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French MPs paid from Russian coffers for Crimea propaganda trip?

Really. How interesting. But you are right that Russia has never been able to successfully innovate democratic procedure. It did have a certain period in which it seemed to be making progress. But it was incapable of sustaining the momentum.

When was that period exactly in our opinion?!?
Pls don't tell me it was under Yeltsin or I'm gonna spit my tea all over my brand new Wacom tablet.

Fallen.
 
When was that period exactly in our opinion?!?
Pls don't tell me it was under Yeltsin or I'm gonna spit my tea all over my brand new Wacom tablet.

Fallen.

Take a sip! Spit now. But it was a little longer than that.
 
Take a sip! Spit now. But it was a little longer than that.

See...and that is why you "don't get" Russia.

Because for you in the 90's Russia was apparently making progress in some right direction, while in fact the country was in ruins; radicalised and unstable Caucasus, poverty, lack of jobs, rampant crime and corruption and so many other things both on the domestic and international stage that engraved this period as a negative one in most Russian's memories.

Fallen.
 
Simpleχity has a very long history of spamming DP on a daily basis

And who are YOU to judge what is and is not "spam"? (In fact, it is ground ham with 27% fat-content.)

You're not "spamming" with your perpetual whining? Stick to the debate and forget the personal invective.
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I've stated multiple times that you got so caught up in your own butthurt and bs that you lost any sense of integrity or decency, using terms like ruSSians and posting fakes, and falsehoods

The invasion of eastern Ukraine by Russian troops (without identity tags) was a fake? The annexing of Crimea was a fake or a falsehood?

What planet do you live on ... ?
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And who are YOU to judge what is and is not "spam"? (In fact, it is ground ham with 27% fat-content.)

You're not "spamming" with your perpetual whining? Stick to the debate and forget the personal invective.
_________________

Spam ... dunno, like starting copy pasta threads in different sub-forums, posting countless posts and threads on a daily basis...
If you still didn't get my original point, it was exactly about the fact that there is nothing to debate in the OP as it is simply an opinion piece from a highly biased source. If I'd post an article about US foreign policy from Sputnik, you'd rightfully call that bs propaganda and rightfully move on, yet here you for some reason feel the need to defend the thread and OP.

The invasion of eastern Ukraine by Russian troops (without identity tags) was a fake? The annexing of Crimea was a fake or a falsehood?

What planet do you live on ... ?
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I live on a planet where supposedly free and democratic media and experts;
a. omit people's speech from interviews to support a point their report wants to make - BBC,
b. use fakes in its coverage of the conflict - CNN,
c. supposed experts that advise to a NATO commander use fakes in their presentations and arguments - Karber
d. where fakes like portable Russian crematoriums, and pics from SBU/Ukrainian government are almost unanimously promoted and trusted - multiple MSM
...I can give you soooo many more examples, these are just a few off the top of my head.

The thing is that MSM went full retard during Maidan coverage and this idiocy played an important role not only in instigating the conflict but also in perpetuating it throughout the years. Russian propaganda is very crude and relies on simple disinformation and denial of obvious facts, the propaganda spread by supposedly independent experts and journalists in the west is not much different, it's just quite a bit more subtle and stems from personal bias, stupidity and complete lack of professionalism. I gotta admit that it is really amusing though, to observe how MSM now slowly started to realise that Ukrainian government and the people that Maidan brought to power aren't really democracy loving puppies.

Funnily enough your own blanket statements you've made above show complete lack of any understanding of the conflict and its roots.
First of all, maybe you should ask yourself why Russia returned Crimea to itself, just a hint the answer isn't "Cause Putin is Hitler! Damn those evil ruSSians and their Crimean collaborators!".

Fallen.
 
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See...and that is why you "don't get" Russia.

Because for you in the 90's Russia was apparently making progress in some right direction, while in fact the country was in ruins; radicalised and unstable Caucasus, poverty, lack of jobs, rampant crime and corruption and so many other things both on the domestic and international stage that engraved this period as a negative one in most Russian's memories.

Fallen.

Oh, I got that Russia was in ruins. Know it, went there, got the t-shirt. Massive mess of long standing. But the help from outside was there, the investors were lined up and the people were well educated and hungry. Everything was in place for a wonderful future. But instead of fixing the problems the people snatched for cash and let corruption ride. I saw this in other countries too. Oh, Russia had a chance alright. A really good chance. But it failed and now has an autocracy ruling by populism and coercion sometimes brutal.
 

Yes, you've fallen into an Information Trap. Which is not serious, but it is debilitating. (I do it too.)

I suggest that you let go of the BBC (which is not as neutral as one might be led to think). And, I honestly suggest that you get a subscription to the Economist. Which tries to straddle both Left and Right - thus, by doing so, comes right down in the middle.

I am Center Left so I read much of the Guardian. I read occassionaly the NYT or WashPo, but american journalism is in a such a sorry state, that is has little continuity. All that matters is what can capture the eye today, right now.

Because it is far too heavily commercialized. As is mostly everything. If you can't put a price-tag stateside on an object or a subject, then general interest is sub-zero. Americans only understand one yardstick: Money, money, money. (Or, worse yet: Food, food, food.)

This is no subliminal joke. The attachment to monetary value has resulted in Generalized News Inflation. All news is Prime Time, and thrust at a hungry-public that revels in its consumption. Which is why my fellow Yanks move from subject to subject, hit a high, and then move onto another. Without the slightest pause and discussion of "What does it mean?". Or, "Is it important?". Or "Maybe we should discuss this in both finer and larger detail".

We are living at light-speed. Meaning this: "History is five minutes ago, and Ancient History is yesterday". Forget, move on, anyway the subject will come around again soon enough ... and, after a five minutes of consideration, "We'll move on again anyway".

George Santayana, Spanish-American philosopher (paraphrased): Those who forget the meaning of history are condemned to repeat it ...
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Oh, I got that Russia was in ruins. Know it, went there, got the t-shirt. Massive mess of long standing. But the help from outside was there, the investors were lined up and the people were well educated and hungry. Everything was in place for a wonderful future. But instead of fixing the problems the people snatched for cash and let corruption ride. I saw this in other countries too. Oh, Russia had a chance alright. A really good chance. But it failed and now has an autocracy ruling by populism and coercion sometimes brutal.

You still don't get it though imo, the point wasn't about the fact that Russia was in ruins but about the people that brought it to that state. The chance you are talking about was never really there, this notion was promoted in the West and in Russia by the same people that turned Russia in to ruins. These same people robbed Russia of its riches and divided between themselves its budget, foreign credits and whatever remained of its industry.

The people that you praise as supposed beacons of democracy actually robbed the country and brought it to a pathetic state which most Russians hated.

Fallen.
 
Yes, you've fallen into an Information Trap. Which is not serious, but it is debilitating. (I do it too.)

I suggest that you let go of the BBC (which is not as neutral as one might be led to think). And, I honestly suggest that you get a subscription to the Economist. Which tries to straddle both Left and Right - thus, by doing so, comes right down in the middle.

I am Center Left so I read much of the Guardian. I read occassionaly the NYT or WashPo, but american journalism is in a such a sorry state, that is has little continuity. All that matters is what can capture the eye today, right now.

Because it is far too heavily commercialized. As is mostly everything. If you can't put a price-tag stateside on an object or a subject, then general interest is sub-zero. Americans only understand one yardstick: Money, money, money. (Or, worse yet: Food, food, food.)

This is no subliminal joke. The attachment to monetary value has resulted in Generalized News Inflation. All news is Prime Time, and thrust at a hungry-public that revels in its consumption. Which is why my fellow Yanks move from subject to subject, hit a high, and then move onto another. Without the slightest pause and discussion of "What does it mean?". Or, "Is it important?". Or "Maybe we should discuss this in both finer and larger detail".

We are living at light-speed. Meaning this: "History is five minutes ago, and Ancient History is yesterday". Forget, move on, anyway the subject will come around again soon enough ... and, after a five minutes of consideration, "We'll move on again anyway".

George Santayana, Spanish-American philosopher (paraphrased): Those who forget the meaning of history are condemned to repeat it ...
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It is not about a single/multiple news sources or right-left, but about a general sentiment that is being promoted and thrives in the political/cultural elites and the MSM. Constructive decision making can't be made without the proper and factual basis for it, when facts are being replaced by fakes and cheap propaganda pieces, the decision making suffers on all levels (true for Russia as well). In addition to an artificial prolongation of hostilities it also builds up resentment on national levels, which in turn fuels ignorant black vs. white views like the ones you've posted above.

People that know **** about what they are talking about, or others that purposefully spread badly written opinion pieces and falsehoods are now getting the stage, more and more influencing international decision making, that is just really sad to see. This is my main gripe here.

Fallen.
 
DEFECATION

People that know **** about what they are talking about, or others that purposefully spread badly written opinion pieces and falsehoods are now getting the stage, more and more influencing international decision making, that is just really sad to see. This is my main gripe here.

Regardless of the title, this is not a "Debate Forum". Which I know well. Such a forum has "rules" that assure a proper debate (to and fro with meaning and structured substantiation of argument based upon fact and not emotion).

It's just a message board and all-comers can join and say whatever they want. Then, some, having defecated, feel relieved, so they move on to yet another message-board (where they defecate intellectually yet again) ...
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You still don't get it though imo, the point wasn't about the fact that Russia was in ruins but about the people that brought it to that state. The chance you are talking about was never really there, this notion was promoted in the West and in Russia by the same people that turned Russia in to ruins. These same people robbed Russia of its riches and divided between themselves its budget, foreign credits and whatever remained of its industry.

The people that you praise as supposed beacons of democracy actually robbed the country and brought it to a pathetic state which most Russians hated.

Fallen.


Yeltsin, Putin were crooks along with many more. Sure. Nobody could deny that with a straight face. But that does not let Russians off the hook in any way.
 
DEFECATION



Regardless of the title, this is not a "Debate Forum". Which I know well. Such a forum has "rules" that assure a proper debate (to and fro with meaning and structured substantiation of argument based upon fact and not emotion).

It's just a message board and all-comers can join and say whatever they want. Then, some, having defecated, feel relieved, so they move on to yet another message-board (where they defecate intellectually yet again) ...
___________________________

I wasn't talking exclusively about DP, what happens on DP is just a small symptom of a general malaise that I've described above.

Fallen.
 
Yeltsin, Putin were crooks along with many more. Sure. Nobody could deny that with a straight face. But that does not let Russians off the hook in any way.

It's not about letting anyone off the hook, it's about people not having a slightest idea about different aspects of Russian internal and external affairs and the driving forces behind the processes that the country went through in the past few decades. Lack of this understanding and praise for ideas like the supposed glorious and free Russia's 90's, constantly lead to misjudgement of Russia's interests and complete absence of any sensible policy when it comes to Russia.

Fallen.
 
It's not about letting anyone off the hook, it's about people not having a slightest idea about different aspects of Russian internal and external affairs and the driving forces behind the processes that the country went through in the past few decades. Lack of this understanding and praise for ideas like the supposed glorious and free Russia's 90's, constantly lead to misjudgement of Russia's interests and complete absence of any sensible policy when it comes to Russia.

Fallen.

Had the supposed glorious '90's been even close to that, Russia would not be the danger it has become. But that has nothing to do with the fact that they had a wonderful chance that the Russians blew.
 
Had the supposed glorious '90's been even close to that, Russia would not be the danger it has become. But that has nothing to do with the fact that they had a wonderful chance that the Russians blew.
A few years ago I had the opportunity to spend some time in the small city of Kargopol, Russia. It is a city of about 10,000 or so located about 300 miles east of St. Petersburg.

My wife, daughter, and father-in-law set out from St. Petersburg early one morning and arrived in Kargopol late that evening. Along the way I kept noticing large abandoned buildings and building projects that were not completed. At first I wasn't really sure what they were because most of them looked like bombed out ruins. It turns out that they were all incomplete projects abandoned at the same time... the day the Soviet Union collapsed. What should have been about an 8 hour journey took closer to 14 hours because of the terrible road conditions. Once you get outside of St. Petersburg the roads deteriorate very quickly because there has been very little repair or maintenance done since 1991.

From my perspective you are greatly overestimating the "wonderful chance" Russia "blew". The collapse of the Soviet Union was devastating.
 
A few years ago I had the opportunity to spend some time in the small city of Kargopol, Russia. It is a city of about 10,000 or so located about 300 miles east of St. Petersburg.

My wife, daughter, and father-in-law set out from St. Petersburg early one morning and arrived in Kargopol late that evening. Along the way I kept noticing large abandoned buildings and building projects that were not completed. At first I wasn't really sure what they were because most of them looked like bombed out ruins. It turns out that they were all incomplete projects abandoned at the same time... the day the Soviet Union collapsed. What should have been about an 8 hour journey took closer to 14 hours because of the terrible road conditions. Once you get outside of St. Petersburg the roads deteriorate very quickly because there has been very little repair or maintenance done since 1991.

From my perspective you are greatly overestimating the "wonderful chance" Russia "blew". The collapse of the Soviet Union was devastating.

Sounds like all of Eastern Europe in the early and mid 1990s and parts even now.
 
Had the supposed glorious '90's been even close to that, Russia would not be the danger it has become. But that has nothing to do with the fact that they had a wonderful chance that the Russians blew.

The 90's have everything to do with Russian current policies and what currently drives its interest.
You repeating this crap about the "chance that Russians blew" doesn't make it true...for the who knows what time, there was no chance, it only existed in the minds of daydreamers, that for some reason believed that people like Yeltsin will magically turn a collapsed world superpower into Switzerland.


Fallen.
 
Sounds like all of Eastern Europe in the early and mid 1990s and parts even now.
The iron curtain set that entire part of the world back about 50 years compared to western civilization. They've still got a lot of catching up to do.
 
The 90's have everything to do with Russian current policies and what currently drives its interest.
You repeating this crap about the "chance that Russians blew" doesn't make it true...for the who knows what time, there was no chance, it only existed in the minds of daydreamers, that for some reason believed that people like Yeltsin will magically turn a collapsed world superpower into Switzerland.


Fallen.

Bunk! Some do well like Poland and some act like third worlders strongmen and all.
 
The iron curtain set that entire part of the world back about 50 years compared to western civilization. They've still got a lot of catching up to do.

That is quite true. But I liked it in most of the larger region I visited.
 
Bunk! Some do well like Poland and some act like third worlders strongmen and all.

Did you just seriously compare Poland to Russia?!?!?!?! They are drastically different and evolved differently.
Both countries have absolutely different population sizes, national compositions, territories, different interests, different views on their role in the world and the world viewed and views them completely differently.


Fallen.
 
Did you just seriously compare Poland to Russia?!?!?!?! They are drastically different and evolved differently.
Both countries have absolutely different population sizes, national compositions, territories, different interests, different views on their role in the world and the world viewed and views them completely differently.


Fallen.

No need to look for excuses. ;)
 
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