Fury as Israel president claims English are 'anti-semitic

[Gardener]

What your beliefs are and what the reality is are obviously two very different things.

Show me exactly where I "supported" Gardener. Quote me.

You haven't even responded to me in this thread at all, nor have you thanked any of my posts nor given any indication whatsoever that we are somehow in cahoots. Of course, that doesn't prevent those who are here to try to twist reality to suit their agenda from trying to ply their craft.

What I find amazing is the "emperers new clothes" aspect of this thread. Your pointing out the obvious, and your reference to others who are also capable of pointing out the obvious creates such cognitive dissonance among those who are incapable of such that they have to whip up an alternate reality in order to continue the pursuit of their dogmatic insistance that their track record of statements is somehow not indicative of their actual bias on the subject.

What better confirmation that all I said was true than the twisted machinations of the various British posters here seeking so desperately to obfuscate the issue through these attempts at deception? You most obviously have not replied to any of my posts at all, but that does not prevent dishonest posters from trying to claim you have.

 

[Red_Dave]

You haven't even responded to me in this thread at all, nor have you thanked any of my posts nor given any indication whatsoever that we are somehow in cahoots. Of course, that doesn't prevent those who are here to try to twist reality to suit their agenda from trying to ply their craft.

What I find amazing is the "emperers new clothes" aspect of this thread. Your pointing out the obvious, and your reference to others who are also capable of pointing out the obvious creates such cognitive dissonance among those who are incapable of such that they have to whip up an alternate reality in order to continue the pursuit of their dogmatic insistance that their track record of statements is somehow not indicative of their actual bias on the subject.

What better confirmation that all I said was true than the twisted machinations of the various British posters here seeking so desperately to obfuscate the issue through these attempts at deception? You most obviously have not replied to any of my posts at all, but that does not prevent dishonest posters from trying to claim you have.

Which brings up an important point. Why would anyone here feel the need to disceive anyone? Why hide being an anti-semite on an anoymous forum?

 

[kaya'08]

Which brings up an important point. Why would anyone here feel the need to disceive anyone? Why hide being an anti-semite on an anoymous forum?

It constitutes a ban that's why

 

[Apocalypse]

Cameron is the PM of a much more respected and Western nation than Israel and so Pere's needs to accept Cameron's verdict on Gaza. The wise old grandfather of the Jewish state Pere's needs to know when to keep his trap shut. His own comments are insensitive for a man of his "high stature".

Peres didn't really say anything that was evidently wrong.
That Britain has an increasing antisemitism wave is known, that British politicians tend more towards the Arab world rather than Israel is also known.
It's true that there was no advantage in saying this, but he didn't really say anything wrong, and he absolutely did not "call the English anti-Semitic" as the extremely anti-Israeli British press chooses to 'report'.

 

[Red_Dave]

It constitutes a ban that's why

The ban would certainly be a reason not to make anti-semetic statements, but not to denny being an anti-semite.

Peres didn't really say anything that was evidently wrong.
That Britain has an increasing antisemitism wave is known, that British politicians tend more towards the Arab world rather than Israel is also known.
It's true that there was no advantage in saying this, but he didn't really say anything wrong, and he absolutely did not "call the English anti-Semitic" as the extremely anti-Israeli British press chooses to 'report'.

The British government at least has traditionally been very pro Israel. David Cameron may make ocasional criticisms but that doesnt stop him from doing anything about this

http://www.caat.org.uk/issues/israel.php

 

[Gardener]

Which brings up an important point. Why would anyone here feel the need to disceive anyone? Why hide being an anti-semite on an anoymous forum?

Oh, believe me. They don't succeed in hiding it at all.

 

[Tashah]

The ban would certainly be a reason not to make anti-semetic statements, but not to denny being an anti-semite.

Self-declared racists and people of that ilk don't last very long here at DP. Either their explanations of why they are the way they are engender hate speech, or they suffer unending beatings downstairs. Typically, they endeavor to walk the fine line between open declaration and plausible deny-ability.

 

[kaya'08]

The ban would certainly be a reason not to make anti-semetic statements, but not to denny being an anti-semite.

Dave, admitting you are an anti-semite constitutes a ban
See user The Struggle.

 

[Gardener]

"Why, I can't be an antisemite!! After all, I haven't eaten any Jewish babies.





today.


It's all about where you set the bar, I guess, and setting it in a place where a person cannot be considered antisemitic unless they call themself an antisemite pretty much rules out the term, itself.

Which, of course, is all part of the agenda. If you take away the ability to name something, you take away the ability to respond to it.

 

[kaya'08]

"Why, I can't be an antisemite!! After all, I haven't eaten any Jewish babies.





today.

:rofl :rofl

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Which brings up an important point. Why would anyone here feel the need to disceive anyone? Why hide being an anti-semite on an anoymous forum?

Of all the replies given, I'm with Tashah here. Anti-Semites don't last long. The last one I clearly remember got to about 800 or so posts before he was banned. I don't read that many threads though and I don't think any of the British or European posters currently on DP are anti-semitic.

I accept on re-reading that Tashah in her last post before mine did not say that we were all antisemetic expept yourself. However she came into this discussion at the point where Gardiner had been saying this for some time as he had previously in this thread as I think you know and she certainly appeared to be supporting him.

No, I don't have the temerity to speak for Tashah but I've never seen her support Gardiner. Tashah speaks for herself pretty well - we've had our agreements and disagreements but I admire her hugely. You and I have disagreed over various things but been on the same side in others - doesn't mean we support each other either.

--snip-- European report said the UK was the only country studied which had seen a reduction, although this was in 2008 before Cast Lead. The UK was the lowest in Europe and only slightly higher than the US at 9% to the US's 7% so why there appears to be this great desire to depict the UK as antisemetic is beyond ordinary considerations.

Your implication that in the UK you would find antisemitism and any other kind of xenophobia/racism in equal proportions is also not correct. While our antisemitism at this time was 9% our Islamophobia was 23% - the same as the US and much higher that antisemitism.

There's been a long tradition of Jews in our highest positions of power, Beth Din courts freely allowed for hundreds of years etc. Our Jewish population is relatively small in comparison to the muslim population and so if there is a proportionate difference between anti-semitic and anti-muslim feeling then the population difference goes to account for this.
I'd agree that there isn't a press campaign against Jewish clothing as there is against Muslim clothing in the UK, that kosher slaughter is left alone while halal brings about controversy etc but the main point (and I still strongly believe this) is that those who are anti-muslim would pretty much be anti-semitic, anti-black and anti-chinese. It's fairly rare to come across anyone whose specific gripe or hatred is directed at one ethnic minority alone. That's why I can't agree Shimon Peres comments or anyone else on this thread who argues otherwise that there is a specific anti-semitic movement anywhere in the UK and that this same movement leaves blacks / muslims / gays or any other minority alone.

-- Then if we look at the British people who post on the ME threads. We have Laila who sometimes appears pro Israeli and sometimes critical. Kaya08 is exactly the same, sometimes pro and sometimes against. Paul has been labelled pro Palestinian though he said that was not true. Nonethelesss he was told that was what he was....which leaves me.

None of those posters are anti-semitic on the forum. What anyone is away from here is their own business.

 

[Red_Dave]

It's all about where you set the bar, I guess, and setting it in a place where a person cannot be considered antisemitic unless they call themself an antisemite pretty much rules out the term, itself.
.

Like I,ve set before. I would set the bar at the statements that actually demonize the Jewish people (two-thirds of who live outside of Israel) as a group. Something that most of the regulars here have never done. Im amazed that the suggestion that in order for someone to be an call an anti-semite they must actually say something anti-semetic generates such controversy.

 

[Gardener]

Like I,ve set before. I would set the bar at the statements that actually demonize the Jewish people (two-thirds of who live outside of Israel) as a group. Something that most of the regulars here have never done. Im amazed that the suggestion that in order for someone to be an call an anti-semite they must actually say something anti-semetic generates such controversy.

Here are some typical antisemitic themes.

Jews are rich

Jews are manipulative.

Jews exert too much influence.

Jews are only loyal to other Jews.

Jews use the holocaust to gain an advantage over others.

Jews act like Nazis.

Jews are sneaky, biased, conniving, secretive, and use others to get what they want.


Now, this may fly right over your head because I'm sure you want it to, but just changing the word "Jew" to "Zionist" here does not provide some sort of magical, get out of jail free card to everybody. When people cross the line into all the familiar antisemitic canards, they ARE indulging in antisemitism, even when they attempt the phony ruse of substituting the state of Israel or the term zionist for Jew.

 

[Red_Dave]

Here are some typical antisemitic themes.

Jews are rich

Jews are manipulative.

Jews exert too much influence.

Jews are only loyal to other Jews.

Jews use the holocaust to gain an advantage over others.

Jews act like Nazis.

Jews are sneaky, biased, conniving, secretive, and use others to get what they want.


Now, this may fly right over your head because I'm sure you want it to, but just changing the word "Jew" to "Zionist" here does not provide some sort of magical, get out of jail free card to everybody. When people cross the line into all the familiar antisemitic canards, they ARE indulging in antisemitism, even when they attempt the phony ruse of substituting the state of Israel or the term zionist for Jew.

I think many do that certainly but I honestly cant say I,ve seen alot of those statements made on this forum ,at least not from the regulars.

 

[PeteEU]

Here are some typical antisemitic themes.

Jews are rich

Jews are manipulative.

Jews exert too much influence.

Jews are only loyal to other Jews.

Jews use the holocaust to gain an advantage over others.

Jews act like Nazis.

Jews are sneaky, biased, conniving, secretive, and use others to get what they want.


Now, this may fly right over your head because I'm sure you want it to, but just changing the word "Jew" to "Zionist" here does not provide some sort of magical, get out of jail free card to everybody. When people cross the line into all the familiar antisemitic canards, they ARE indulging in antisemitism, even when they attempt the phony ruse of substituting the state of Israel or the term zionist for Jew.

In other words, you cant be critical of Israel without being an anti-semite in your little world.

And as for

Jews use the holocaust to gain an advantage over others.

No the state of Israel does. Almost every time I see the official Israeli spokesman, he some how gets the holocaust mentioned.

 

[Gardener]

In other words, you cant be critical of Israel without being an anti-semite in your little world.

A person would have to be awfully stupid or awfully bigoted to fall for that. Who are you trying to fool here, Pete -- me, the forum at large or yourself?

No the state of Israel does. Almost every time I see the official Israeli spokesman, he some how gets the holocaust mentioned.

Like I said, it really doesn't fool intelligent people to simply substitute one word or term for another. Thank you for providing such an example, however.

 

[Apocalypse]

A person would have to be awfully stupid or awfully bigoted to fall for that. Who are you trying to fool here, Pete -- me, the forum at large or yourself?

^ Joining the question.

 

[Gardener]

^ Joining the question.

Well, at least pete has verified for us that when some of them say "criticism of Israel", what they are really talking about ARE these Elders of Zion type canards I listed.

 

[Winston Smith]

Here are some typical antisemitic themes.

Jews are rich

Jews are manipulative.

Jews exert too much influence.

Jews are only loyal to other Jews.

Jews use the holocaust to gain an advantage over others.

Jews act like Nazis.

Jews are sneaky, biased, conniving, secretive, and use others to get what they want.


Now, this may fly right over your head because I'm sure you want it to, but just changing the word "Jew" to "Zionist" here does not provide some sort of magical, get out of jail free card to everybody. When people cross the line into all the familiar antisemitic canards, they ARE indulging in antisemitism, even when they attempt the phony ruse of substituting the state of Israel or the term zionist for Jew.

You're not going to understand this, but I'm going to explain it anyway for the benefit of any fair-minded people who may be confused by the sheer volume of personal attacks and slander with which you've inundated this forum. The nature of anti-Semitic canards and other stereotypes is that they reason from the general to the specific. To take your first example, "You know X has plenty of money...after all, he's a Jew" would be such a stereotype. It takes a generalization about a certain group and applies it invalidly to a specific person or people.

A non-stereotypical statement would be, for example, "AIPAC contributes X number of dollars to political campaigns, so this indicates a certain amount of influence." Why is this non-stereotypical? Because it reasons from the specific to the general, not the other way around. It is in fact the opposite of the kind of thinking you claim to abhor.

Put another way, the fact that not all Jews are rich does not mean that all Jews are poor. That fact that the statements you listed are stereotypes does not mean I have to categorically accept their negatives in order to avoid stereotyping. That would be a logical fallacy. Unfortunately, you rely on this fallacy over and over again in your posts here. That's why, in your view, it is racist to discuss AIPAC's role in shaping American policy. You're indulging in a reverse form of the same bad reasoning of which you accuse others. To illustrate, your logical path looks like this:

- Improper generalizations about Jews are stereotypes.
- Therefore, improper generalizations about Israel are stereotypes (this step is valid, and it's the one you spend the most time defending).
- Therefore, specific negative statements about Israel are stereotypes (this is where you have the problem).

It can easily be seen that if the third assertion is accepted, it gives you an absolutely iron-clad argument against anyone who criticizes Israel. It's equally easy to see that this assertion is not only false, but demonstrably false, and that it's the sole basis for almost every single post that you make here. Your reasoning doesn't hold up and couldn't hold up regardless of whether we were talking about Jews, Zionists, French Impressionists, or anyone else.

 

[Gardener]

You're not going to understand this,

No, I understand exactly what you are all about.

 

[Tashah]

Moderator's Warning:

I've seen enough. This thread has devolved into an abyss of innuendo and attack. Thread closed.