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Freedom except for Christians (1 Viewer)

letsgetiton

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It seems that America is trying to completely block out that which is our foundation - our faith. When you can't carry a Bible to school. When you can't put up a Christmas scene, when the Ten commandments are considered to be against the law we have come to far and the silent majority that is Christian has waited to long. Its time to get involved in standing up for what is right; the Bible, the church, the cross and our Christian faith.
 
letsgetiton said:
It seems that America is trying to completely block out that which is our foundation - our faith. When you can't carry a Bible to school. When you can't put up a Christmas scene, when the Ten commandments are considered to be against the law we have come to far and the silent majority that is Christian has waited to long. Its time to get involved in standing up for what is right; the Bible, the church, the cross and our Christian faith.
:funny :2bigcry: :2bigcry:
Ugh! The poor, poor Christians are so beaten down in American society...What will become of them? Before you know it they'll all be rounded up and sent away....

Sorry...but America has no restrictions on Christians or any other faith so long as it is not practiced in the Public Square using Public Funds...You can pray all you want anywhere anytime so long as you do not interfere with someone else's right to not participate....

So do me a big favor and stop your whining!
 
Ahaaahahaaahhahahahah! Oh the poor christians are getting screwed over boohoo. Yeah right! Moral majority my ***. Why don't you put yourself in the shoes of a muslim and experience the discrimination they face from time to time. I don't think it is wrong to be a christian or any religion for that matter, but when you ask for special treatment because you are the same religion as the founding fathers I just stop listening to you. You can have your faith but leave it to yourself.
 
letsgetiton said:
It seems that America is trying to completely block out that which is our foundation - our faith. When you can't carry a Bible to school. When you can't put up a Christmas scene, when the Ten commandments are considered to be against the law we have come to far and the silent majority that is Christian has waited to long. Its time to get involved in standing up for what is right; the Bible, the church, the cross and our Christian faith.

Faith is not our foundation... The Constitution is.

There are no laws or court rulings that state a student cannot have a bible in school. You can put up a Christmas scene or The Ten Commandments anywhere on your property, there is no law or court opinion to say otherwise.
 
Sir Alec said,
“Why don't you put yourself in the shoes of a muslim and experience the discrimination they face from time to time.”

You have got to be kidding. They face nothing in todays society. Jews are hated more than they are. Hell you can throw dung, you can urinate on the Blessed Virgin, but if you say one thing bad about their warrior chief Muhammed, your in deep shi_. Todays Christians around the world are being singeled out, labeled, fired and sent to jail for expressing biblical views.

REason.......pagan paranoia


“I don't think it is wrong to be a christian or any religion for that matter, but when you ask for special treatment because you are the same religion as the founding fathers I just stop listening to you.”

What special permission are we asking for Alec?


Hell the Supreme Court opens up in prayer every day. I wonder why? Do you want to wipe everything Christian out of our founding documents? Are you saying you want to erase history? Because if you want a long list of things around Washington that are Christian I’ll give it to ya.


“Faith is not our foundation... The Constitution is.”

Maybe not yours………but Christ is my foundation………..the Constitution is not.

It all depends on what you want to build your life foundation, the cornerstone of your life around.....

And letsgetiton......is right....
Christians better wake up and get involved with the issues in our culture, or we will lose our right to evangelize, we will lose our free speech.

Silencing Christians is real. The next logical step to keep them quiet is through the courts.......the best friend of the anti-christian movement.

In Omaha Nebraska a student was prohibited from reading his Bible silently diring free time or even to open his bible at school.
Gierke v. Blotzer 1989

(DAvid Barton, Original Intent:The Courts, the Constitution and Religion (Aledo,TX:WAllbuilder Press, 1997), 14.

It is unconstitutional for a classroom library to contain books that deal with Christianity or for a teacher to be seen with a personal copy of the bible at school.

Roberts v Madigan, 1990
http://www.puaf.umd.edu/puaf650-Fullinwider/handouts-Religion-Roberts.htm





 
Moderator's Warning:
Moved to a more appropriate forum...letsgetiton, I see that you are new here. In the future, please read the sticky at the top of the *Breaking News* forum for the rules and guidelines of starting a new thread there. :2wave:
 
:rofl I can't believe this stupid "waaaaaa we can't force our religion on the general public so we are obviously being oppressed."

Sorry faith isn't everyone's foundation. Please keep it to your private properties and homes. If you use public funds to support your superstion you will be opposed.
 
doughgirl said:
You have got to be kidding. They face nothing in todays society. Jews are hated more than they are. Hell you can throw dung, you can urinate on the Blessed Virgin, but if you say one thing bad about their warrior chief Muhammed, your in deep shi_. Todays Christians around the world are being singeled out, labeled, fired and sent to jail for expressing biblical views.

REason.......pagan paranoia

I'm not saying that we should destroy religion! I say draw all the cartoons of the prophet you want. Urinate on the blessed virgin and then light it on fire. Throw a star of david off of a skyscraper into a parking lot. I don't know anywhere in America where a christian has been sent to jail because of their religion. Can you name one case? Pagan paranioa is just your way of saying you don't agree with others.

doughgirl said:
What special permission are we asking for Alec?

To control the gov't and make everyone christian.

doughgirl said:
Hell the Supreme Court opens up in prayer every day. I wonder why? Do you want to wipe everything Christian out of our founding documents? Are you saying you want to erase history? Because if you want a long list of things around Washington that are Christian I’ll give it to ya.

I don't care what they do on their own time and in their own churchs and households, but when they start putting their beliefs into government issues it becomes controversial.

doughgirl said:
Maybe not yours………but Christ is my foundation………..the Constitution is not.

But you live in a nation that follows the ideas of the constitution so be quiet.

doughgirl said:
It all depends on what you want to build your life foundation, the cornerstone of your life around...........is right....

"Blah blah blah" I don't care what you think is right. Just because you have specific morals derived from your religion doesn't mean others do.

doughgirl said:
Christians better wake up and get involved with the issues in our culture, or we will lose our right to evangelize, we will lose our free speech.

Silencing Christians is real. The next logical step to keep them quiet is through the courts.......the best friend of the anti-christian movement.

You mean the same courts where you have to say "under god".
 
letsgetiton said:
It seems that America is trying to completely block out that which is our foundation - our faith. When you can't carry a Bible to school. When you can't put up a Christmas scene, when the Ten commandments are considered to be against the law we have come to far and the silent majority that is Christian has waited to long. Its time to get involved in standing up for what is right; the Bible, the church, the cross and our Christian faith.

I am a christian, and I am not aware of any illegal attempts to block me practicing my faith. How does not putting up copies of the ten commandments on public property block my faith? Last year I and my family went all over town on Christmas eve admiring the lovely nativity scenes. They were all over and many were well done. After that we went to the park and sang Christmas Songs. You are welcome to put up copies of the Ten Commandments on your property for all to see. I have a copy of the Beatitudes in frame on my front porch. I am very involved in being a christian. I don't need to have a state religion. Your concerns are not real. You are concerned about taking away my rights instead of loving Christ.

Isn't it strange, being a Christian is now a function of what church you go to in comparison to others. In John it says we need to love and accept Jesus as our savior to be saved, it does not say I have to believe your church and it's creed, put the ten commandment on court house steps. Take Care of your soul and I will take care of mine.

My grand daughter participated in the Choir at her middle school, and they sang Christmas music. No one objected.

I dont want religious demagogues dictating religion to me as they do in the Middle East. We have lots of churches in our area, of all denominations and they are well attended.

In our schools, they teach about religion, but they don't teach a particular religion. That is a function of the home and the Church, not the schools.

I believe firmly in our democracy and our constitution, and I believe in God and Jesus very firmly. I don't want to interfere with the rights of others who happen to believe differently than I do. This is America, not Iran. We don't need a state religion.
 
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dragonslayer said:
I am a christian, and I am not aware of any illegal attempts to block me practicing my faith. How does not putting up copies of the ten commandments on public property block my faith? Last year I and my family went all over town on Christmas eve admiring the lovely nativity scenes. They were all over and many were well done. After that we went to the park and sang Christmas Songs. You are welcome to put up copies of the Ten Commandments on your property for all to see. I have a copy of the Beatitudes in frame on my front porch. I am very involved in being a christian. I don't need to have a state religion. Your concerns are not real. You are concerned about taking away my rights instead of loving Christ.

Isn't it strange, being a Christian is now a function of what church you go to in comparison to others. In John it says we need to love and accept Jesus as our savior to be saved, it does not say I have to believe your church and it's creed, put the ten commandment on court house steps. Take Care of your soul and I will take care of mine.

My grand daughter participated in the Choir at her middle school, and they sang Christmas music. No one objected.

I dont want religious demagogues dictating religion to me as they do in the Middle East. We have lots of churches in our area, of all denominations and they are well attended.

In our schools, they teach about religion, but they don't teach a particular religion. That is a function of the home and the Church, not the schools.

I believe firmly in our democracy and our constitution, and I believe in God and Jesus very firmly. I don't want to interfere with the rights of others who happen to believe differently than I do. This is America, not Iran. We don't need a state religion.

Amen!!

If only more Christians were like minded....
 
doughgirl said:
You have got to be kidding. They (Muslims) face nothing in todays society. Jews are hated more than they are. Hell you can throw dung, you can urinate on the Blessed Virgin, but if you say one thing bad about their warrior chief Muhammed, your in deep shi_. Todays Christians around the world are being singeled out, labeled, fired and sent to jail for expressing biblical views.
I just love the hyperbole and the woe is us, pity me attitude you're expressing. In the USA Christians DOMINATE the religious playing field, no other group comes anywhere near yet you have the balls to whine and complain how persecuted you are? UGH!

Reading posts like this confirm to me the total disconnect some "Christians" have from the world around them. It seems to me that their view of America is so slanted towards complete domination of every part of the US fabric that any voice of dissent or difference is morphed into a "WOE IS ME - Christians are under attack" response!
doughgirl said:
Hell the Supreme Court opens up in prayer every day. I wonder why? Do you want to wipe everything Christian out of our founding documents? Are you saying you want to erase history? Because if you want a long list of things around Washington that are Christian I’ll give it to ya.
What an absurd and useless point! This is a prime example of the paranoid that your posts articulate. There's no movement to "wipe everything Christian out of our founding documents." Your statement is BS to the nth degree...and spare us all the right wing fundie website evidence that has no truth behind it!

The truth is as a non-Christian (which I am) there are many moments in my life when I've felt "left out" or ignored or discriminated against because I am not a follower of that religion. I've had to endure religious events in public that are exclusive to Christianity and segregate people like me and can have the effect of making non-Christians feel "less than." For example there were times in my life when shopping somewhere and I was wished "Merry Xmas" by a store clerk when I do not celebrate Christmas. I can only imagine how you would react if you were wished Happy Any Holdiay Not Christian on a regular basis!

But you know what? I have enough inner strength and inner amount of self-worth to ignore people who profess to be suffering while in the vast majority and to laugh it off as a drama queen post whose intention is to rabble rouse and to create something that doesn't exist.

Happily in 2006 America the vast, vast majority of Americans are way past the "Woe is Me" cries of certain Christians who truly want to make America a Christian nation rather than a secular Republic which it is today....I say tough $hit to anyone who wants to make America a Christian country...if that's what you want I suggest you move out of the USA and start a Christian nation somewhere else cuz it ain't happening here....and as Navy Pride would say "you can take that to the bank."
 
dragonslayer said:
I believe firmly in our democracy and our constitution, and I believe in God and Jesus very firmly. I don't want to interfere with the rights of others who happen to believe differently than I do. This is America, not Iran. We don't need a state religion.
God Bless You! What a great post! Your words express beautifully the truth of what religion should be and is in America.

Let's face facts. In any society anywhere in the world there are religious zealots who try to create problems where they do not exist in the attempt to control others. Posts like the one that started this thread and then backed up by Doughgirl are prime examples of the control, in this case by over zealous Christians want to have over the entire country.

It seems to me that nothing short of a Christian State Religion will satisfy them but thankfully that will never, ever happen in the USA, so help me God!
 
letsgetiton said:
It seems that America is trying to completely block out that which is our foundation - our faith. When you can't carry a Bible to school. When you can't put up a Christmas scene, when the Ten commandments are considered to be against the law we have come to far and the silent majority that is Christian has waited to long. Its time to get involved in standing up for what is right; the Bible, the church, the cross and our Christian faith.

I'm not aware of laws that say you can't carry a bible to school, last year we put up Christmas scenes without any hassle, and no one has told me I cannot abide by the 10 commandments if I want.

We must live in different Americas.
 
“To control the gov't and make everyone christian.”

That is not true, but like it or not our government was founded on Judeao Christianity. the evidence for Christianity is everywhere in Washington DC.

There isn’t a building there that Christianity isn’t on display. Why? You tell me.

Ours is the same congress that formed the American Bible Society that immediately after creating the Declaration of Independence, the Continental Congress voted in 1777 to purchase and import 20,000 copies of scripture for the people of this nation.

Why?

Patrick Henry said, "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here”

Why?

Thomas Jefferson wrote in his Bible: "I am a Christian, that is to say a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our Creator and, I hope, to the pure doctrine of Jesus also."

Why?

George Washington in his farewell speech on September 19, 1796:
"It is impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible. Of all the dispositions and habits that lead to political prosperity, our religion and morality are the indispensable supporters. Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that our national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."


Why?

How about our first Court Justice, John Jay?
He said that when we select our national leaders, if we are to preserve our Nation, we must select Christians. "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian Nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."


Why?

John Quincy Adams the sixth U.S. President who was
also the chairman of the American Bible Society, which he considered his highest and most important role. On July 4, 1821, President Adams said, "The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."


Why?

Calvin Coolidge, the 30th President of the United States wrote, "The foundations of our society and our government rest so much on the teachings of the Bible that it would be difficult to support them if faith in these teachings would cease to be practically universal in our country."

Why?

William Holmes McGuffey is the author of the McGuffey Reader, which was used for over 100 years in our public schools ( over 125 million copies sold) until it was stopped in 1963. President Lincoln called him the "Schoolmaster of the Nation."
McGuffey said…. "The Christian religion is the religion of our country. From it are derived our notions on character of God, on the great moral Governor of the universe. On its doctrines are founded the peculiarities of our free institutions. From no source has the author drawn more conspicuously than from the sacred Scriptures. From all these extracts from the Bible I make no apology."


Why?

James Madison, a primary author of the Constitution of the United States, said this: "We have staked the whole future of our new nation, not upon the power of government; far from it. We have staked the future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments."

Why?

Of the first 108 universities founded in America, 106 were Christian, including the first.
Harvard University, chartered in 1636. In the original Harvard Student Handbook rule it stated that students seeking entrance must know Latin and Greek so that they could study the scriptures:
"Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is, to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life, John 17:3; and therefore to lay Jesus Christ as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and learning. And seeing the Lord only giveth wisdom, let everyone seriously set himself by prayer in secret to seek it of him (Proverbs 2:3)."
For over 100 years, more than 50% of all Harvard graduates were Christian pastors.


Why?

When did the drafting of the Constitution take place SirAlec? I believe it says "In the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-seven."

Why?

If the framers had wanted to strip everything about religion away why include a reference to the Lord?

The evidence is overwhelming that we were at that time a Christian nation, and that most the founding fathers, had a belief in God, and Jesus Christ.


From the first Charter of Virginia that talked of “propogating of the Christian religion to such people as yet live in darkness” to the U.S Constitution that was approved by the founders…..”IN THE YEAR OF OUR LORD”… as the Supreme Court concluded in 1892 (just little over 100 years after the Constitution was written) “this is a Christian nation”….and as Benjamin Franklin himself said to those at the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia,

“I have lived…a long time and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth-that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice,(Matthew 10:29) is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, sir, in the sacred writings, that “except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. (Psalm 127:1) I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel.”


What do you want to do…. strip the United States of its history because you don’t like the fact that we started out as a Christian nation?

History speaks for itself. REferences to Christ were in every aspect of society from churches to public schools to the public square.

Today so it seems that there are threatened people who hate Christianity so much that they will go to every extreme to rid the world of anything Christian. They try to wipe the historical record away.

“I don't care what they do on their own time and in their own churchs and households, but when they start putting their beliefs into government issues it becomes controversial.”

Well its way to late for that………because the founders already did that in more ways than one.
 
Everyone always for some reason brings Jefferson up. He wasn’t even in this country when the draft was made for the Constitution. But for the record…

Did you know that Jefferson included a prayer in both of his inaugural addresses?
He signed bills appropriating money for chaplains in Congress and the armed services and signed the Articles of War, which not only provided for these chaplains but recommended that all officers and soldiers attend divine services.

(Act of April 10, 1806, C.20, 2 Stat. 359, 360. Quoted in Rice, The Supreme Court and Public Prayer, 63-64)


And did you know that Jefferson along with Ben Franklin proposed that the design for the nations seal should include the biblical image of Pharoahs army being destroyed as it passed through the Red Sea?

Why?

Jefferson was against ecclesiastical control of education but not against the teaching of religion in state supported institutions because he supported the College of William and Mary.

The list goes on and on…..

Have you ever been to Washington DC to witness all the references to Christianity that are there?

“But you live in a nation that follows the ideas of the constitution so be quiet.”

Youre telling me to be quiet? Oh really. How American is that? You have the right to view your opinions…….you do not afford me that right? Boy your statement says it all doesn’t it Alec?

Erase history…..change laws……SILENCE THE CHRISTIANS.
"Blah blah blah" I don't care what you think is right. Just because you have specific morals derived from your religion doesn't mean others do.”

Oh that is quite obvious.

Dragonslayer said, “After that we went to the park and sang Christmas Songs……… my grand daughter participated in the Choir at her middle school, and they sang Christmas music. No one objected.”

Nice. But where do you live, Mayberry USA? If you went to a public park and it was a public school it surprises me. Obviously the ACLU hasn’t been there yet, so I’d really remain quiet if I were you.

“Isn't it strange, being a Christian is now a function of what church you go to in comparison to others. In John it says we need to love and accept Jesus as our savior to be saved, it does not say I have to believe your church and it's creed, put the ten commandment on court house steps. Take Care of your soul and I will take care of mine.”

True. But do you know what the Great Commission is Dragon? What does that COMMAND all Christians to do?

I believe firmly in our democracy and our constitution, and I believe in God and Jesus very firmly. I don't want to interfere with the rights of others who happen to believe differently than I do. This is America, not Iran. We don't need a state religion.”

And I believe in allowing people to freely worship whatever they want as well. We have always allowed people to worship anything and everything. But to strip what evidence there has been for our nations Christian roots is wrong. And to have to tear down all evidences because it simply offends the pagan segment of society is wrong.

26XWorld Champs said, “For example there were times in my life when shopping somewhere and I was wished "Merry Xmas" by a store clerk when I do not celebrate Christmas. I can only imagine how you would react if you were wished Happy Any Holdiay Not Christian on a regular basis!”

Oh wow. Someone wished you Merry Christmas and you were offended? Now how petty is that? All you need to do is say thank you but I choose not to celebrate Christmas. No biggie is it?

Oh pleazze. My in laws are Jewish and I wish them Happy, whatever they are celebratin at the time. And they wish me Merry Christmas. They attend my families religious observances………and have no problem. We are in the United States and not Israel remember. We are in the United States not the Middle East. We are in the United States not Asia.

“Happily in 2006 America the vast, vast majority of Americans are way past the "Woe is Me" cries of certain Christians who truly want to make America a Christian nation rather than a secular Republic which it is today....I say tough $hit to anyone who wants to make America a Christian country...if that's what you want I suggest you move out of the USA and start a Christian nation somewhere else cuz it ain't happening here....and as Navy Pride would say "you can take that to the bank."

The majority have their heads in the sand to what is going on. and will wake up one day…to late. This country was founded on the Christian God. That is fact. We are no longer a Christian nation we are secular.

Its funny how those of you who do not hold this faith are so hostile to anything, anyone Christian. It really shows.

“God Bless You! What a great post! Your words express beautifully the truth of what religion should be and is in America.”

Yes a watered down version of Christian……theology. A feel good version of what God commands of His followers. Saying the politically correct thing, doing the politically correct thing. And for some saying and doing politically correct means everything. They compromise their faith for popularity.

Iriemon said, “I'm not aware of laws that say you can't carry a bible to school, last year we put up Christmas scenes without any hassle, and no one has told me I cannot abide by the 10 commandments if I want.

We must live in different Americas.”

You put Christmas scenes up at a public school? Well ya know the ACLU can’t be everywhere at all times. I’d keep it hush if I were you.
 
doughgirl said:
You put Christmas scenes up at a public school? Well ya know the ACLU can’t be everywhere at all times. I’d keep it hush if I were you.
BOOOHOOO...I won't waste this forum's time repsonding to the rants that you just posted except this last one.

Here's a simple question for you:

How would you feel if in that Public School you're referring to they had a celebration of Ramadan or Hanukah but not for Christmas? You make absurd little attacks against anyone who stands up to challenge YOUR Christianity.

Don't you notice that you're on an island in this forum? No one supports your extremist and biased point of view? Why is that?

If your neighbor were an American Muslim and they tried to celebrate Muslim holidays in your Public School by having displays and assemblies would you be OK with that?

How about Wickers? Do we allow them to display and celebrate their holidays? Hindus? Pagans?

I did note that you used the term "Pagans" a lot in your posts as if they are less than? My understandin is that a Pagan is someone who is not a Muslim, Jew or Christian but still practices religion. Are they entitled to less than you are? If your Public School has Christmas display but there happen to be Pagans in your school would you be offended by their holiday display (Afterall the Christmas tree was stolen from Paganism)?
 
doughgirl said:


That is not true, but like it or not our government was founded on Judeao Christianity. the evidence for Christianity is everywhere in Washington DC



If the US government was founded upon Judeao Christianity, why isn't the word "Christ" or "God" used in the constitution as a source or explanation as to the laws or the interpretation of the laws of the country?

Why are not the 10 commandments -- the fundamental law of Judeao Christianity, incorporated into the US constitution, the fundamental law of the United States?

Why does the 1st amendment prohibit the establishment of religion if the nation was founded upon Christianity?

You put Christmas scenes up at a public school? Well ya know the ACLU can’t be everywhere at all times. I’d keep it hush if I were you.

1. What statement in my post would lead you to conclude I put it up at a public school?

2. Why would I do that?
 
doughgirl said:


That is not true, but like it or not our government was founded on Judeao Christianity. the evidence for Christianity is everywhere in Washington DC.

There isn’t a building there that Christianity isn’t on display. Why? You tell me.

Ours is the same congress that formed the American Bible Society that immediately after creating the Declaration of Independence, the Continental Congress voted in 1777 to purchase and import 20,000 copies of scripture for the people of this nation.

Why?

Patrick Henry said, "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here”

Why?

Thomas Jefferson wrote in his Bible: "I am a Christian, that is to say a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our Creator and, I hope, to the pure doctrine of Jesus also."

Why?

George Washington in his farewell speech on September 19, 1796:
"It is impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible. Of all the dispositions and habits that lead to political prosperity, our religion and morality are the indispensable supporters. Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that our national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."


Why?

How about our first Court Justice, John Jay?
He said that when we select our national leaders, if we are to preserve our Nation, we must select Christians. "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian Nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."


Why?

John Quincy Adams the sixth U.S. President who was
also the chairman of the American Bible Society, which he considered his highest and most important role. On July 4, 1821, President Adams said, "The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."


Why?

Calvin Coolidge, the 30th President of the United States wrote, "The foundations of our society and our government rest so much on the teachings of the Bible that it would be difficult to support them if faith in these teachings would cease to be practically universal in our country."

Why?

William Holmes McGuffey is the author of the McGuffey Reader, which was used for over 100 years in our public schools ( over 125 million copies sold) until it was stopped in 1963. President Lincoln called him the "Schoolmaster of the Nation."
McGuffey said…. "The Christian religion is the religion of our country. From it are derived our notions on character of God, on the great moral Governor of the universe. On its doctrines are founded the peculiarities of our free institutions. From no source has the author drawn more conspicuously than from the sacred Scriptures. From all these extracts from the Bible I make no apology."


Why?

James Madison, a primary author of the Constitution of the United States, said this: "We have staked the whole future of our new nation, not upon the power of government; far from it. We have staked the future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments."

Why?

Of the first 108 universities founded in America, 106 were Christian, including the first.
Harvard University, chartered in 1636. In the original Harvard Student Handbook rule it stated that students seeking entrance must know Latin and Greek so that they could study the scriptures:
"Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is, to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life, John 17:3; and therefore to lay Jesus Christ as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and learning. And seeing the Lord only giveth wisdom, let everyone seriously set himself by prayer in secret to seek it of him (Proverbs 2:3)."
For over 100 years, more than 50% of all Harvard graduates were Christian pastors.


Why?

When did the drafting of the Constitution take place SirAlec? I believe it says "In the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-seven."

Why?

If the framers had wanted to strip everything about religion away why include a reference to the Lord?

The evidence is overwhelming that we were at that time a Christian nation, and that most the founding fathers, had a belief in God, and Jesus Christ.


From the first Charter of Virginia that talked of “propogating of the Christian religion to such people as yet live in darkness” to the U.S Constitution that was approved by the founders…..”IN THE YEAR OF OUR LORD”… as the Supreme Court concluded in 1892 (just little over 100 years after the Constitution was written) “this is a Christian nation”….and as Benjamin Franklin himself said to those at the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia,

“I have lived…a long time and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth-that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice,(Matthew 10:29) is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, sir, in the sacred writings, that “except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. (Psalm 127:1) I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel.”


What do you want to do…. strip the United States of its history because you don’t like the fact that we started out as a Christian nation?

History speaks for itself. REferences to Christ were in every aspect of society from churches to public schools to the public square.

Today so it seems that there are threatened people who hate Christianity so much that they will go to every extreme to rid the world of anything Christian. They try to wipe the historical record away.



Well its way to late for that………because the founders already did that in more ways than one.

As usual, not one link. So you cherry pick quotes, or quote inaccurately. Thomas Jefferson was no Christian. He wrote his own version of Jesus' life, and in it he removed all divinity and miracle-making from from the ability of your savior, and that is what Jefferson believed. He believed Jesus was only a man. Jefferson did believe in his doctrines, but said he was not the son of God.

James Madison spoke of a total separation of church from state, and also of a perfect separation of the two. He wrote about the danger of encroachment of religion into the government. He opposed chaplains in Congress. His 'Remonstrance...' spoke against any support of Christianity by the government.

Patrick Henry was like you. He wanted a Christian nation, but he did not get it. No Christ or God in the Constitution.

Lots of colleges were Christian based, but the one Jefferson and Madison formed in Virginia was deliberately not.

Very weak, claiming the date on the Constitution proves its a Christian document. Very lame. I date my checks 2006, so to you I write Christian-based checks. But I am not a Christian. Its the customary dating system, and doesn't mean anything.

And so on. You shouldn't get your historical facts from religious sites only. They are cherry picked and sometimes false.

No I didn't post any links either. I will when you do.
 
tryreading said:
As usual, not one link. So you cherry pick quotes, or quote inaccurately. Thomas Jefferson was no Christian. He wrote his own version of Jesus' life, and in it he removed all divinity and miracle-making from from the ability of your savior, and that is what Jefferson believed. He believed Jesus was only a man. Jefferson did believe in his doctrines, but said he was not the son of God.

James Madison spoke of a total separation of church from state, and also of a perfect separation of the two. He wrote about the danger of encroachment of religion into the government. He opposed chaplains in Congress. His 'Remonstrance...' spoke against any support of Christianity by the government.

Patrick Henry was like you. He wanted a Christian nation, but he did not get it.



How sweet, atheists gathered and declared Independence, and wrote the Constitution … pulling ideas out of thin air, Christians had nothing to do…

tryreading said:
No Christ or God in the Constitution. Very weak, claiming the date on the Constitution proves its a Christian document. Very lame. I date my checks 2006, so to you I write Christian-based checks. But I am not a Christian. Its the customary dating system, and doesn't mean anything.



Do you say and believe that Christ is your Lord, when you date your checks?....when you sign a legal document anonymously? How sweet, you are telling me - they all put signatures under the words having the only meaning that Christ was their Lord, -- but they were no Christians, they were just joking, they were not discussing each and every word, it just slipped through as a meaningful custom..…what else was a meaningful custom in the document? They were meaning separation of state and Church, but wrote “”free exersice of thereof, - they couldn’t find the right words, - they were no attorneys, but just simple people from cotton fields..
As usual, whatever is a fact, if it is against your statements it does not mean anything to you… Date and signature make a legal document… For all individuals who signed the legal document of the Constitution Christ was “Our Lord”. If anything you are saying was true, words “Our Lord’’ would not be allowed into the document.. But whatever you say and however you twist meanings, the words are there and anyone with an open mind can read and understand. BTW if you google the Constitution the most sources loose this part of the document - because of the “our Lord”--- no mentioning of G-d in the Constitution... you have to loose the original...

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Religion is the sign of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.
Karl Marx
 
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justone said:
Do you say and believe that Christ is your Lord, when you date your checks?....when you sign a legal document anonymously? How sweet, you are telling me - they all put signatures under the words having the only meaning that Christ was their Lord, -- but they were no Christians, they were just joking, they were not discussing each and every word, it just slipped through as a meaningful custom..…what else was a meaningful custom in the document? They were meaning separation of state and Church, but wrote “”free exersice of thereof, - they couldn’t find the right words, - they were no attorneys, but just simple people from cotton fields..
As usual, whatever is a fact, if it is against your statements it does not mean anything to you… Date and signature make a legal document… For all individuals who signed the legal document of the Constitution Christ was “Our Lord”. If anything you are saying was true, words “Our Lord’’ would not be allowed into the document.. But whatever you say and however you twist meanings, the words are there and anyone with an open mind can read and understand. BTW if you google the Constitution the most sources loose this part of the document - because of the “our Lord”--- no mentioning of G-d in the Constitution... you have to loose the original...

This makes absolutely no sense.

The global standard for dating things is the numbering of years per the Christian era. This would mean using B.C. and A.D.

A.D., or anno domini, is Latin for "In the Year of the Lord". The usage of such has absolutely nothing to do with believing in God OR Christ, however. It was simply adopted as a standard so that we could all be on the same page as far as dates are concerned. Most people don't write out "in the year of the Lord" or even "A.D." when writing the date, but most legal documentation does indeed include that wording - most, but not all. This was an especially common practice in the time of our founding fathers. Again, it is not there to imply anything religious, that was simply the standard of the times.
 
Stace said:
This makes absolutely no sense.

Again, it is not there to imply anything religious, that was simply the standard of the times.


You are just repeating what trytreating says. I understand, you don't have to repeat the same fantasy. The answer was:
As usual, whatever is a fact, if it is against your statements it does not mean anything to you… - this is what I said - of course it makes absolutly no sense to you....

Thank you for trying to educate me... The only valuable argument would be - if you tryed to do for a change some research and tell me that all documents were signed in that way as a rule... But you did not care about looking for the truth, did you? You just decided to give me a lesson ... Thank you, now I feel enlightened.
I spent some time and looked at some documents, - what if I was wrong?
You cannot even suppose you can be wrong, can you?
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/states/statutes/pennst01.htm

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/statutes/alien.htm
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/statutes/alien.htm

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/amerdoc/annapoli.htm
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Bill_of_Rights_Pg1of1_AC.jpg
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Religion is the sign of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.
Karl Marx
 
Iriemon said:
Why does the 1st amendment prohibit the establishment of religion if the nation was founded upon Christianity?
It is very simple… I am surprised that you do not want to give it a thought and come up with a reasonable explanation. You have an education and ability to reason. And it seems you have quite daring personality - going into a debate with doughgirl; I would hesitate to step into the ocean of quotes...

BTW 1st amendment says: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
you should say it on one breath – there are 2 equal sides of the coins… Do you have a stereoscopical view of the world, or it is just flat for you - one side only?
 
justone said:
How sweet, atheists gathered and declared Independence, and wrote the Constitution … pulling ideas out of thin air, Christians had nothing to do…


Some were atheists, some Christians, some neither. Jefferson and Franklin were deists, believing in a God (the Father) but not the Son or Holy Ghost.

Washington never mentioned Jesus in any of his extensive adult writings. Yes, he did go to church with his wife, but always left before communion.

The above three were key participants in the Constitutional Convention. Though Jefferson was in France, his influence and correspondence made him a vital participant in the process.

Madison said hundreds of negative things against Christianity, and religion in general. He wanted it totally separated from government.

My point is the signers weren't all Christians. But the more important point is that they wanted government neutrality regarding religion, and wrote that concept into Amendment I of the Constitution as you note above.

justone said:
Do you say and believe that Christ is your Lord, when you date your checks?....when you sign a legal document anonymously? How sweet, you are telling me - they all put signatures under the words having the only meaning that Christ was their Lord, -- but they were no Christians, they were just joking, they were not discussing each and every word, it just slipped through as a meaningful custom..…what else was a meaningful custom in the document? They were meaning separation of state and Church, but wrote “”free exersice of thereof, - they couldn’t find the right words, - they were no attorneys, but just simple people from cotton fields..
As usual, whatever is a fact, if it is against your statements it does not mean anything to you… Date and signature make a legal document… For all individuals who signed the legal document of the Constitution Christ was “Our Lord”. If anything you are saying was true, words “Our Lord’’ would not be allowed into the document.. But whatever you say and however you twist meanings, the words are there and anyone with an open mind can read and understand. BTW if you google the Constitution the most sources loose this part of the document - because of the “our Lord”--- no mentioning of G-d in the Constitution... you have to loose the original...

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Religion is the sign of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.
Karl Marx

I made the point that when I sign my checks, and date them 2006 (the year of our lord), that does not make me a Christian. Likewise, the people who signed the Constitution were not automatically made Christians by signing the document no matter how it was dated.
 
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doughgirl said:
Sir Alec said,

You have got to be kidding. They face nothing in todays society. Jews are hated more than they are. Hell you can throw dung, you can urinate on the Blessed Virgin, but if you say one thing bad about their warrior chief Muhammed, your in deep shi_. Todays Christians around the world are being singeled out, labeled, fired and sent to jail for expressing biblical views.

REason.......pagan paranoia




What special permission are we asking for Alec?


Hell the Supreme Court opens up in prayer every day. I wonder why? Do you want to wipe everything Christian out of our founding documents? Are you saying you want to erase history? Because if you want a long list of things around Washington that are Christian I’ll give it to ya.




Maybe not yours………but Christ is my foundation………..the Constitution is not.

It all depends on what you want to build your life foundation, the cornerstone of your life around.....

And letsgetiton......is right....
Christians better wake up and get involved with the issues in our culture, or we will lose our right to evangelize, we will lose our free speech.

Silencing Christians is real. The next logical step to keep them quiet is through the courts.......the best friend of the anti-christian movement.









No one should make fun of muhaamid because i dont make fun of christ i respect christianty and jeudiasm like the koran tells me to unlike u.
 
tryreading said:
Some were atheists, some Christians, some neither. Jefferson and Franklin were deists, believing in a God (the Father) but not the Son or Holy Ghost.

Washington never mentioned Jesus in any of his extensive adult writings. Yes, he did go to church with his wife, but always left before communion.

The above three were key participants in the Constitutional Convention. Though Jefferson was in France, his influence and correspondence made him a vital participant in the process.

My point is the signers weren't all Christians. But the more important point is that they wanted government neutrality regarding religion, and wrote that concept into Amendment I of the Constitution as you note above. .
I can reply neither by a long list of quotes as doughgirl (you can go *.org to read all of them), nor by giving you a lecture as Stacy (you can go to 2*.org to read). We would go back and forth, but works of the signers are available, and anyone is free to read out whatever one wants to read out. Internet, I've found, is full of such quote-opinion debate... One has to go to real sources. So, I've sent us to the Declaration (Creator) and the Constitution (our Lord), - anyone is free to make his/her own mind. Just remember you can twist and educate and explain, but you cannot erase...
Of course, I did some reading of signers' words and I came to a different conclusion, - you see, sometimes Christians can be confused with deists and even atheists, - depends on the matter of discussion... And also you may be using your imagination about Christians and Christianity - it is a common mistake...There are a lot of subjects I would be talking about with no references to G-d in vain... And if you want to know how much critics (negative) things I have said and I have thought - Christianity has always been living and developing, often out of conflicts and critics.. often hitting dead ends and still seeking the light. I find you and doughgirl are pretty much close in cherry picking. When it comes to reasoning you stick with writing checks:



tryreading said:
I made the point that when I sign my checks, and date them 2006 (the year of our lord), that does not make me a Christian. Likewise, the people who signed the Constitution were not automatically made Christians by signing the document no matter how it was dated.

You made your point about checks, I made my point about your point, now you're repeating your point again. I can repeat myself again, but I think it is fair to estublish that we have come to a strong disagreement. It is not bad, because we are not alone in this world. We just gave our words out, something will happen with them...

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Religion is the sign of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.
Karl Marx
 

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