Free will question (1 Viewer)

[ddoyle00]

I never got a good respose to this question, mainly because it kept being answered by prepubescent youngsters vainly showing the benefits of an emotional arguement. So I will post it again. I have heard poeple claim their christian god is all-knowing and that they have free will at the same time.
Now imagine your life as a dvd (ignore the special features).

1.god.........................................the director
2.shot and fimed the movie............which is your life
3.sent the movie to BlockBuster......sent your spirit to Earth
4. for people to enjoy....................for you to live your life.

Now, with the movie analogy still in mind, think about the last movie you watched. What were you able to do? Fast-forward...yes. Rewind.....yes. Change the beginning..no. Change what happens in the middle.....no.
Alter the ending......no. No matter how you watched the movie (lived your life), you were not able to alter the ending. Since people say god is all-knowing, he knows what you are have done, what you are doing and most importantly, what you will do. Do you really think you can juke left or right fast enough to catch god off-balance? Like god is gonna say, "Damn, that guy got right past me, I didnt see that coming!". Come on. If you admit god is all knowing, then he knew you would be reading this right now and he knows exactly how you will respond. Free will? I think not.

 

[Peralin]

I never got a good respose to this question, mainly because it kept being answered by prepubescent youngsters vainly showing the benefits of an emotional arguement. So I will post it again. I have heard poeple claim their christian god is all-knowing and that they have free will at the same time.
Now imagine your life as a dvd (ignore the special features).

1.god.........................................the director
2.shot and fimed the movie............which is your life
3.sent the movie to BlockBuster......sent your spirit to Earth
4. for people to enjoy....................for you to live your life.

Now, with the movie analogy still in mind, think about the last movie you watched. What were you able to do? Fast-forward...yes. Rewind.....yes. Change the beginning..no. Change what happens in the middle.....no.
Alter the ending......no. No matter how you watched the movie (lived your life), you were not able to alter the ending. Since people say god is all-knowing, he knows what you are have done, what you are doing and most importantly, what you will do. Do you really think you can juke left or right fast enough to catch god off-balance? Like god is gonna say, "Damn, that guy got right past me, I didnt see that coming!". Come on. If you admit god is all knowing, then he knew you would be reading this right now and he knows exactly how you will respond. Free will? I think not.

Thank you, ddoyle00, I completely agree. In foct, I posted this same sort of question in the poll "Do you believe in fate" but no one ever answered.

The Bible contradicts itself also. Jesus knows that Peter will betray him before it happens. Jesus knows that he will be betrayed by Judas. Jesus knows that he will be crucified. How does he know these things?

In my belief, he doesn't. These things were made up to make the story more interesting. I fully believe in free will. I believe that God has free will just as all of us do. I believe that God makes mistakes just as we do. (Then again, I also believe that it is possible to be perfect and that sin is only an opinion, so you may want to discard my beliefs.)

Here's my question. If our lives are already written, why don't we go out and party and have fun? Who cares about sin? If we are destined to go to hell, we can't do anything about it! If we are destined to go to heaven, we can't do anything about it! We don't even exist! If predestination were truth, we would not be beings, but instead robots.

 

[ddoyle00]

fatalistic determinism, sucks huh?

 

[Gibberish]

The Bible contradicts itself also. Jesus knows that Peter will betray him before it happens. Jesus knows that he will be betrayed by Judas. Jesus knows that he will be crucified. How does he know these things?

In my belief, he doesn't. These things were made up to make the story more interesting. I fully believe in free will. I believe that God has free will just as all of us do. I believe that God makes mistakes just as we do. (Then again, I also believe that it is possible to be perfect and that sin is only an opinion, so you may want to discard my beliefs.

If you believe Jesus is who he says he is then you believe that he knows these things.

You obviously state you don't believe he is who he says he is and you believe God is flawed. So you do not believe God is a superior all knowing and powerful entity but a being with a superior intellect.

Here's my question. If our lives are already written, why don't we go out and party and have fun? Who cares about sin? If we are destined to go to hell, we can't do anything about it! If we are destined to go to heaven, we can't do anything about it! We don't even exist! If predestination were truth, we would not be beings, but instead robots.

Personally I don't believe in predestination. I believe the choices we make in life are the outcome of our life and our destination int he after life. In the Garden of Gethsemane Jesus had a choice to be captured or to flee. If he would of fled he would of been seen as human and not the divine spirit he is seen as by Christianity. In the end of it all Jesus had a choice, though in his situation he could see the outcome of his choice before he made it. That is a pirvelage we do not have.

 

[AK_Conservative]

I STRONGLY believe that we have absolute free will... I cant remember if its apart of christianity or a religious philosopher said this (my thoughts are on Descartes said it) but we in life have free will, but yet our lives are predetermined. It is OUR choice on how we obtain this destiny. Though, i may not agree to it, its interesting.

But, i believe anything u do, from blinking your eyes or the thoughts that run through your head changes your path. Do i have an argument as to why i believe this? No. It is one of thhose things that are just thought upon. Like religion, no proof to back it up, you just got to believe

 

[Neophyte]

I'm not very sure if this would really anwser your questions because I am not completely sure of this for myself. But, let say God gave us free will. He gives us a responsibility to hold within to justify the morally correct actions that are generally correct in God's eyes. The way you both are seeing your lives and how God planned it is, "I party hard. I sin. I go to hell." You're associating your life to be like a oneway street and the arguers of the Christian side are also. They would say "God gave you free will, and you will decide your fate." then the non-christian would altercate back stating, "Decide our fate? God already knows how we are going to live our lives. It's not free will."

Well this is a different approach that just struck my mind. What if God's plan for us isn't just one destination. What if God already planned various scenarios that he has sought out already for us. That every single decision, step, and move we take would lead us to the destination he has already planned for us. So this is almost like the theory of parallel universes. That every decision we make in our lives will split into another universe where the other continues it's life. So, you might know what I'm leading to; God has already planned millions of possiblities and outcomes of how we will either walk in his path to heaven or sin to the road of hell.

Furthermore, God gives us free will. His gift of free will to us human beings are the personal responbilities that we should take to either walk to God or walk to Hell. That is where our free will comes in place. He knows what we're going to do. Yes He knows but it's our own decision to make to get to the next point.

Lesson: Don't think of God's plan for us to be a one way street. Everything you do in your life has a result; which God knows the result. But it's the free will He has given us to lead to Point A or Point B. He sees infinite possibilites we can take. It's our decision to choose Him or not.


On the side note, I may not be making much sense because I just thought of this on the spot and haven't really been thinking about this subject much and I'm only 16 so yeah...

 

[ddoyle00]

Neophyte, that was a good post to begin with, but consider what you wrote.

"What if God already planned various scenarios that he has sought out already for us"

Still god has foreknowledge, especially if he created those various scenarios.
Even with that, are you saying, there are so many different possibilities, that
he doesnt know which one we will take? Or just that he doesnt know what
we will do, only the result?

"That every single decision, step, and move we take would lead us to the destination he has already planned for us."

So are you saying he gives us a few choices to make, but in the end the
chapter is already written? When you say "the destination he has already
planned for us", it sure sounds like he knows what we are going to do.

Now, when you talk about parallel universes, are you saying there are
multiple gods or is the christian god master of them too? Myself personally,
I would rather not think that I am a rat running around in a cosmic
mousetrap under the impression that I have a few "free" choices to make
before I die. I dont like the thought of being in a giant lab. experiment
wondering if I run the maze fast enough, will I get the sweet sweet cheese
at the end of it. If that gives you some sort of warm and fuzzy when the
chips are down, them march on mindless marrionette. But the only way you
can be truely free is throwing off the shackles of your oppressive beliefs
and start believing in yourself.

 

[Howard Beale]

God is not some chubby white-bearded old fart with a little weenie sitting on the clouds up in the sky scratching himself and thinking, “Hmm… think I’ll make me a universe today” – ala Michelangelo. No theologian worth his salt – Christian or other – accepts personifications of God. God is beyond our ability to conceive of in our limited human brains. The concept of “omniscience” is a human concept and God is not limited to the human sphere. It goes way beyond that.

 

[ddoyle00]

Damn Howie......I dont picture god with a little weenie. I picture god with a pornstar size schlong that would make Peter North blush. And your entire answer is a cop-out.

 

[Howard Beale]

Damn Howie......I dont picture god with a little weenie. I picture god with a pornstar size schlong that would make Peter North blush. And your entire answer is a cop-out.

If only Michelangelo had your perspicacity – what would the Sistine Chapel look like I wonder?

How is “my position” a cop-out?

 

[ddoyle00]

I bet the Chapel would look like an adult bookstore.
When you say nobody worth their salt accepts personifications of god, do you mean that even though its claimed we were made in his image, we dont personify any likeness of him? Or vice versa? Because thats what personification is......... an attribution of personal qualities. Personal qualities which might include forgiveness, love, compassion, and understanding. All these are human concepts, but since you said nobody worth their salt accepts personifications of god, then we cant say he is any of these.
If I take your comment a little furthur, it means god also isnt loving, caring, wonderful, all-powerful, all-knowing, or eternal. And there is one more thing he isnt........real. God was made in mans image.

 

[Neophyte]

Neophyte, that was a good post to begin with, but consider what you wrote.

"What if God already planned various scenarios that he has sought out already for us"

Still god has foreknowledge, especially if he created those various scenarios.
Even with that, are you saying, there are so many different possibilities, that
he doesnt know which one we will take? Or just that he doesnt know what
we will do, only the result?

"That every single decision, step, and move we take would lead us to the destination he has already planned for us."

So are you saying he gives us a few choices to make, but in the end the
chapter is already written? When you say "the destination he has already
planned for us", it sure sounds like he knows what we are going to do.

Now, when you talk about parallel universes, are you saying there are
multiple gods or is the christian god master of them too? Myself personally,
I would rather not think that I am a rat running around in a cosmic
mousetrap under the impression that I have a few "free" choices to make
before I die. I dont like the thought of being in a giant lab. experiment
wondering if I run the maze fast enough, will I get the sweet sweet cheese
at the end of it. If that gives you some sort of warm and fuzzy when the
chips are down, them march on mindless marrionette. But the only way you
can be truely free is throwing off the shackles of your oppressive beliefs
and start believing in yourself.

No What I'm saying is that God already created infinite paths for us to take. He already established them and Free Will is our walking tool. Free will is a responsibility he has given us to decide which path we shall take. In the Bible it says that God has already chosen a path for us to walk. Most prefarablly he wants us to walk in God's Path to heaven. But Free Will gives us the possibility to walk in which way we feel like it. God is ALL-knowing, so don't think of the destination of our path is just one thing. Think of it as God has created infinite of destinations and never in the Bible has it said "God knows which path we'll take", and it's our Free WIll to decide which path we take.

and God isn't always loving, he punishes also. thats why people go to hell.

 

[Howard Beale]

ddoyle00

I bet the Chapel would look like an adult bookstore.

I have no idea what this means.

When you say nobody worth their salt accepts personifications of god,

I did not say “nobody”, I said no theologian.

, do you mean that even though its claimed we were made in his image, we dont personify any likeness of him? Or vice versa?

I am saying that we limit God if we think that we can conceive of God with our limited human minds. God is beyond our ability to conceive of.

Because thats what personification is......... an attribution of personal qualities.

Personification is the attribution of human qualities to something that is not human. God is not human.

Personal qualities which might include forgiveness, love, compassion, and understanding. All these are human concepts, but since you said nobody worth their salt accepts personifications of god, then we cant say he is any of these.

Correct. God is not limited to the realm of our perception and understanding.

If I take your comment a little furthur, it means god also isnt loving, caring, wonderful, all-powerful, all-knowing, or eternal. And there is one more thing he isnt........real. God was made in mans image.

There is that famous saying, “God made man in his image and likeness and man returned the favor.” Other than that, I have no real idea of the you are saying.

 

[CaliNORML]

The question of free will also goes to allowing events happen to you as scripted as well.

The example of Jesus and Peter was used, there is a belief that states Jesus knew it would happen and still submitted to being cruxified. This is along the lines of giving into the freefall of life and making it a dive, a voluntary act. There is also a written text describing how Jesus went to his murderers, singing praises and having a glorious time, much as a bridegroom to the bride.

If he did indeed know the outcome and just allowed it to happen celebrating the fact that it was happening is that a free choice as well? The evidence of the temptations from Satan showed there was free will in Jesus's life. Maybe it was not only free choice, but a well thought out decision and an exercise of free will in its own right.

KMS

 

[ddoyle00]

"what would the Sistine Chapel look like I wonder?"-I was continuing that thought,Howard.

This is going to be off the subject a bit, but Cali I consider Jesus to be a physical manisfistation of god spirit. Since god is omnopotent and has foresight, doesnt it seem like he hedged his bets when he sent a part of himself (Jesus) to die freely (not really when he had foresight?).

 

[CaliNORML]

A bet indicates an unknown, things may not turn out in your favor,
hedging indicates a better chance yet not an exact result. I
consider all matter and anti-matter as part of God manifestations.
Free will can mean to fight or not to, to do what is presented or
reject it, that creative power was granted to humans in Eden. I
believe personaly that while omnipotent God does not manipulate,
instead dwells in the middle of good and evil, unjudgemental,
unbiased and only observatory to our free will. This does not mean
that each individual choices result in an unknown outcome, except
to those making them. God, I believe knows all the choices and outcomes,
possibly far more that we even think there could be.

 

[UtahBill]

Free will, or free agency, means you can choose your path in life. You can accept or reject Jesus as saviour, you can live a life of sin, or goodness.
Pre-destination makes no sense. If all is predestined, what is the point?
Jesus knew what was coming because he was the sacrifice part of the plan of salvation. He knew what the decsiples would do because he knew their natures, their weaknesses. His knowledge is superior to ours.
Also, there is a difference between sin and transgression. You can transgress a law without knowing the law, and the penalty is less than if you sin, which would be knowing the law and ignoring it.
Think about that when your teen comes home after his curfew because he had a flat tire. That is not so bad as if he comes home late on purpose, and tells you that you can take your curfew and go to hell. Different attitudes toward the rules are an issue here, and not knowing the rules are even less of an issue.
All those who never knew about Christianity will likely be judged based on what they did with respect to the knowledge that they had from the village elders concerning how to be good to each other. Anthropologists have found primitive societies who have what is basically the golden rule, and nearly all pre-Christian era, or non-Christian societies have had their own version of that rule. It is certainly not exclusive to the Bible.

 

[ddoyle00]

"If it is all predestined, what is the point?"

Exactly. Whats is the point? What an enormous monumental letdown that is going to be when people realize there is no secret of life, there is nothing obligating them to do good, there is not a god or a devil. What a disapointment that will be when we realize how much energy and time has been wasted on prayers and holy wars and inquisitions and crusades.
Man Man has evolved to a cognitive level where he thinks way to much of himself. We think to ourselves "Surely there is a reason for everything" "Surely we were put here for a reason". How conceited is that? To think that man is special or chosen. Has anyone in here had a one on one with a god? The only ones patting themselves on the back and telling us what a great and special animal we are is ourselves. Man is so greatly insignificant in the universe, he has no idea. Our solar system is just one of millions in a universe of billions. To think that we are special and the universe rotates around us is the very definition of hubris.

 

[dreamaccount2000]

I never got a good respose to this question, mainly because it kept being answered by prepubescent youngsters vainly showing the benefits of an emotional arguement. So I will post it again. I have heard poeple claim their christian god is all-knowing and that they have free will at the same time.
Now imagine your life as a dvd (ignore the special features).

1.god.........................................the director
2.shot and fimed the movie............which is your life
3.sent the movie to BlockBuster......sent your spirit to Earth
4. for people to enjoy....................for you to live your life.

Now, with the movie analogy still in mind, think about the last movie you watched. What were you able to do? Fast-forward...yes. Rewind.....yes. Change the beginning..no. Change what happens in the middle.....no.
Alter the ending......no. No matter how you watched the movie (lived your life), you were not able to alter the ending. Since people say god is all-knowing, he knows what you are have done, what you are doing and most importantly, what you will do. Do you really think you can juke left or right fast enough to catch god off-balance? Like god is gonna say, "Damn, that guy got right past me, I didnt see that coming!". Come on. If you admit god is all knowing, then he knew you would be reading this right now and he knows exactly how you will respond. Free will? I think not.

Does knowing something mean you caused it?
Lets look at the analogy again. Suppose you and I both watch a movie. You have seen the movie before. You already know what is going to happen. Does that mean you caused it to happen?
God is outside of time. He can see all that will ever happen in time. That does not mean he casues everything to happen.

 

[Iriemon]

Free will? I think not.

What difference does it make?

[Note the above is not the opinion of the management or owners of the entity knowns as "Iriemon"]

 

[nkgupta80]

What difference does it make?

[Note the above is not the opinion of the management or owners of the entity knowns as "Iriemon"]

Well in the Christian point of view, the end of the path is either Heaven or Hell right? So either I choose the paths to heaven or I choose the paths to hell. It kinda feels like a dictator tellin me I could take whatever path I want... but If I take the path he doesn't like, I get punished. Is that really free-will?

 

[dreamaccount2000]

Well in the Christian point of view, the end of the path is either Heaven or Hell right? So either I choose the paths to heaven or I choose the paths to hell. It kinda feels like a dictator tellin me I could take whatever path I want... but If I take the path he doesn't like, I get punished. Is that really free-will?

You can choose a life of crime here on earth also but you will pay the price if you get caught. It is still your choice. Your freewill

 

[Iriemon]

Well in the Christian point of view, the end of the path is either Heaven or Hell right? So either I choose the paths to heaven or I choose the paths to hell. It kinda feels like a dictator tellin me I could take whatever path I want... but If I take the path he doesn't like, I get punished. Is that really free-will?

Again, what difference does it make?

[Note the above is again, not the opinion of the management or owners of the entity knowns as "Iriemon", however, we are not saying or implying that it is not the opinion of management or owners of the entity knowns as "Iriemon", either.]

 

[ddoyle00]

"Does knowing something mean you caused it?
Lets look at the analogy again. Suppose you and I both watch a movie. You have seen the movie before. You already know what is going to happen. Does that mean you caused it to happen?
God is outside of time. He can see all that will ever happen in time. That does not mean he casues everything to happen."

Dream.......there has to be a cause for every effect. Things dont just happen. That is the big mystery of the universe. In your eyes, God happened and the effect was the universe. Since he is both the Alpha and the Omega (beginning and the end) he knows the exact fate of everything he has created because he is omniscient. You cant call god all-knowing because that would entail he knows the end of all things. Then, he knows your end as well. As far as me watching a movie Ive already seen, your point is.......? I may be able to predict what happens, but I STILL CANT DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. That is the whole point. We cant alter the beginning, the middle, or the end. NO free will.

 

[dreamaccount2000]

"Does knowing something mean you caused it?
Lets look at the analogy again. Suppose you and I both watch a movie. You have seen the movie before. You already know what is going to happen. Does that mean you caused it to happen?
God is outside of time. He can see all that will ever happen in time. That does not mean he casues everything to happen."

Dream.......there has to be a cause for every effect. Things dont just happen. That is the big mystery of the universe. In your eyes, God happened and the effect was the universe. Since he is both the Alpha and the Omega (beginning and the end) he knows the exact fate of everything he has created because he is omniscient. You cant call god all-knowing because that would entail he knows the end of all things. Then, he knows your end as well. As far as me watching a movie Ive already seen, your point is.......? I may be able to predict what happens, but I STILL CANT DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. That is the whole point. We cant alter the beginning, the middle, or the end. NO free will.

Somewhere along the line there had to be a first cause.
Maybe you should tell me how you define freewill.
The fact remains that knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen. I know the sun will rise in the morning but I dont cause it.
God know what I will do tommorow but that does not mean he caused it.