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Freedom of Religion? or freedom FROM Religion?

knsellout

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Where is the government supposed to stand in respect to religion?

The left often says that Religion should be banished from public offices.

The Right say that we as a population should be making religion a larger part of our community and lives.


I say that Freedom of religion means that NO particular religion should be given any more credit publicly by any government office.

I don't have a problem with prayer in school, as long as each religion can pray in their respectful way.

if you give the Xtians a chapel, give the buddhists a shrine as well.
 

jfuh

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knsellout said:
Where is the government supposed to stand in respect to religion?

The left often says that Religion should be banished from public offices.

The Right say that we as a population should be making religion a larger part of our community and lives.


I say that Freedom of religion means that NO particular religion should be given any more credit publicly by any government office.

I don't have a problem with prayer in school, as long as each religion can pray in their respectful way.

if you give the Xtians a chapel, give the buddhists a shrine as well.
The establishment clause of the constitution makes it quite clear. The Church has no place in government.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
 

alphamale

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jfuh said:
The establishment clause of the constitution makes it quite clear. The Church has no place in government.
Baloney. The establishment clause, as the phrase would have been understood by the founders in the 18th century, prohibited an official state church like the Church of England. The founders routinely made references to God or religion in public settings, and would have been appalled at the present day PC anti-religious cleansing campaign. The requirement of the establishment clause is essentially that government be neutral and disinterested about religion.
 

F41

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jfuh said:
The establishment clause of the constitution makes it quite clear. The Church has no place in government.
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
This gives me the right to pray in a Government building or speak on behalf of my religion.

The Government belongs to all Americans, Christians and other forms of religion have the right to involve themselves with our Government concerning the direction of our country as they so choose.
 

knsellout

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In current times with current issues, do you think it would be advisable for the President to have an Islamic Spiritual Advisor to help guide him in his making of foreign policies dealing with the Middle East?
 

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knsellout said:
In current times with current issues, do you think it would be advisable for the President to have an Islamic Spiritual Advisor to help guide him in his making of foreign policies dealing with the Middle East?
If the President of America elected was of Islam, I would say it is his right, But America did not elect an Islamic president and for him to have an Islamic advisor would no doubt cause an uproar among most Americans.
 

Apostle13

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jfuh said:
The establishment clause of the constitution makes it quite clear. The Church has no place in government.
Yes and so it does:roll:
1.The driving force of democracy is majority.
2.We were founded/constitutionally adhered, by a Christian Judeo society of men (forefathers).
3.This setting was their then present basis of a more specific majority. Hence, moral.
Although now marginally diluted / eroded, it is yet still, a reckoned force. This is the power and epitome of unity...
"The United States of America"
Social depravity will ultimately become our uttermost reason to demise.
For now there are yet many righteous in our midst.
In an instant there will be no more... Rapture!
You can add those last lines to your fundie raging signature cause kal-el.:2wave:
 
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Apostle13

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knsellout said:
In current times with current issues, do you think it would be advisable for the President to have an Islamic Spiritual Advisor to help guide him in his making of foreign policies dealing with the Middle East?
In a word...
NO!
 

jfuh

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alphamale said:
Baloney. The establishment clause, as the phrase would have been understood by the founders in the 18th century, prohibited an official state church like the Church of England. The founders routinely made references to God or religion in public settings, and would have been appalled at the present day PC anti-religious cleansing campaign. The requirement of the establishment clause is essentially that government be neutral and disinterested about religion.
Oh boy, alright here we go then with respect to the founding fathers:
"One of the embarrassing problems for the early nineteenth-century champions of the Christian faith was that not one of the first six Presidents of the United States was an orthodox Christian."--The Encyclopedia Brittanica, 1968, p. 420

"Say nothing of my religion. It is known to God and myself alone. Its evidence before the world is to be sought in my life: if it has been honest and dutiful to society the religion which has regulated it cannot be a bad one." - Thomas Jefferson

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." --John Adams

"Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another."--Benjamin Franklin

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are serviley crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blind faith." -- Thomas Jefferson

"...no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship ministry or shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise.. affect their civil capacities."--Thomas Jefferson, Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779

"...our civil rights have no dependance on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry"--Thomas Jefferson, Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779

"I am for freedom of religion and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another."--Thomas Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1799

"(When) the (Virginia) bill for establishing religious freedom, the principles of which had, to a certain degree, been enacted before, I had drawn in all the latitude of reason & right. It still met with opposition; but, with some mutilations in the preamble, it was finally passed; and a singular proposition proved that it's protections of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantel of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohametan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."--Thomas Jefferson, from his autobiography, 1821

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fables and mythology."--Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short

"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ." -- Thomas Jefferson

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize [hu]mankind." -- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."--James Madison in a letter to Edward Livingston in 1822

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, not by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church."--Thomas Paine, from The Age of Reason

“The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded upon the Christian religion” – John Adams – The Treaty of Tripoli

“Christianity neither is, nor ever was part of the Common Law”- Thomas Jefferson - his discourse on the evolution of the Constitution and the effect of British Common Law.
Want more? There's alot more where that came from.
It is clear that none of the founding fathers intended for anything of the sort that you have mentioned. Quite clear from all these that the founding fathers clearly intended a secular state.

Now the establishment clause clearly states in its first half
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.....
Meaning that no law with respect to any relgion will be made. Thus effectively prohibiting religion to interfere with law. The second half of the establishment clause states that the state will not make law prohibiting the free excersize of.
Thus the establishment clause clearly defines a secular state.
 

jfuh

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ThePhoenix said:
This gives me the right to pray in a Government building or speak on behalf of my religion.

The Government belongs to all Americans, Christians and other forms of religion have the right to involve themselves with our Government concerning the direction of our country as they so choose.
Yes you can do whatever you please religiously, however, you can not make law with respect to your religion.
 

alphamale

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Quote:
Originally Posted by alphamale
Baloney. The establishment clause, as the phrase would have been understood by the founders in the 18th century, prohibited an official state church like the Church of England. The founders routinely made references to God or religion in public settings, and would have been appalled at the present day PC anti-religious cleansing campaign. The requirement of the establishment clause is essentially that government be neutral and disinterested about religion.

Oh boy, alright here we go then with respect to the founding fathers:
Quote:
"One of the embarrassing problems for the early nineteenth-century champions of the Christian faith was that not one of the first six Presidents of the United States was an orthodox Christian."--The Encyclopedia Brittanica, 1968, p. 420
This has zero relevence.

"Say nothing of my religion. It is known to God and myself alone. Its evidence before the world is to be sought in my life: if it has been honest and dutiful to society the religion which has regulated it cannot be a bad one." - Thomas Jefferson
Oh boy! From Thomas Jefferson's inaugural speech:

...enlightened by a benign religion, professed, indeed, and practiced in various forms, yet all of them inculcating honesty, truth, temperance, gratitude, and the love of man; acknowledging and adoring an overruling Providence, which by all its dispensations proves that it delights in the happiness of man here and his greater happiness hereafter, ....

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." --John Adams
This has zero relevence.

"Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another."--Benjamin Franklin
This has zero relevence.

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are serviley crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blind faith." -- Thomas Jefferson
This has zero relevence, and see above.

"...no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship ministry or shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise.. affect their civil capacities."--Thomas Jefferson, Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779
This is EXACTLY supporting my definition of the meaning of the establishment clause!

"...our civil rights have no dependance on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry"--Thomas Jefferson, Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779
This has zero relevence.

"I am for freedom of religion and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another."--Thomas Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1799
This is EXACTLY supporting my definition of the meaning of the establishment clause!

"(When) the (Virginia) bill for establishing religious freedom, the principles of which had, to a certain degree, been enacted before, I had drawn in all the latitude of reason & right. It still met with opposition; but, with some mutilations in the preamble, it was finally passed; and a singular proposition proved that it's protections of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantel of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohametan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."--Thomas Jefferson, from his autobiography, 1821
This is EXACTLY supporting my definition of the meaning of the establishment clause!

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fables and mythology."--Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short
This has zero relevence.

"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ." -- Thomas Jefferson
This has zero relevence.

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize [hu]mankind." -- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason
This has zero relevence.

"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."--James Madison in a letter to Edward Livingston in 1822
This has zero relevence.

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, not by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church."--Thomas Paine, from The Age of Reason
This has zero relevence.

“The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded upon the Christian religion” – John Adams – The Treaty of Tripoli
This is EXACTLY supporting my definition of the meaning of the establishment clause!

“Christianity neither is, nor ever was part of the Common Law”- Thomas Jefferson - his discourse on the evolution of the Constitution and the effect of British Common Law.
This is EXACTLY supporting my definition of the meaning of the establishment clause!

Want more?
Uh, no. You seem to be free associating about religion. :confused:

There's alot more where that came from.
Uh, I'm sure, but I'd rather get back to the thread - if you can manage it.

It is clear that none of the founding fathers intended for anything of the sort that you have mentioned. Quite clear from all these that the founding fathers clearly intended a secular state.
You haven't overturned at all, with any of these quotes, my interpretation of the establishment clause, and in fact have supported it! :lol:
 
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jfuh

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alphamale said:
This has zero relevence.

Oh boy! From Thomas Jefferson's inaugural speech:

...enlightened by a benign religion, professed, indeed, and practiced in various forms, yet all of them inculcating honesty, truth, temperance, gratitude, and the love of man; acknowledging and adoring an overruling Providence, which by all its dispensations proves that it delights in the happiness of man here and his greater happiness hereafter, ....

This has zero relevence.

This has zero relevence.

This has zero relevence, and see above.

This is EXACTLY supporting my definition of the meaning of the establishment clause!

This has zero relevence.

This is EXACTLY supporting my definition of the meaning of the establishment clause!

This is EXACTLY supporting my definition of the meaning of the establishment clause!

This has zero relevence.

This has zero relevence.

This has zero relevence.

This has zero relevence.

This has zero relevence.

This is EXACTLY supporting my definition of the meaning of the establishment clause!

This is EXACTLY supporting my definition of the meaning of the establishment clause!

Uh, no. You seem to be free associating about religion. :confused:

Uh, I'm sure, but I'd rather get back to the thread - if you can manage it.

You haven't overturned at all, with any of these quotes, my interpretation of the establishment clause, and in fact have supported it! :lol:
Well that's when you reject everything else that has been stated as zero relevance. I guess religious fanatics are indeed blind to opposing arguments.

Let me give you one more and I wonder how you will respond to this:
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. - Thomas Jefferson - letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802
Note the italisized portion is the establishment clause of the 1st amendment.
 
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alphamale

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Well that's when you reject everything else that has been stated as zero relevance. I guess religious fanatics are indeed blind to opposing arguments.
Being an agnostic, I wouldn't know. Rational people are unimpressed with feeble attacks. What you puked up is a bunch of general and/or negative comments about religion by the Founders, that had nothing to do with what we were talking about, which is the meaning of the establishment clause, except you actually gave quotes that supported my position. Do you have short term memory loss?

Let me give you one more and I wonder how you will respond to this:

Quote:
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. - Thomas Jefferson - letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802
Ah yes, the famous Danbury letter. Number one, Jefferson, who became more anti-religious as he got older, was giving his opinion of the meaning of the clause - other constitutional convention members argued for years afterward about the exact meaning of what they had created.

Number two, Jefferson was using a metaphor - there is no proof or even indication that Jefferson's meaning in using that metaphor was the one of the current federal judiciary, in hijacking his particular phrase, that religion needed to be purged out of every government setting - there are many facts about the appearance of religion in government in Jefferson's time that show neither Jefferson's or the other Founders' sense of the clause was the anti-religious jihad of today. Otherwise, for just one of many examples, why would Jefferson refer to "Providence" in his very own inaugural speech?
 

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jfuh said:
Yes you can do whatever you please religiously, however, you can not make law with respect to your religion.
No doubt you have heard of Patrick Henry. He was a very strong political leader at the time of the American revolution. Because of him we all enjoy the liberties bestowed to every man and woman in America.

Patrick Henry was the man also known for the famous quote “Give me Liberty, or Give me Death. Allow me to offer to you a few definitions of Liberty.

Liberty
1. The condition of being free from restriction or control.
2. The right and power to act, believe, or express oneself in a manner of one's own choosing.
3. Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
4. A right or immunity to engage in certain actions without control or interference: the liberties protected by the Bill of Rights.

Freedom of Religion is a Right, therefore it is also a Liberty. If it were to be just a Liberty, then it would not necessarily be a Right.

I as a Christian, I claim the Right of my Liberty to speak to my Government and advise my Government on behalf of my Religion and my God. To say I cannot speak to as to make law is to deny me my fundamental right as an American. I reserve the Right of my Liberty to pray any place I choose, in any manner I chose. To deny me or anyone this Liberty is to deny our Right as Americans with a freedom to worship our God whenever we please.

You nor anyone of this world cannot, and will not take this from me. So I say to you, Give me the Liberty of Religion, or Give me Death.
 

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ThePhoenix said:
No doubt you have heard of Patrick Henry. He was a very strong political leader at the time of the American revolution. Because of him we all enjoy the liberties bestowed to every man and woman in America.

Patrick Henry was the man also known for the famous quote “Give me Liberty, or Give me Death. Allow me to offer to you a few definitions of Liberty.

Liberty
1. The condition of being free from restriction or control.
2. The right and power to act, believe, or express oneself in a manner of one's own choosing.
3. Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
4. A right or immunity to engage in certain actions without control or interference: the liberties protected by the Bill of Rights.

Freedom of Religion is a Right, therefore it is also a Liberty. If it were to be just a Liberty, then it would not necessarily be a Right.

I as a Christian, I claim the Right of my Liberty to speak to my Government and advise my Government on behalf of my Religion and my God. To say I cannot speak to as to make law is to deny me my fundamental right as an American. I reserve the Right of my Liberty to pray any place I choose, in any manner I chose. To deny me or anyone this Liberty is to deny our Right as Americans with a freedom to worship our God whenever we please.

You nor anyone of this world cannot, and will not take this from me. So I say to you, Give me the Liberty of Religion, or Give me Death.
You can speak to your legislature all you want about your religion and how you feel about it. I've said this already.
However for your legislature to make a law respecting you're belief based on your religion would then be in violation of the establishment clause of the constitution. Plain and simple.
 

jfuh

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alphamale said:
Being an agnostic, I wouldn't know. Rational people are unimpressed with feeble attacks. What you puked up is a bunch of general and/or negative comments about religion by the Founders, that had nothing to do with what we were talking about, which is the meaning of the establishment clause, except you actually gave quotes that supported my position. Do you have short term memory loss?
Agnostic? :2funny: Why deny your own faith? From the arguments you've given you are clearly anything but agnostic or atheist for that matter.
Even you call it the establishment clause. Do you know why it's also called the establishment clause? Let me give you a hint. The establishment of a wall for the seperation of church and state.


alphamale said:
Ah yes, the famous Danbury letter. Number one, Jefferson, who became more anti-religious as he got older, was giving his opinion of the meaning of the clause - other constitutional convention members argued for years afterward about the exact meaning of what they had created.
1) He was still the president when he wrote the letter
2) That letter coined the term the establishment clause which is what all later judicial ruling have adhered to. Including and exactly why, creationism/ID are not taught as science.

alphamale said:
Number two, Jefferson was using a metaphor - there is no proof or even indication that Jefferson's meaning in using that metaphor was the one of the current federal judiciary, in hijacking his particular phrase, that religion needed to be purged out of every government setting - there are many facts about the appearance of religion in government in Jefferson's time that show neither Jefferson's or the other Founders' sense of the clause was the anti-religious jihad of today. Otherwise, for just one of many examples, why would Jefferson refer to "Providence" in his very own inaugural speech?
:bs You've no idea what you're talking about.
 

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jfuh said:
You can speak to your legislature all you want about your religion and how you feel about it. I've said this already.
However for your legislature to make a law respecting you're belief based on your religion would then be in violation of the establishment clause of the constitution. Plain and simple.
Plain an simple, with all do respect, you are wrong.
 

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Separation of Church and State

The Founding Fathers were not only fearful of a unification of church and state, but also the "establishment" of a particular Christian or any other type of religion that would affect the secular job of governing! As I'm sure you know there were many Christian religions that disagreed strongly with each other in 1781! Many were puritanical and radical by today's standards. Colonists that came to the new world very often came so they could practice radically punitive and punishing religions that were becoming restricted by laws in Europe. That's what explains the Salem Witch Trials and being locked in stocks in the public squares as religious punishment. These were not inventions of Hollywood! That's what they called freedom of religion! Freedom to enforce a punitive religion. Radical Christian religions still exist today.

The Founding Fathers wanted "no" religion, Christian or not, to be favored or aided in it's "establishment" by the federal government! They believed the best way to truly guard freedom of religion was to keep government from affecting any religion. The sole purpose of separation of church and state is to protect freedom of religion! A clear, unambiguous line had to be drawn between the church and government or one religion would become predominant and threaten true freedom of religion.

Many are confused by the Founding Fathers references to God! They in general were God fearing men, and did not in any way intend the "establishment clause" to mean politicians could not base their decisions and policies on their Christian beliefs! There is a clear difference between having your Christian beliefs affect your views as a elected official and attempting to have Christian beliefs codified into law so they can be enforced on others as public policy! That's the real issue! That's what's going on now! There is a difference between a Christian teacher using his/her beliefs as a basis for treating children properly and demanding good behavior and values from students, and using the classroom to teach his/her religion to a captive audience of other people's children! That's the real issue! That's what "Prayer in the schools is about"! It's not about being able to pray, but injecting Christian prayer and Christian teachings into public schools! The litmus test on that one is try to have all the children say an Islamic prayer in school and see if it's accepted and just really about belief in God!

I'm aware of the weak argument that this was founded as a Christian nation so therefore Christianity belongs in our schools and courts. Based on that silly concept, China and Vietnam should have to right to teach Atheism in their schools and put, "There is no God!" on their coins with our support! I guess Christians should be accepting of that concept as they go all over the world trying to install Christianity in countries that "were not" founded as Christian countries. I guess that argument doesn't apply anywhere else but in the U.S.! It's like excusing the torture of prisoners against our international agreements, it doesn't seem to make as much sense when the prisoners become U.S. soldiers! You can't apply concepts only when they are convenient to your ideology! We’re good at that! :roll:
 
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jfuh

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Mr. D said:
Separation of Church and State

The Founding Fathers were not only fearful of a unification of church and state, but also the "establishment" of a particular Christian or any other type of religion that would affect the secular job of governing! As I'm sure you know there were many Christian religions that disagreed strongly with each other in 1781! Many were puritanical and radical by today's standards. Colonists that came to the new world very often came so they could practice radically punitive and punishing religions that were becoming restricted by laws in Europe. That's what explains the Salem Witch Trials and being locked in stocks in the public squares as religious punishment. These were not inventions of Hollywood! That's what they called freedom of religion! Freedom to enforce a punitive religion. Radical Christian religions still exist today.

The Founding Fathers wanted "no" religion, Christian or not, to be favored or aided in it's "establishment" by the federal government! They believed the best way to truly guard freedom of religion was to keep government from affecting any religion. The sole purpose of separation of church and state is to protect freedom of religion! A clear, unambiguous line had to be drawn between the church and government or one religion would become predominant and threaten true freedom of religion.

Many are confused by the Founding Fathers references to God! They in general were God fearing men, and did not in any way intend the "establishment clause" to mean politicians could not base their decisions and policies on their Christian beliefs! There is a clear difference between having your Christian beliefs affect your views as a elected official and attempting to have Christian beliefs codified into law so they can be enforced on others as public policy! That's the real issue! That's what's going on now! There is a difference between a Christian teacher using his/her beliefs as a basis for treating children properly and demanding good behavior and values from students, and using the classroom to teach his/her religion to a captive audience of other people's children! That's the real issue! That's what "Prayer in the schools is about"! It's not about being able to pray, but injecting Christian prayer and Christian teachings into public schools! The litmus test on that one is try to have all the children say an Islamic prayer in school and see if it's accepted and just really about belief in God!

I'm aware of the weak argument that this was founded as a Christian nation so therefore Christianity belongs in our schools and courts. Based on that silly concept, China and Vietnam should have to right to teach Atheism in their schools and put, "There is no God!" on their coins with our support! I guess Christians should be accepting of that concept as they go all over the world trying to install Christianity in countries that "were not" founded as Christian countries. I guess that argument doesn't apply anywhere else but in the U.S.! It's like excusing the torture of prisoners against our international agreements, it doesn't seem to make as much sense when the prisoners become U.S. soldiers! You can't apply concepts only when they are convenient to your ideology! We’re good at that! :roll:
:agree Well said.
 

Ausonius

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The union of church and state is an unholy marriage; and it produces bad offspring.
 

Apostle13

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Ausonius said:
The union of church and state is an unholy marriage; and it produces bad offspring.
How profound is this. :roll:
 

MSgt

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Ausonius said:
The union of church and state is an unholy marriage; and it produces bad offspring.

The Middle East. To make it worse, the governments use one single dogmatic religion to control the masses.

Very unhealthy and yes indeed, very "unholy." People who long for a marriage between religion and state should take a look at history and the regions upon the earth, which have exactly that or worse.
 
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Apostle13

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So long as the church remains a unified and viable force, legislation will be morally reflected/affected. As we do vote in accordance to our convictions. Not all, but the most agree conservatively. This is the power of unity I alluded to in post #7.
Political Science 101
 

afr0byte

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ThePhoenix said:
No doubt you have heard of Patrick Henry. He was a very strong political leader at the time of the American revolution. Because of him we all enjoy the liberties bestowed to every man and woman in America.

Patrick Henry was the man also known for the famous quote “Give me Liberty, or Give me Death. Allow me to offer to you a few definitions of Liberty.

Liberty
1. The condition of being free from restriction or control.
2. The right and power to act, believe, or express oneself in a manner of one's own choosing.
3. Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
4. A right or immunity to engage in certain actions without control or interference: the liberties protected by the Bill of Rights.

Freedom of Religion is a Right, therefore it is also a Liberty. If it were to be just a Liberty, then it would not necessarily be a Right.

I as a Christian, I claim the Right of my Liberty to speak to my Government and advise my Government on behalf of my Religion and my God. To say I cannot speak to as to make law is to deny me my fundamental right as an American. I reserve the Right of my Liberty to pray any place I choose, in any manner I chose. To deny me or anyone this Liberty is to deny our Right as Americans with a freedom to worship our God whenever we please.

You nor anyone of this world cannot, and will not take this from me. So I say to you, Give me the Liberty of Religion, or Give me Death.
Fine, as long as the Government doesn't support one religion, or any religion, over another.
 

Apostle13

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afr0byte said:
Fine, as long as the Government doesn't support one religion, or any religion, over another.
Freedom of religion is a plural concept that encompasses all belief systems.
... So no I don't believe this is the issue at hand.
GySgt said:
The Middle East. To make it worse, the governments use one single dogmatic religion to control the masses.
And even still they have their variant factions, but all seem to incorporate shari'a law to some large degrees. This is why I am concerned with these newly democratic formations. Afghanistan and Iraq in specific... Seems there is a generalized hostility toward tolerance of anything outside of Islam. With little/no constitutional provision/protection of other religions.
 
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