• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

French flag tribute to Pope sparks left-wing anger

RightinNYC

Girthless
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
25,894
Reaction score
12,484
Location
New York, NY
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L04128460.htm

Politicians in secular France squabbled over whether the government had been right to order flags lowered on public buildings in a sign of respect for Pope John Paul.
Interior Minister Dominique de Villepin defended the government's move, saying the lowering of the flag was one of the "Republican customs" when a pope died.

"They have been applied at the occasion of the deaths of Pius XII, John XXIII and John Paul I," the interior ministry said in a statement.

Once so Catholic it was known as the "elder daughter of the Church", France has imposed a strict separation of church and state for 100 years to keep religion from provoking the bloody strife it sparked in previous centuries.
The row underscores the unpopular government's weakness as it struggles to convince hostile voters to back the European Union constitution in a referendum next month.
 

Squawker

Professor
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
1,314
Reaction score
4
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
That isn't any surprise. I have been reading some other forums and the left absolutely hates the Pope and anything he stands for. I have never seen a more self serving, hateful group as the modern left wing. I swear all the decent people left the party, and the only ones still in it are the extremists. They did the same thing when President Reagan died. They spewed so much hate, it was truly disgusting. I disagree with the left on their political stands, but trashing dead people is beyond the pale. :roll:
 

RightinNYC

Girthless
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
25,894
Reaction score
12,484
Location
New York, NY
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
Squawker said:
That isn't any surprise. I have been reading some other forums and the left absolutely hates the Pope and anything he stands for. I have never seen a more self serving, hateful group as the modern left wing. I swear all the decent people left the party, and the only ones still in it are the extremists. They did the same thing when President Reagan died. They spewed so much hate, it was truly disgusting. I disagree with the left on their political stands, but trashing dead people is beyond the pale. :roll:
I've seen people on the left say things such as "The right celebrated when Arafat died, so why shouldn't we celebrate when the Pope dies?"

Hmmmm, maybe because the Pope is a great, moral, kind man, who made millions, (actually, probably billions) of peoples lives better, while Arafat was a terrorist who contributed to the total lack of mideast peace progress.

Never convince them of that though....
 

Arch Enemy

Familiaist
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 27, 2005
Messages
7,470
Reaction score
2,085
Location
North Carolina
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
There's the French Government for you.

Arch waits for Mr Franklin to check this out and come up with some total bs.
 

Squawker

Professor
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
1,314
Reaction score
4
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I don't get it either. They defend the indefensible, and hate anyone who disagrees with them or their views. It isn't just a disagreement, it is out and out vile. Good grief, they don't own the friggin world last time I looked. How can we ever have world peace when we have such radical views from the far left "progressives" and far right "Muslims". :shock:
 

Fried Rice

Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2005
Messages
177
Reaction score
7
Squawker said:
I don't get it either. They defend the indefensible, and hate anyone who disagrees with them or their views. It isn't just a disagreement, it is out and out vile. Good grief, they don't own the friggin world last time I looked. How can we ever have world peace when we have such radical views from the far left "progressives" and far right "Muslims". :shock:
For a moment i thought you must be talking about the USA :doh
 

26 X World Champs

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 6, 2005
Messages
7,536
Reaction score
429
Location
Upper West Side of Manhattan (10024)
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Squawker said:
That isn't any surprise. I have been reading some other forums and the left absolutely hates the Pope and anything he stands for. I have never seen a more self serving, hateful group as the modern left wing. I swear all the decent people left the party, and the only ones still in it are the extremists. They did the same thing when President Reagan died. They spewed so much hate, it was truly disgusting. I disagree with the left on their political stands, but trashing dead people is beyond the pale. :roll:
How can you, in all good conscience make such an untrue generalization? It would be like my saying that all Republicans hate Non-Christians. It would be a total and complete untruth.

Me thinks that you might be confusing people not accepting the dogma of the Catholic church as hate. I.E. I disagree sternly about the Pope's stance on abortion and birth control...BUT...I agree completely on his stance against the Iraq War & the death penalty. Does that mean that I, a professed left winger hate the Pope? Does it mean I am morally void?

Once thing I do want to say, I am really dumbfounded at the wall to wall coverage of the Pope's death. I realize he had a lot of sheep in his flock, but this overkill and over analysis turns me off, a lot. That doesn't mean I hate the Pope. It does mean that to me there are many more important events that deserve to be news items besides repeating over and over again the same stuff about the Pope.

The use of generalizations to bash the left is, in itself a true reflection of the author's hate for liberals, the same hate he professes that disgusts him. Isn't that what being a hypocrite is defined as? :2nobashin
 

RightinNYC

Girthless
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
25,894
Reaction score
12,484
Location
New York, NY
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
26 X World Champs said:
Once thing I do want to say, I am really dumbfounded at the wall to wall coverage of the Pope's death. I realize he had a lot of sheep in his flock, but this overkill and over analysis turns me off, a lot. That doesn't mean I hate the Pope. It does mean that to me there are many more important events that deserve to be news items besides repeating over and over again the same stuff about the Pope.
The majority of people surveyed felt that this Pope was one of, if not the greatest Pope since St. Peter 2000 years ago. He had the second longest reign of all time, and one one of the most respected and universally loved persons ever.

He was the religious leader for over 1.1 BILLION people, and had more (positive) worldwide impact than arguably anyone else in the 20th century.

How are you surprised?
 

26 X World Champs

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 6, 2005
Messages
7,536
Reaction score
429
Location
Upper West Side of Manhattan (10024)
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
RightatNYU said:
The majority of people surveyed felt that this Pope was one of, if not the greatest Pope since St. Peter 2000 years ago. He had the second longest reign of all time, and one one of the most respected and universally loved persons ever.

He was the religious leader for over 1.1 BILLION people, and had more (positive) worldwide impact than arguably anyone else in the 20th century.

How are you surprised?
I do not dispute your facts or the reasoning, but there are lots of other things that are happening too that are being overlooked that should be covered.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a lot of Pope coverage, but wall to wall? How many times do we have to be told the same things over and over again? I would feel the same way for virtually any single human being. Too much is too much. I also understand that the newsies are trying to attract viewers and to not offend, but I am offended by too much coverage of any news story.
 

Squawker

Professor
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
1,314
Reaction score
4
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
The use of generalizations to bash the left is, in itself a true reflection of the author's hate for liberals, the same hate he professes that disgusts him. Isn't that what being a hypocrite is defined as?
I don't hate anyone on the left enough to trash them when they have just died, like the left around the world is doing to the Pope now, and to President Reagan when he died. I don't understand how anyone can be that mean, nasty and self centered. They remind me of the school bully. They huff and puff with insults, but when someone stands up to them, they cry about how abused they are. :roll:
 

26 X World Champs

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 6, 2005
Messages
7,536
Reaction score
429
Location
Upper West Side of Manhattan (10024)
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Squawker said:
I don't hate anyone on the left enough to trash them when they have just died, like the left around the world is doing to the Pope now, and to President Reagan when he died. I don't understand how anyone can be that mean, nasty and self centered. They remind me of the school bully. They huff and puff with insults, but when someone stands up to them, they cry about how abused they are. :roll:
Your reply to my comment about your making ridiculous and untrue generalizations is to make more ridiculous and untrue generalizations? Good job!
:funny:
 

26 X World Champs

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 6, 2005
Messages
7,536
Reaction score
429
Location
Upper West Side of Manhattan (10024)
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Squawker said:
I don't hate anyone on the left enough to trash them when they have just died, like the left around the world is doing to the Pope now, and to President Reagan when he died. I don't understand how anyone can be that mean, nasty and self centered. They remind me of the school bully. They huff and puff with insults, but when someone stands up to them, they cry about how abused they are. :roll:
I'd love to read the obits you'd write about Bill & Hillary Clinton?

What kind words would you write about President Clinton? How about Ted Kennedy? What magnanimous memories would you supply to this forum?
 

Pacridge

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 14, 2004
Messages
3,918
Reaction score
9
Location
Pacific Northwest US
Squawker said:
I don't get it either. They defend the indefensible, and hate anyone who disagrees with them or their views. It isn't just a disagreement, it is out and out vile. Good grief, they don't own the friggin world last time I looked. How can we ever have world peace when we have such radical views from the far left "progressives" and far right "Muslims". :shock:
Ok I'm sorry who's saying this hateful vile stuff about the Pope? I read posts earlier and went to the Air America radio site and started listening. I've been listening to them ever since and I've read through their web site. I would think Air America, home of Al Franken et el, would be about as left as you could get in this country. All I've heard them say are positive things about the pope. Their site has an article about the news media spending a lot of time covering his passing and not covering over new worthy items. There’s also an article about some news channel that reported his death several hours too early. Other than that ever thing I read and everything I’ve heard has been positive. In fact as I typed this post they did a news update, something about his mourner and his body being transferred somewhere. They used the terms “beloved”, “Charismatic” and "globalized tolerance" when referring to the man. So who’s calling the Pope vile?
 

anomaly

Anti-Capitalist
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 20, 2005
Messages
1,020
Reaction score
6
Location
IN
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Squawker said:
I don't hate anyone on the left enough to trash them when they have just died, like the left around the world is doing to the Pope now, and to President Reagan when he died. I don't understand how anyone can be that mean, nasty and self centered. They remind me of the school bully. They huff and puff with insults, but when someone stands up to them, they cry about how abused they are. :roll:
Lenin died some 80 years ago, yet the man is still compared to Stalin, a gross misconception. In fact, I was flipping through channels the other day, and on a Catholic channel I found a 'wise' man speaking comparing Lenin to both Stalin and Hitler! Is that not trashing a dead man (and he's been dead for 80 years)?
 

RightinNYC

Girthless
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
25,894
Reaction score
12,484
Location
New York, NY
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
Pacridge said:
Ok I'm sorry who's saying this hateful vile stuff about the Pope? I read posts earlier and went to the Air America radio site and started listening. I've been listening to them ever since and I've read through their web site. I would think Air America, home of Al Franken et el, would be about as left as you could get in this country. All I've heard them say are positive things about the pope. Their site has an article about the news media spending a lot of time covering his passing and not covering over new worthy items. There’s also an article about some news channel that reported his death several hours too early. Other than that ever thing I read and everything I’ve heard has been positive. In fact as I typed this post they did a news update, something about his mourner and his body being transferred somewhere. They used the terms “beloved”, “Charismatic” and "globalized tolerance" when referring to the man. So who’s calling the Pope vile?
Well, this is just from the past 4 hours, but

urethra franklin said:
Naughty Nurse is 100% correct. The pope was an evil man heading an evil institiution. He perpetrated the inequality of women, and the hatred of gays, and has done more to spread poverty and HIV throughout the world than many other individuals.
Also, over at Democratic Underground, there's the usual collection of those who basically parrot the same thing as Urethra.
 

RightinNYC

Girthless
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
25,894
Reaction score
12,484
Location
New York, NY
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
anomaly said:
Lenin died some 80 years ago, yet the man is still compared to Stalin, a gross misconception. In fact, I was flipping through channels the other day, and on a Catholic channel I found a 'wise' man speaking comparing Lenin to both Stalin and Hitler! Is that not trashing a dead man (and he's been dead for 80 years)?
To most people, Lenin and Stalin aren't very different. And I wouldn't exactly classify them of the same "caliber of dead guy" as the pope. As I said earlier, "trashing a dead man" like Yassir Arafat is different.
 

Pacridge

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 14, 2004
Messages
3,918
Reaction score
9
Location
Pacific Northwest US
RightatNYU said:
Well, this is just from the past 4 hours, but



Also, over at Democratic Underground, there's the usual collection of those who basically parrot the same thing as Urethra.
I see, so this is talking about individual people basically? I could easily go find posts from conservatives that want Michael Moore dead, Or are going to dance on the grave of Bill Clinton when he dies. Hate isn't something that either movement owns or is free from. I listen to Rush and Hannity all the time, it's all my local radio station plays in the afternoon. They both spew hateful vile stuff all the time. They then claim liberals are hateful. Ann Coulter wrote a book- “Slander” In it she claims that Liberals are the reason for the political discourse in this country. In it she also claims that, among other things, liberals hate America more then Islamic terrorists do. Well at least that answers my question as to why all these liberals are taking flight lessons.

Bottom line is niether side can claim innocent in any of this.
 

RightinNYC

Girthless
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
25,894
Reaction score
12,484
Location
New York, NY
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
Pacridge said:
I see, so this is talking about individual people basically? I could easily go find posts from conservatives that want Michael Moore dead, Or are going to dance on the grave of Bill Clinton when he dies. Hate isn't something that either movement owns or is free from. I listen to Rush and Hannity all the time, it's all my local radio station plays in the afternoon. They both spew hateful vile stuff all the time. They then claim liberals are hateful. Ann Coulter wrote a book- “Slander” In it she claims that Liberals are the reason for the political discourse in this country. In it she also claims that, among other things, liberals hate America more then Islamic terrorists do. Well at least that answers my question as to why all these liberals are taking flight lessons.

Bottom line is niether side can claim innocent in any of this.
There's a huge difference between saying you want Bill Clinton dead and actually celebrating when he does die.

I have Slander, and 95% of what Ann says is tongue in cheek, or is meant only to incite the very response you just had. If you're angry at her, you're talking about her.

I'm not claiming any side is innocent, I just know that I would not cherish the death of any decent person.
 

Pacridge

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 14, 2004
Messages
3,918
Reaction score
9
Location
Pacific Northwest US
RightatNYU said:
There's a huge difference between saying you want Bill Clinton dead and actually celebrating when he does die.

I have Slander, and 95% of what Ann says is tongue in cheek, or is meant only to incite the very response you just had. If you're angry at her, you're talking about her.

I'm not claiming any side is innocent, I just know that I would not cherish the death of any decent person.
I have every reason to believe many on the right will be celebrating Bills death. The type of stuff you’re reading now regarding the Pope and the stuff written on boards when Reagan died will be repeated when Clinton passes. In fact I noticed several nasty messages directed at Clinton when he had heart by-pass recently. Kind of “get well cards” in reverse. This notion that “It’s the left they’re just so nasty- the right wouldn’t be like that.” Is BS.

Ann’s book is suppose to be tongue in cheek? I was thinking more foot in mouth. I doubt her book was meant to incite the response she got from me. I read several of her books and own several. I read them and thought she was being honest with me. She absolutely isn’t. Not even slightly. Nor is she usually when she goes on TV. I fact checked her and I didn’t like being lied to.

I wouldn't/won't cheerish anyones death either. Well maybe Saddams and Osama bin Laden's. Maybe.

All seems childish, hurtful and hateful to me. Hate damages the sender more then the receiver.
 

RightinNYC

Girthless
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
25,894
Reaction score
12,484
Location
New York, NY
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
Pacridge said:
I have every reason to believe many on the right will be celebrating Bills death. The type of stuff you’re reading now regarding the Pope and the stuff written on boards when Reagan died will be repeated when Clinton passes. In fact I noticed several nasty messages directed at Clinton when he had heart by-pass recently. Kind of “get well cards” in reverse. This notion that “It’s the left they’re just so nasty- the right wouldn’t be like that.” Is BS.
The vast majority, if not all, of those who deride America constantly, call our soldiers terrorists, side with the Iraq "insurgency," and yes, call the victims of 9/11 little Eichmans, are on the Left.

I'm not referring to those who disagree and debate such as yourself and most of the people on this board, but rather people such as those in youth anarchist movements, and the communist solidarity leagues who start brawls, and create dangerous disorder to "try to prove a point."

I can't name any liberal speakers who were recently attacked with pies, etc while they were on stage, or who were heckled until they couldn't continue speaking.

Ann’s book is suppose to be tongue in cheek? I was thinking more foot in mouth. I doubt her book was meant to incite the response she got from me. I read several of her books and own several. I read them and thought she was being honest with me. She absolutely isn’t. Not even slightly. Nor is she usually when she goes on TV. I fact checked her and I didn’t like being lied to.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'd like to know some examples of lies from Slander (because I have it with me at school).
 

Pacridge

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 14, 2004
Messages
3,918
Reaction score
9
Location
Pacific Northwest US
26 X World Champs said:
How can you, in all good conscience make such an untrue generalization? It would be like my saying that all Republicans hate Non-Christians. It would be a total and complete untruth.

Me thinks that you might be confusing people not accepting the dogma of the Catholic church as hate. I.E. I disagree sternly about the Pope's stance on abortion and birth control...BUT...I agree completely on his stance against the Iraq War & the death penalty. Does that mean that I, a professed left winger hate the Pope? Does it mean I am morally void?

Once thing I do want to say, I am really dumbfounded at the wall to wall coverage of the Pope's death. I realize he had a lot of sheep in his flock, but this overkill and over analysis turns me off, a lot. That doesn't mean I hate the Pope. It does mean that to me there are many more important events that deserve to be news items besides repeating over and over again the same stuff about the Pope.

The use of generalizations to bash the left is, in itself a true reflection of the author's hate for liberals, the same hate he professes that disgusts him. Isn't that what being a hypocrite is defined as? :2nobashin
I think you hit the nail on the head with the generalization comment.

I first read the post about the left hating the Pope and celebrating his death, which I’m sure they are some people doing that. But that’s certainly not the mainstream liberals or the mainstream left. This whole “the left spews hate” stuff is really misguided. As I said in several other posts I listen to Rush, Hannity and Paul Harvey almost anytime I get in my truck during the week (yeah, I live in the sticks and drive a truck-no I don't have any pictures of my truck in my wallet, yes I do have pictures of my wife in there). Out of the three Harvey’s the only one that doesn’t spew hate on an on going basis. In contrast I’m listening to Air America via the net right now, have been ever since I read Squawkers post about the left hating the Pope. I’ve been listening to it while I’ve been on line all night now, almost 4 hours. I have yet to hear anything but positive stuff about Jean Paul II. Right now as I type this post Franken’s show is being re-run. He and some other woman (?) are taking about the Pope and basically all the good things he did. That he gave an apology to the guy that shot him and went and visited the man in prison and some stuff about making apologies for the holocaust. Then there’s a bunch about some stuff he did for African nations. For a movement that hates a guy- they sure do talk nice about him.

Ok now they’re talking about Bush, Haliburton and KBR, ok those guys they dislike intensely, probably even hate. But still they don’t sound nearly has vile and hateful as Rush or Hannity.
 

Pacridge

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 14, 2004
Messages
3,918
Reaction score
9
Location
Pacific Northwest US
RightatNYU said:
The vast majority, if not all, of those who deride America constantly, call our soldiers terrorists, side with the Iraq "insurgency," and yes, call the victims of 9/11 little Eichmans, are on the Left.

I'm not referring to those who disagree and debate such as yourself and most of the people on this board, but rather people such as those in youth anarchist movements, and the communist solidarity leagues who start brawls, and create dangerous disorder to "try to prove a point."

I can't name any liberal speakers who were recently attacked with pies, etc while they were on stage, or who were heckled until they couldn't continue speaking.



I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'd like to know some examples of lies from Slander (because I have it with me at school).
The vast majority, if not all, of those who deride America constantly, call our soldiers terrorists, side with the Iraq "insurgency," and yes, call the victims of 9/11 little Eichmans, are on the Left. I'm not referring to those who disagree and debate such as yourself and most of the people on this board, but rather people such as those in youth anarchist movements, and the communist solidarity leagues who start brawls, and create dangerous disorder to "try to prove a point."

True. And the vast majority of people shooting doctors at abortion clinics are right wing zealots. I wouldn’t classify either as being the norm in either movement. Lack of support for the war doesn’t not directly translate to hatred of our troops. I didn’t think the war was an intelligent move, but do support the troops. I’ve done several things, I’m not going to go into that here and now, to support our troops. Suffice it to say my support far exceeds slapping a $3 magnet to the bumper of my truck.

I can't name any liberal speakers who were recently attacked with pies, etc while they were on stage, or who were heckled until they couldn't continue speaking.
Really? I volunteered for the Kerry campaign and went to a rally where Michael Moore spoke. His was constantly interupted and about half way through his speech a guy rushed, then jumped on the stage and threw what looked like an fake “Oscar” at him.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'd like to know some examples of lies from Slander (because I have it with me at school)

It’s getting late. I’ll go look up my notes on “Slander” in the morning. Really the books full of them though. Just try to fact check anything where she quotes the “New York Times” Almost always if she says the “NYT” says “blank” go check her end note, (which she calls foot notes) and you’ll either find she’s taking it completely out of context or the “Times” said it (printed it) alright but they merely in a book review. So she’ll say the Times said, and I remember one had something to do with SCJ Clarence Thomas and the she said the Times was saying basically he was an Uncle Tom. But when you fact check it comes from a Playboy magazine interview or book review that the Times was merely talking about or reviewing. They were certainly never calling Thomas an Uncle Tom, but she sure made it sound that way. It in the first part of her book, go fact check it yourself. I used to really like her, a lot. I used to think she was kind of good looking. Now I know deep down she’s a very ugly person.
 

Naughty Nurse

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 5, 2005
Messages
1,972
Reaction score
12
Location
The UK
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
The French ghovernment has, I believe, banned all things religious from state institutions.


To not lower flags after the Pope's death would surely be consistent with this policy, rather than a display of hatred?
 

akyron

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 17, 2004
Messages
10,337
Reaction score
2,432
Location
Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Naughty Nurse said:
The French ghovernment has, I believe, banned all things religious from state institutions.


To not lower flags after the Pope's death would surely be consistent with this policy, rather than a display of hatred?


Interior Minister Dominique de Villepin defended the government's move, saying the lowering of the flag was one of the "Republican customs" when a pope died.

"They have been applied at the occasion of the deaths of Pius XII, John XXIII and John Paul I," the interior ministry said in a statement.


Lowering the flag was also consistent Historically
 

Naughty Nurse

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 5, 2005
Messages
1,972
Reaction score
12
Location
The UK
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
akyron said:
Interior Minister Dominique de Villepin defended the government's move, saying the lowering of the flag was one of the "Republican customs" when a pope died.

"They have been applied at the occasion of the deaths of Pius XII, John XXIII and John Paul I," the interior ministry said in a statement.


Lowering the flag was also consistent Historically
But French law has changed since those other Popes died. If we want historical consistency we could burn some witches. If we want legal consistency they shouldn't lower their flags.
 
Top Bottom