controller transmission, but can be on one of many protocols) and 5.8ghz (video transmission but on one of dozens of channels).

They are able but not allowed to fly near airports without specific permission to do so. The majority of commercial drone use is not really a problem, the operators know the rules and obey. Personal use is different any schmuck can buy a drone and fly it. However those with malicious intent dont obey the laws and with a bit of knowledge can built their own drone, the frequencies are not set in stone.

If it is the latter and not a hacked version of the former, it would be easy/cheap to have someone in the ATC scan video transmissions on every 5.8ghz channel, then use a directional patch antenna to determine the direction of the drone.

ATC doesn't actually have that kind of ability. They are there to provide air navigation services not police or detective services. Most DF equipment used by ATC has set frequencies and only in aviation frequencies, they have mostly been replaced by RADAR in any case. Military or police forces may but again you need to know what you are looking for. Do you seriously think that was the only device using those bands on that day?

 

[Spartacus FPV]

They are able but not allowed to fly near airports without specific permission to do so. The majority of commercial drone use is not really a problem, the operators know the rules and obey. Personal use is different any schmuck can buy a drone and fly it. However those with malicious intent dont obey the laws and with a bit of knowledge can built their own drone, the frequencies are not set in stone.

ATC doesn't actually have that kind of ability. They are there to provide air navigation services not police or detective services. Most DF equipment used by ATC has set frequencies and only in aviation frequencies, they have mostly been replaced by RADAR in any case. Military or police forces may but again you need to know what you are looking for.

I wasn't saying the ATC staff should do it, I was suggesting someone at that location who is hired to track down the drone operator use a vtx receiver.

Do you seriously think that was the only device using those bands on that day?

Of course not, the point is that with a vtx receiver you can scan through each channel on 5.8ghz until you see the transmission from the drone. Once you have the transmission, you know the drone is in the direction the patch antenna is pointing.

 

[Higgins86]

Im not in the British government, so I have no say in the matter. You ought to ask them. I just posted the article.

All I can add is that a similar incident happened in Isreal, I believe, and the authorities there dealt with it promptly.

Unlike the US we see Israel as a pretty low bar to aim for.

 

[Grand Mal]

Im not in the British government, so I have no say in the matter. You ought to ask them. I just posted the article.

All I can add is that a similar incident happened in Isreal, I believe, and the authorities there dealt with it promptly.

Last summer firefighting efforts had to stop twice here (BC) because some asshole was flying a drone in the area.

 

[Aristaeus]

I wasn't saying the ATC staff should do it, I was suggesting someone at that location who is hired to track down the drone operator use a vtx receiver.



Of course not, the point is that with a vtx receiver you can scan through each channel on 5.8ghz until you see the transmission from the drone. Once you have the transmission, you know the drone is in the direction the patch antenna is pointing.

Do you think the drone was just nicely hovering constantly in one spot? It was popping up at random points in an 80 sq km area for brief moments then disappearing.

 

[Aristaeus]

Im not in the British government, so I have no say in the matter. You ought to ask them. I just posted the article.

All I can add is that a similar incident happened in Isreal, I believe, and the authorities there dealt with it promptly.

I'll bet any money that the Israel situation was completely different. Different drone flight pattern, different terrain, different hazards, etc.

 

[Quag]

I wasn't saying the ATC staff should do it, I was suggesting someone at that location who is hired to track down the drone operator use a vtx receiver.



Of course not, the point is that with a vtx receiver you can scan through each channel on 5.8ghz until you see the transmission from the drone. Once you have the transmission, you know the drone is in the direction the patch antenna is pointing.

ATC doesn't have that equipment, so why mention them at all?
However who says it is using those frequencies? Drones can be controlled via cell phone, someone can make a controller using other frequencies etc etc...

8 Smartphone Controlled Drones With Camera [Fall 2017 Updated]

The problem is much more complex than some people are letting on and govts have been working on it.

 

[beefheart]

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/12/21/uk/gatwick-airport-drone-shutdown-intl-gbr/index.html

On now for some real European news...



So let me get this straight, the country with the most surveillance cameras and most robust security services in the world gets into a transport chaos because of a tiny drone? So much for British dependability and efficiency. First the nerve toxin affair and now this. If I was going to book a visit to the UK I would definitely think twice.

Oh and knowing the Brits, their final solution would be is to ban all civilian drones, I bet. :2razz:

Absolute disaster. So glad I am not non-revving anywhere this season. People don't realize the downstream effects when one airport gets shut down, it ripples across the world. If they find whoever did this, he should have to go through a gauntlet of passengers whose vacations, business trips, family emergency trips, etc were ruined.

 

[PoS]

As I said in my original post the lack of a plan isn't because they never considered this a problem it is because they dont actually have a solution. They are working on it and have been for a while.

Well, according to this report, there was no other plan in place:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2018/dec/21/gatwick-drone-airport-limited-flights-live

The shadow transport secretary, Andy McDonald said:

We’re all relieved that Gatwick has reopened, but the Government now needs to admit that the chaos of the past two days was a consequence of its own failures.

The Government has neither understood nor fully assessed the risk posed by drones to the UK’s national infrastructure. It has not undertaken anything like appropriate contingency planning. And it has not prepared properly, despite protective technology being available.

It’s obvious that drones should not be able to get anywhere near an airport before being taken down. But the Government has dithered and delayed on regulating drones.

 

[beefheart]

Well, according to this report, there was no other plan in place:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2018/dec/21/gatwick-drone-airport-limited-flights-live

Good thing that the UK is still in the EU, they were able to divert lots of flights to DUB and SIN after BHX and MAN and all the other airports got full.

 

[Quag]

Well, according to this report, there was no other plan in place:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2018/dec/21/gatwick-drone-airport-limited-flights-live

I will admit it is possible the UK hasn't actually given it much though but that's incredibly unlikely as I know that the USA and Canada both have and the UK tends to be quite aware of terrorism
I said it isn't because they havent thought about it, it is because they dont have a solution. The opinion of an opposition member trying to score points by claiming they have never considered it doesn't mean they havent.

 

[NO1]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/uk-army-said-to-use-israeli-made-system-to-end-drone-chaos-at-london-airport/

he British military reportedly used an Israeli anti-drone system to ground an unmanned aerial vehicle that shuttered the airfield at London’s Gatwick Airport for over 36 hours beginning Thursday, stranding tens of thousands of passengers.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

Do you think the drone was just nicely hovering constantly in one spot?

No I don't.

It was popping up at random points in an 80 sq km area for brief moments then disappearing.

Exactly, which means the drone is being landed near the operator to retrieve it. So finding its location, which would take < a minute with a vtx monitor/antenna that costs < $50, also means finding the operator.

 

[Higgins86]

No I don't.



Exactly, which means the drone is being landed near the operator to retrieve it. So finding its location, which would take < a minute with a vtx monitor/antenna that costs < $50, also means finding the operator.

That's called speculation, you have no idea what kind of drone this was.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

ATC doesn't have that equipment

I never said they did. That said even an expensive vTx setup cost only hundreds, which is nothing compared to the money lost grounding all these planes.

so why mention them at all?

Because it would be an ideal location to receive a vTx transmission. I also mentioned having someone anywhere else at a distance to triangulate.

However who says it is using those frequencies?

I am, as a licensed ham radio tech who has built several drones and is active in the FPV community.

Drones can be controlled via cell phone

Those drones are using wifi fpv and have FAR less range than a 5.8ghz signal at say 200mw.

someone can make a controller using other frequencies etc etc...

Yes, very likely either using the FrSky protocol, or Spectrum, or TBS Crossfire, least likely being Flysky.

The problem is much more complex than some people are letting on and govts have been working on it.

Only to people who have aren't licensed in radio.