French MPs vote to ban Islamic full veil in public

[bub]

Two quick facts

1) the law does not only ban the burqa, it forbids people to cover their faces in public. The maximum fine is 150€

2) the law creates a new crime: someone who forces someone else to wear a burqa or threatens/attacks someone because she does not wear one, will get a 30.000€ fine and will spend 1 year in jail. The aim of the law is clearly to protect women.

Lalibre.be - Les députés français votent l'interdiction du voile intégral

 

[Degreez]

Two quick facts

1) the law does not only ban the burqa, it forbids people to cover their faces in public. The maximum fine is 150€

2) the law creates a new crime: someone who forces someone else to wear a burqa or threatens/attacks someone because she does not wear one, will get a 30.000€ fine and will spend 1 year in jail. The aim of this part of the law is clearly to protect women.

Lalibre.be - Les députés français votent l'interdiction du voile intégral

Fixed.

#1 has nothing to do with 'protecting' women, especially when it infriges on the rights of those women who don't need institutionalized 'protection'.

 

[MaggieD]

@ Bub -- Interesting information, but aren't there laws already on the books to punish people for threatening or attacking someone else? I have to agree with Degreez.

 

[paris]

Actually, this new wave of Islamic fundamentalism in Europe is a recently imported phenomenon. As you correctly point out, Muslims have been in Europe for a very long time. French Muslims especially were and still are some of the most moderate and secular on the continent, precisely due to the fact that they've been there the longest.

The new wave of ultra conservative Islam is the product of recently arrived immigrants. The danger comes from a trend I've been noticing in some European countries where this conservative doctrine is infecting some of the communities that have been in Europe for decades. It does have the potential to spread and must definitely be monitored.

That said, France's Muslim population is still the most secular, modern, moderate Muslim population on the continent. Which makes this silly ban doubly stupid. I believe it will only help the case of those ultra conservative Muslims and will help spread their ideology rather than stifle it.

Indeed. I have seen more women proudly wearing their hijabs since that debate took place in France.

When are we going to realise that our own prejudices proportionally promote other forms of extremism?

 

[kaya'08]

Fixed.

#1 has nothing to do with 'protecting' women, especially when it infriges on the rights of those women who don't need institutionalized 'protection'.

It has nothing to do with religion either since the Niqab and Islam are loosely, if at all, related.
The law clearly forbids anybody from covering there faces which clearly has every intention to address a security issue which has helped criminals and terrorists to evade authorities in the past. The wearing of public viels of that type are also a security issue which could pose a threat to the integrity of the safety of our streets. The Niqab has been abused increasingly by the Taliban and Al Qaeda to use women to target security forces, namely in Iraq.

It might be tolerated there, but not in Europe.

 

[Arcana XV]

Indeed. I have seen more women proudly wearing their hijabs since that debate took place in France.

When are we going to realise that our own prejudices proportionally promote other forms of extremism?

That doesn't surprise me in the slightest. French Muslim women are very feisty. I guess all that secular indoctrination really works. They've been taught their whole lives in the secular French schools that they are equal to men and are free to chose their own fate and to live their lives any way they see fit. It's no wonder they get mad as hell when the government now tries to dictate to them how they should or should not dress. It's all very ironic.

 

[Arcana XV]

But Shiite muslims who wear Burqa's are NOT secular, otherwise they would not wear it.

Burqa wearers are an extreme minority. Niqab wearers (most of whom are Sunni, btw) are a bit more numerous, but nowhere near enough to warrant the over-reaction of an outright ban. I absolutely believe that it will make things worse, not better. This whole controversy is serving the interests of the ultra-conservative minority and will backfire.

 

[kaya'08]

QUICK NOTE!!

I said Niqab here:

It has nothing to do with religion either since the Niqab and Islam are loosely, if at all, related.

The Niqab has been abused increasingly by the Taliban and Al Qaeda to use women to target security forces, namely in Iraq.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...slamic-full-veil-public-3.html#post1058855656

I meant the Burqa.

 

[kaya'08]

Burqa wearers are an extreme minority. Niqab wearers (most of whom are Sunni, btw) are a bit more numerous, but nowhere near enough to warrant the over-reaction of an outright ban. I absolutely believe that it will make things worse, not better. This whole controversy is serving the interests of the ultra-conservative minority and will backfire.

There is nothing paticularly wrong with Niqab wearers. If im not mistaken that actually is a requirement by religious Islam. And i know from historical proof that Sunni Muslims, being the much more moderate bunch that they are, are capable of indoctrinating Democratic and free/secular values.

Its the Shiites where the problem exists.

In regards to this backfiring, i cant see how. They will leave the country at worst.

 

[paris]

Burqa wearers are an extreme minority. Niqab wearers (most of whom are Sunni, btw) are a bit more numerous, but nowhere near enough to warrant the over-reaction of an outright ban. I absolutely believe that it will make things worse, not better. This whole controversy is serving the interests of the ultra-conservative minority and will backfire.

Yes. I also believe it is serving the interests of the ultra-conservative minorities, on both aisles of the religious divide. If I were a religious wingnut, I would be pretty happy about it. As an atheist, it makes me pretty sad.

 

[Arcana XV]

There is nothing paticularly wrong with Niqab wearers. If im not mistaken that actually is a requirement by religious Islam. And i know from historical proof that Sunni Muslims, being the much more moderate bunch that they are, are capable of indoctrinating Democratic and free/secular values.

Its the Shiites where the problem exists.

In regards to this backfiring, i cant see how. They will leave the country at worst.

Umm.. there's really very little difference between burka and niqab, you know. You're thinking of hijab.

 

[Laila]

Banning the burqas to empower women is like trying to put out a fire with gasoline, I'm sorry but this is stupid. This is playing into the hands of those conservatives.

If people who support this ban actually think that suddenly these women will disregard their beliefs and views stop wearing the burqas is deluded all this will do is force them to become prisoners within their own homes. Way to score a own goal France.

This ban imo has little to do with feminism or women rights but rather a rise of prejudices and a pandering to those who subscribe to such views.

 

[digsbe]

There is another thread about this, so I am going to copy and past my response from there into this thread.
I don't like this at all. I think it infringes upon a woman's right to wear the veil if she choses to for cultural/religious reasons. I think it's wrong for men to force women to wear the veil, but I don't think it justifies banning it. I'm sure for some it holds religious value, and other's it is traditional. Many believe it is a sign of modesty. I think France just stepped on the rights of people with this ruling. It infringes upon religious, cultural, and women's rights. If they were to do anything, it would be passing a law that prohibits men from forcing a woman to wear the veil via threatening to divorce them/kill/beat them.

 

[lizzie]

If Muslim men are oppressing their women banning burkas and niqabs is not going to prevent this. Better to spend the time or money in support networks and in educating women about their rights in western society.

I doubt many women will give up their religious customs just because they have rights in western societies. In my experience, having known a good number of Muslims, many view westerners in general as decadent and morally inferior.

 

[kaya'08]

Umm.. there's really very little difference between burka and niqab, you know. You're thinking of hijab.

:mrgreen:

Im so stupid.

 

[kaya'08]

I doubt many women will give up their religious customs just because they have rights in western societies. In my experience, having known a good number of Muslims, many view westerners in general as decadent and morally inferior.

How ironic they should think that. We dont need people like that over here. Hopefully this ban will drive them out to an opressive, violent and authoritarian country in the Middle East since they despise our freedoms so much.

 

[bub]

Fixed.

#1 has nothing to do with 'protecting' women, especially when it infriges on the rights of those women who don't need institutionalized 'protection'.

Just compare the two fines: 150€ against 30,000€. That is very clear.

 

[bub]

Banning the burqas to empower women is like trying to put out a fire with gasoline, I'm sorry but this is stupid. This is playing into the hands of those conservatives.

If people who support this ban actually think that suddenly these women will disregard their beliefs and views stop wearing the burqas is deluded all this will do is force them to become prisoners within their own homes. Way to score a own goal France.

This ban imo has little to do with feminism or women rights but rather a rise of prejudices and a pandering to those who subscribe to such views.

No, the basic assumption is that in many cases, it is NOT their beliefs and they are obliged to wear the burqa; that is why the law punishes those who force them to wear that.

The second basic assumption is that it is better to ban it in public and avoid these cases where women are forced to wear it, rather than maintain the current situation, where some women choose to wear it but some others are forced to wear it.

 

[alexa]

However this is dressed up, it is a discrimination in disguise. Only a minority of women wear these garments in any European country. Many have made clear it is their choice. Indeed prior to 9/11 there was no problem with women wearing these garments. Nobody said a thing. Seems the problem has occurred since women have openly said they are choosing to wear them.

All European countries have available resources and laws to help anyone who is oppressed and if more is needed in that way or Muslim women are seen to have particular needs, then it is up to the country to provide appropriate help, not for us to give up on our freedoms.

To claim you are wanting to protect a woman and then to fine her is ridiculous.

Of course arguments can be provided to back up absolutely anything but the reality is this is State oppression against the rights of women to wear want they want.

I hope they all come out wearing their burkas. In fact I think everyone should start wearing them. Paris I am sure you will join in.

 

[bub]

However this is dressed up, it is a discrimination in disguise. Only a minority of women wear these garments in any European country. Many have made clear it is their choice. Indeed prior to 9/11 there was no problem with women wearing these garments. Nobody said a thing. Seems the problem has occurred since women have openly said they are choosing to wear them.

They seem to be in increasing numbers, and it looks like it's not always a choice

All European countries have available resources and laws to help anyone who is oppressed and if more is needed in that way or Muslim women are seen to have particular needs, then it is up to the country to provide appropriate help, not for us to give up on our freedoms.

To claim you are wanting to protect a woman and then to fine her is ridiculous.

Every ban is designed to protect some interest: kids cannot drink vodka because we want to protect their health, and if they do drink they'll (or the guy who gave them vodka) be fined. There are speed limits because we want to protect our lives, too, you do not have the "freedom" to drive very fast, and if you do so you'll get fined.

A law needs incentives to work, there must be a sanction. Then, the fine is small compared to the punishment you get if you force someone to wear a burqa.

Of course arguments can be provided to back up absolutely anything but the reality is this is State oppression against the rights of women to wear want they want.

I hope they all come out wearing their burkas. In fact I think everyone should start wearing them. Paris I am sure you will join in.

It's as if you started working as a slave to protest against the interdiction of slavery, saying "it's the choice of some of them to work 16/24 7/7 without being paid".

 

[alexa]

They seem to be in increasing numbers, and it looks like it's not always a choice

I agree they are increasing in numbers but not alarmingly. Indeed I think in the UK they surged after the aftermath of 9/11 but have since reduced. Burkas are extremely uncomfortable to wear. As far as those choosing to this has a number of reasons, one of them being a reaction to anti-islam. As far as those who are wearing not through choice, I would imagine this is in the main, new immigrants. I see no reason it is not possible to make sure all new immigrants are well aware of their rights and the laws within the country.

Every ban is designed to protect some interest: kids cannot drink vodka because we want to protect their health, and if they do drink they'll (or the guy who gave them vodka) be fined. There are speed limits because we want to protect our lives, too, you do not have the "freedom" to drive very fast, and if you do so you'll get fined.

Indeed and this ban is to protect the citizens from Muslims. Do you think such a ban will encourage integration? It is treating them as lesser beings. Beings who do not have the ability to make their choice.

A law needs incentives to work, there must be a sanction. Then, the fine is small compared to the punishment you get if you force someone to wear a burqa.

The fine shows the absurdity of the argument. The argument is that the woman is oppressed and forced to wear a burka. Then having apparently been forced to do this the state then fines her. Punishing a person for being oppressed is indeed a new one to me.

 

[SgtRock]

Viva la France, the ban is a step in the right direction. But they still have a way to go in protecting thier heritage and culture from islamization.

 

[rivrrat]

However this is dressed up, it is a discrimination in disguise. Only a minority of women wear these garments in any European country. Many have made clear it is their choice. Indeed prior to 9/11 there was no problem with women wearing these garments. Nobody said a thing. Seems the problem has occurred since women have openly said they are choosing to wear them.

All European countries have available resources and laws to help anyone who is oppressed and if more is needed in that way or Muslim women are seen to have particular needs, then it is up to the country to provide appropriate help, not for us to give up on our freedoms.

To claim you are wanting to protect a woman and then to fine her is ridiculous.

Of course arguments can be provided to back up absolutely anything but the reality is this is State oppression against the rights of women to wear want they want.

I hope they all come out wearing their burkas. In fact I think everyone should start wearing them. Paris I am sure you will join in.

There's no way in hell something that oppressive and stupid could ever go over here in the states. But if in some alternate reality it did, I would wear one in protest of such nonsense.

 

[Arcana XV]

You know what I think this ban is all about? This is very similar to the Swiss vote banning the construction of new minrets. It's a way of telling Muslims that there's a line they won't be allowed to cross. It's not necessary, it's uselessly controversial and its only redeeming value is that it sends a clear message to the Muslim community. As it stands, this law still has to be ratified in the Senate and will then be scrutinized by judges to make sure it's not unconstitutional.

If the goal was really to help "liberate" women they would never be expected to pay a fine. It makes no sense whatsoever to put additional burdens on the "oppressed". Their husbands or fathers should be the target of this law and, if they really are guilty of oppressing their wives and daughers, a fine is really not enough of a punishment. There is so much wrong with the way this was thought out, it's not even funny.

 

[bub]

Indeed and this ban is to protect the citizens from Muslims

No, it's to protect the well-being of some women who are forced to wear burqas, and to protect our security (everyone should be recognizable while walking in the streets, if your face is covered the security cameras are useless)

Do you think such a ban will encourage integration?

Since burqas prevent integration, yes

It is treating them as lesser beings.

It is considering them as equal; burqas turn them into lesser beings.

The fine shows the absurdity of the argument.

The 150€ fine concerns the security reasons (not covering your face in public). The small importance of the fine, compared to the 30,000€ fine for those who force women to wear burqas, shows what is the main priority of the law.