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Freedom convoy

You believe continuous lies published as fact that lead to civil unrest, violence, and tearing the country apart, for financial gain, should be allowed to continue unquestioned? Instituting the idea of freedom of speech could not possibly have imagined a country this divided on what truth is.
I think you might be missing the issue. That allowing censoring as the solution will likely backfire to being used against the truth, not the lies. That, yes, such lies probably need to be allowed - from an individual, for example; that rather, the solution is more in the power of monied interests to get to be far louder with THEIR lies. Who cares if they lie if they have little effect? Those 'quiet liars' are likely part of 'free speech'.
 
I think you might be missing the issue. That allowing censoring as the solution will likely backfire to being used against the truth, not the lies. That, yes, such lies probably need to be allowed - from an individual, for example; that rather, the solution is more in the power of monied interests to get to be far louder with THEIR lies. Who cares if they lie if they have little effect? Those 'quiet liars' are likely part of 'free speech'.
I'm not talking about censoring things people may simply disagree with, but as I said these are things that are rupturing what use to bind us together as a nation and has proven to have led to violence against this very government.
 
I'm not talking about censoring things people may simply disagree with, but as I said these are things that are rupturing what use to bind us together as a nation and has proven to have led to violence against this very government.
Lying to people that the presidential election was stolen would seem to be such a lie? It can lead people to violence. What if trump's schemes had worked and he had stolen the election? Should people saying he did be outlawed?
 
Lying to people that the presidential election was stolen would seem to be such a lie? It can lead people to violence. What if trump's schemes had worked and he had stolen the election? Should people saying he did be outlawed?
I'm not talking about common individuals, again, it's about media stirring up unrest that has led to illegal activity based on proven lies for financial gain. Those with the biggest bullhorns violating public trust.
 
I have sympathy for the anti-science clowns in one way. They are ignorant, misled, deluded. But I don't like to see an American feeling they are under tyranny, that their idea of their liberty is threatened, even when it's delusional. So I see the issue as needing to inform them rather than to make them feel they don't matter as Americans. Unfortunately, that is not easy, and it is important for the rest of the country to recognize they are anti-science clowns.

The use of these people as tools for Republican politics for power to screw the American people is sad. Look at all the flags they use: they are upset. And that is too bad. Just as it is that 2/3 of Republicans have been convinced that the president has stolen the election. They're wrong, but it's very sad for an American to feel that's the case. These people are victims of liars. It's better if we can help them but we need to outvote them.
There is no cure for stupidity.
 
I'm not talking about common individuals, again, it's about media stirring up unrest that has led to illegal activity based on proven lies for financial gain. Those with the biggest bullhorns violating public trust.
But your solution didn't focus on big bullhorns - and is subject to being misused to silence individuals. Do you have a more specific suggestion?
 
Do you want to criticize the corrupt puppetmasters, or the American victims they manipulate, and by implication suggest Americans shouldn't have rights, as idiots? What's the right solution - attack the manipulation, or remove rights of Americans? Even if we have to defeat those Americans?
The solution is simple. Vote out the corrupt, lying politicians by outvoting the idiots that support them.
 
Start fining the media heavily for publishing provable harmful disinformation and see if that has any affect. Abuse of trust that could lead to civil unrest or worse should not be protected but prosecuted.
Who’s going to levy fines against “the media”? The government?

That would be a direct violation of the first amendment.

A nonstarter.
 
To be fair, given the obvious effort of the OP, I thought this was purely a meme thread.
Agree again. I have a broad definition of meme to include video and sarcastic ridicule.

Sometimes, reality is the meme.
 
But your solution didn't focus on big bullhorns - and is subject to being misused to silence individuals. Do you have a more specific suggestion?
I disagree with your first point. I specifically mentioned the media, which undeniably has a big bullhorn.
Though lying to the public in general is not a crime, shouldn't lying to the public, while receiving HUGE monetary gain, that leads directly to illegal acts and inherently being a violation of public trust, be held accountable in some way? This is the exact opposite of dissent backed by proven facts or grievance. It is more descent than dissent.
 
Who’s going to levy fines against “the media”? The government?

That would be a direct violation of the first amendment.

A nonstarter.
Where it leads to illegal activity? They should be allowed to continuously provably lie, violate public trust and receive financial gain when their actions lead directly to illegal acts? Their lies should go unchecked if they lead to insurrection against the government? It sounds like conspiracy to me.
 
Where it leads to illegal activity? They should be allowed to continuously provably lie, violate public trust and receive financial gain when their actions lead directly to illegal acts? Their lies should go unchecked if they lead to insurrection against the government? It sounds like conspiracy to me.
SCOTUS has ruled repeatedly on “protected speech”.

“Categories of speech that are given lesser or no protection by the First Amendment (and therefore may be restricted) include obscenity, fraud, child pornography, speech integral to illegal conduct, speech that incites imminent lawless action, speech that violates intellectual property law, true threats, and commercial speech such as advertising. Defamation that causes harm to reputation is a tort and also an exception to free speech.”

The price we pay to maintain freedom of speech necessarily includes much speech we find immoral/repugnant.
 
Are these people protesting Trudeau's mandate still? Or some other imaginary vaccine mandate? What exactly are these people doing?

The only answer I've seen from participants is "freedom." It's almost like a religious proclamation. I don't get it. Looks like they just don't like Democrats to me. Some kind of derangement syndrome or something.
I also notice, from photos, that the majority of the participants are white males in their 40s and 50s. What happened in that generation to make them so angry? I can only guess that most of those from the 1/6 insurrection and these convoys are men who are disappointed with where they have ended up in life and see nothing promising for the future. And, they are blaming the government, liberals, whatever, for the poor choices they made. Or for the changes that have happened economically which made those earlier choices turn out to be bad choices.
 
Did that work in 2016?
It didn’t because far too many Americans did not do their duty by voting. Loser #45 was expected to lose, so many Americans sat on their asses and did nothing to stop him.

2020 proved my simple logic true. If Americans get off of their asses and vote, there’s very little chance of another piece of shit like Loser #45 ever occupying the Oval Office.
 
I also notice, from photos, that the majority of the participants are white males in their 40s and 50s. What happened in that generation to make them so angry? I can only guess that most of those from the 1/6 insurrection and these convoys are men who are disappointed with where they have ended up in life and see nothing promising for the future. And, they are blaming the government, liberals, whatever, for the poor choices they made. Or for the changes that have happened economically which made those earlier choices turn out to be bad choices.

I really feel sorry for them. And such a tragedy that they are so dangerous. Ready to the torch for any demagogue wanting to illuminate his name, to paraphrase Ambrose Bierce.
 
I also notice, from photos, that the majority of the participants are white males in their 40s and 50s. What happened in that generation to make them so angry? I can only guess that most of those from the 1/6 insurrection and these convoys are men who are disappointed with where they have ended up in life and see nothing promising for the future. And, they are blaming the government, liberals, whatever, for the poor choices they made. Or for the changes that have happened economically which made those earlier choices turn out to be bad choices.
I really feel sorry for them. And such a tragedy that they are so dangerous. Ready to the torch for any demagogue wanting to illuminate his name, to paraphrase Ambrose Bierce.


They can be dangerous but being easily confused can be harmless as well. Probably more a danger to themselves than others.
 
You believe continuous lies published as fact that lead to civil unrest, violence, and tearing the country apart, for financial gain, should be allowed to continue unquestioned? Instituting the idea of freedom of speech could not possibly have imagined a country this divided on what truth is.
The problem is it's a catch 22. We can start with the best of intentions but it's almost certain to be abused at some point. Probably sooner than later.
 
You believe continuous lies published as fact that lead to civil unrest, violence, and tearing the country apart, for financial gain, should be allowed to continue unquestioned? Instituting the idea of freedom of speech could not possibly have imagined a country this divided on what truth is.
Your right to say the election was stolen when it was, is protected by someone's right to lie that it was when it wasn't. To repeat, the solution isn't to censor individuals and grant the government great censorship, but to address other parts of the problem that make the lies very loud.
 
I disagree with your first point. I specifically mentioned the media, which undeniably has a big bullhorn.

You might have mentioned the media, but what solution did you offer about the media?

Though lying to the public in general is not a crime, shouldn't lying to the public, while receiving HUGE monetary gain, that leads directly to illegal acts and inherently being a violation of public trust, be held accountable in some way? This is the exact opposite of dissent backed by proven facts or grievance. It is more descent than dissent.

In an ideal theory, 'rational citizens' are supposed to sort out the truth from lies. You and I know we can't count on that. But solutions need to be careful, as I keep saying, about unintended consequences. So not the government passing laws punishing speech they don't like so much, as more carefully crafted rules - why don't we start with dark money?
 
SCOTUS has ruled repeatedly on “protected speech”.

“Categories of speech that are given lesser or no protection by the First Amendment (and therefore may be restricted) include obscenity, fraud, child pornography, speech integral to illegal conduct, speech that incites imminent lawless action, speech that violates intellectual property law, true threats, and commercial speech such as advertising. Defamation that causes harm to reputation is a tort and also an exception to free speech.”

The price we pay to maintain freedom of speech necessarily includes much speech we find immoral/repugnant.
I still see some potential in that list, especially if the claims by the Jan. 6th Committee of possible crimes committed by the Trump Administration and forwarded to the DOJ.
 
I have sympathy for the anti-science clowns in one way. They are ignorant, misled, deluded. But I don't like to see an American feeling they are under tyranny, that their idea of their liberty is threatened, even when it's delusional. So I see the issue as needing to inform them rather than to make them feel they don't matter as Americans. Unfortunately, that is not easy, and it is important for the rest of the country to recognize they are anti-science clowns.

The use of these people as tools for Republican politics for power to screw the American people is sad. Look at all the flags they use: they are upset. And that is too bad. Just as it is that 2/3 of Republicans have been convinced that the president has stolen the election. They're wrong, but it's very sad for an American to feel that's the case. These people are victims of liars. It's better if we can help them but we need to outvote them.

The 2022 election will be interesting.
 
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