Free Will And God's Plan. (1 Viewer)

[Hatuey]

I have a question for religious folk(mainly christians/jews and muslims) God has a plan for everything right? Then why would he give us free will? If he already has our "fates" or "futures" or whatever it is your particular religion calls it planned out, whats the point in giving you free will? It's like saying you can play anyway you like only thing is you gotta play my way. Really confusing. I was hoping one of you could clear this up for me.

 

[southern_liberal]

I have a question for religious folk(mainly christians/jews and muslims) God has a plan for everything right? Then why would he give us free will? If he already has our "fates" or "futures" or whatever it is your particular religion calls it planned out, whats the point in giving you free will? It's like saying you can play anyway you like only thing is you gotta play my way. Really confusing. I was hoping one of you could clear this up for me.

Great post.

I didn't vote because the choice didn't express my opinion on God and free will because I don't know what to think about God and free will; I'm still trying to work out the concept.

As a Christian and as someone who values reason and logic, the whole free will, God has a plan for you, everything happen for a reason, beliefs of Christianity can be very perplexing. I look forward to what others have to say on this subject.

 

[AYFR]

Here is the difference
God gave us freewill to choose things on our own
He also has a plan for us but just like the plans parents have for their children we don't always follow God's plan

 

[southern_liberal]

Here is the difference
God gave us freewill to choose things on our own
He also has a plan for us but just like the plans parents have for their children we don't always follow God's plan

But he is God, if he knows what we are going to do, why free will?

 

[Thales]

I think that if there is some kind of supernatural force aiding in the functioning of the world, it doesn't have a plan for any of us.

Humans have free will - we make our own decisions.

"Nothing is written."

 

[faithful_servant]

First of all, why give us free will at all? Love is an act of the will, a choice. Everything else that people like to use to describe love comes from this choice. It is entirely possible to use psychological manipulation to cause someone to do everything that is normally used to describe love, but without a free choice, it isn't love. This is core of the issue of free will. We were created to love and be loved - the two most basic human drives there are (created in God's image, remember). This is why we were given free will, without it, we can't love.

As for the question of free will within God's plan is concerned, knowing the outcome of a decision does not mean that you planned or controlled that decision. If my wife drops an egg in the middle of my kitchen, I know that it will break, that doesn't mean that I control it's breakage, just that I know what will happen. Yes, God laid out a plan and He does know it's end result, but we still choose what we do. Knowing the outcome does not equate to controlling it.

 

[AYFR]

But he is God, if he knows what we are going to do, why free will?

Because he still wants us to "choose" to love him. He wants it to be our choice not have it forced or programed on/in us.
You can program a robot or a computer to "act" like it loves you but because it did not CHOOSE that course is it real love?

 

[tecoyah]

Because he still wants us to "choose" to love him. He wants it to be our choice not have it forced or programed on/in us.
You can program a robot or a computer to "act" like it loves you but because it did not CHOOSE that course is it real love?

If indeed, this God exists, its as confused as we are. By claiming we act independant of this entity, while stating it controls our actions the ultimate hypocracy becomes reality. The Logic needed to accept the Christian/Jewish God does not exist in my mind....but thats just me. I would need to Lie to Myself in order to take scriptural references as truth....and I simply cannot do that (though I did in my youth). Is there some guiding force behind the beauty of our reality....I really dont know. And , because of this...I have a very hard time telling anyone what I believe, it is my own.

 

[Hatuey]

As for the question of free will within God's plan is concerned, knowing the outcome of a decision does not mean that you planned or controlled that decision. If my wife drops an egg in the middle of my kitchen, I know that it will break, that doesn't mean that I control it's breakage, just that I know what will happen. Yes, God laid out a plan and He does know it's end result, but we still choose what we do. Knowing the outcome does not equate to controlling it.

If God already knows the outcomes of our lives whats the point in giving us free will? If every choice we make is going to fall in the same spot within God's plan then the choices we make matter little as they change nothing in our "fates". Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[AYFR]

If indeed, this God exists, its as confused as we are. By claiming we act independant of this entity, while stating it controls our actions the ultimate hypocracy becomes reality. The Logic needed to accept the Christian/Jewish God does not exist in my mind....but thats just me. I would need to Lie to Myself in order to take scriptural references as truth....and I simply cannot do that (though I did in my youth). Is there some guiding force behind the beauty of our reality....I really dont know. And , because of this...I have a very hard time telling anyone what I believe, it is my own.

Our actions are independent, and he does not control our actions. Knowing what we will do and forcing us to choose is two different things. You (as a scientist) may know the route the mouse in the maze will go but you did not force him to go that way. Also as a parent you may know what your child may do in a certain situstion but you did not force tah decision upon them.

 

[AYFR]

If God already knows the outcomes of our lives whats the point in giving us free will? If every choice we make is going to fall in the same spot within God's plan then the choices we make matter little as they change nothing in our "fates". Correct me if I'm wrong.

Because as I already stated, He wants us to choose. Coming to him by choice means that the love you have for him is real. Like i already said you can program a robot to "love" you but does that really mean anything then?
Also there is no fate. We are not predetermined for anything. Yes God had a plan and purpose for us but it is our Choice whether or not to follow it.

 

[faithful_servant]

If God already knows the outcomes of our lives whats the point in giving us free will? If every choice we make is going to fall in the same spot within God's plan then the choices we make matter little as they change nothing in our "fates". Correct me if I'm wrong.

It's not a matter of God controlling you, it's a matter of He knows the outcome already. Think of it like this, when you make a cake, do you control the chemical reactions that make it rise? You can put all of the ingredients together, pour the batter into the pan and put the pan into a properly heated oven, but the chemical reactions that take place are no tunder your control. You know what the results are going to be, because you know what the ingredients are and how they react with each other.

Your choices are still yours to make, just because God knows what your choices are going to be does not mean that you shouldn't make them. By the logic you are using, you should just sit down right where you are at and do nothing, choose nothing and die of dehydration and it's all God's fault. You still choose your course, it's just that God knows the choices you will make and His knowing does not mean you get to abrogate the responsibility for making them.

 

[southern_liberal]

Because he still wants us to "choose" to love him. He wants it to be our choice not have it forced or programed on/in us.
You can program a robot or a computer to "act" like it loves you but because it did not CHOOSE that course is it real love?

But that bottom line is, God knows the past and future. He is not constrained by time as we are. He knows right here and know what's going to happen to my soul once I die. So, this whole free will concept appears to be moot. If he knows all, is the beginning and the end, and is truly omniscient, then there is no point to free will.

 

[davideyoung]

Knowing what people will do and controlling people are not the same thing. God is not in control of my actions unless I yeild to Him. But He can help guide things to the right place.

God is not willing that any should perish, yet look how many do. This should tell you how much free will man has, and often God's will is not what happens, much to His heartbreak.

 

[Hatuey]

Knowing what people will do and controlling people are not the same thing. God is not in control of my actions unless I yeild to Him. But He can help guide things to the right place

.

Wouldn't God controling your actions because you'ved yielded to him in exchange for a free ticket to paradise be against the point of free will and God's status as the all forgiving god?

God is not willing that any should perish, yet look how many do. This should tell you how much free will man has, and often God's will is not what happens, much to His heartbreak.

If God's will isn't what happens then whats the point of him making a plan for all of us? If he as an all knowing, all powerful diety knows that his plan isn't going to happen then making it would be useless, wouldnt it?

 

[davideyoung]

If only one person accepts Him, to Him, it is worth it all.

 

[Hatuey]

If only one person accepts Him, to Him, it is worth it all.

Classical response. Touché.

 

[faithful_servant]

.

Wouldn't God controling your actions because you'ved yielded to him in exchange for a free ticket to paradise be against the point of free will and God's status as the all forgiving god?

God isn't "all-forgiving". He forgives those who choose to accept Him as their Lord and the forgiveness that He bought for them. God doesn't control my actions, but He lets me know what is pleasing to Him and what is not. Part of the evidence of my love of God is how much I do to please Him. If you buy your girl/boyfriend flowers on thier birthday because you that they like them, they aren't controlling you, you are showing them your love.

If God's will isn't what happens then whats the point of him making a plan for all of us? If he as an all knowing, all powerful diety knows that his plan isn't going to happen then making it would be useless, wouldnt it?

Part and parcel with free will comes the virtual guarantee that some will choose wrongly. God has done everything possible to make Himself known to the limits of imposing on our free will. The plan isn't useless, but it does have a price. God paid part of that price, but every person who chooses not serve God also pays part of that price as well. Free will allows and virtually requires that some will choose wrongly, it's part of the nature of free will. To think that you can have love without free will and free will w/o bad choices is just plain dumb. Where love is possible, so is the choice not to love. God's plan is all about love, not control, and love carries a price.

 

[Befuddled_Stoner]

Absurd!
It’s impossible for God to know everything, to have created everything, and to have given people Free Will as well. That’s like saying a computer programmer gave his program Free Will, but also designed exactly how that program would work in any conceivable situation, along with designing every single situation in which that program would ever be placed! If God created the universe and everything in it, and knew exactly what would happen throughout the entire history of his project when he created it, then you do not have free will because he already decided everything you would ever do the moment he created the universe!

 

[BodiSatva]

AYFR
He wants us to choose. Coming to him by choice means that the love you have for him is real.

Why would he create man with the logical ability to discern what makes sense and what doesn't, and then want us to choose to come to him when he has given us no proof that he exists.

Originally Posted by davideyoung
If only one person accepts Him, to Him, it is worth it all.

So, only one person accepts Him, to Him, it is worth it all? And he loves us so much that the rest of us can, what, Burn in Hell? Flounder in Purgatory? I am missing the plan regarding his intention of giving us free will if his standards are so low that he is OK with so many failing his test.

 

[AYFR]

Why would he create man with the logical ability to discern what makes sense and what doesn't, and then want us to choose to come to him when he has given us no proof that he exists.



So, only one person accepts Him, to Him, it is worth it all? And he loves us so much that the rest of us can, what, Burn in Hell? Flounder in Purgatory? I am missing the plan regarding his intention of giving us free will if his standards are so low that he is OK with so many failing his test.

It's called faith pardner, and WE make the decision on whether or not to go to hell or not.

 

[DeeJayH]

IF there is a god he is an
ABSENTEE SLUM LORD

 

[davideyoung]

Knowing what someone will do and making them do it are two very different things. God does know all, but He does not necessarily like what He knows.

 

[Light]

Eh, i chose none because god doesnt exist.

I think i have control over my own things, but i dont necessarily think there is no god. Im agnostic, though im learning more about buddhism. I think that we have the power to do as we please, and there is no hand moving us about, or pushing us in any direction. though....i do think that some things could happen for a reason, but that reason could just be luck or magic :2razz:

 

[BodiSatva]

AYFR
He wants us to choose. Coming to him by choice means that the love you have for him is real.

BodiSatva
Why would he create man with the logical ability to discern what makes sense and what doesn't, and then want us to choose to come to him when he has given us no proof that he exists.

AYFR
It's called faith pardner, and WE make the decision on whether or not to go to hell or not.

My Response is...

Huh? What in the heck does Logic have to do with faith? He creates us with an ability to LOGICALLY DEDUCE that he does not exist based on the fact that there is ZERO Evidence, so that those that TOTALLY DISRERGARD this God Goven Trait of LOGIC and simply have, "Faith" in what other people have said...they get to be wiht him hand in hand for eternity while the others of us wallow about wherever. It matters not, for we did not have "Faith".

Am I reading this right?

Originally Posted by davideyoung
If only one person accepts Him, to Him, it is worth it all.

BodiSatva
So, only one person accepts Him, to Him, it is worth it all? And he loves us so much that the rest of us can, what, Burn in Hell? Flounder in Purgatory? I am missing the plan regarding his intention of giving us free will if his standards are so low that he is OK with so many failing his test.

No Response thus far...