Free Will and God's Plan (1 Viewer)

[kal-el]

If God has a master plan for all of us, free will cannot exist. Let's say God has it in his notepad that you will go to the mall at 8 tomorrow, you must go, even though we THINK we are making the choice, in all actuality we are basically acting out a script, and God is the director. And if God has a grand plan in place, what is the purpose of prayer? To encourage prayer is basically saying there's room to maneuver in God's plan.

I would like to hear what Christians have to say about this.

 

[Monkey Mind]

If God has a master plan for all of us, free will cannot exist. Let's say God has it in his notepad that you will go to the mall at 8 tomorrow, you must go, even though we THINK we are making the choice, in all actuality we are basically acting out a script, and God is the director. And if God has a grand plan in place, what is the purpose of prayer? To encourage prayer is basically saying there's room to maneuver in God's plan.

I would like to hear what Christians have to say about this.

There's a difference between having a master plan and being the micromanager of every minute detail of the universe. God having a master plan and humans having free will are not mutually exclusive.

Why waste your time on such a pointless thread. (heheh, that was ironic) Even the most devout of Christians don't believe God sits there and controls every aspect of existence. At least, none whom I've met. No doubt a swarm will soon arise to prove me wrong. Either that, or the thread dies of neglect..

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go watch some more Numa Numa videos. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UCmo31FNpc) .. which I submit as absolute proof of a loving God, the innate goodness of humanity, and the Internet's destiny to unite all mankind.


---------------------
NP: O-Zone - Numa Numa

 

[kal-el]

There's a difference between having a master plan and being the micromanager of every minute detail of the universe. God having a master plan and humans having free will are not mutually exclusive.

Sure they are. I have a few questions for you. The outcome will vary somewhat depending on how you answer: Does God know our future? If yes then he knows exactly what I'm going to do; hence no free will. Since he knows what I'm going to do, there are no surprises, meaning I cannot deviate from his planned events. If no, he is not omniscient. So, what will it be, either way it's a no-win situation.

Why waste your time on such a pointless thread. (heheh, that was ironic)

Maybe pointless to you, but if you been around awhile, you'll indeed notice there's quite a few "pointless" threads here.

Even the most devout of Christians don't believe God sits there and controls every aspect of existence.

Well he should. Wouldn't you consider him perverted if he had the power to help children in need and instead did nothing. Here's an analogy. Let's say you have an olympic sized pool. Your kid dives in and has trouble and is drowning. Sitting down watching is olympic swimmer Greg Luganis. Now, wouldn't you be a tad bit upset with him for not doing anything, just letting your kid drown?

 

[doughgirl]

You know I just left a church because I found out the pastor was a Calvanist.

If you eliminate free will from the equation it changes everything. We wouldnt need missionaries, because if God preordained us.......then who cares about spreading the gospel? The Great Commission would be meaningless.

I believe God gives us free will, however I believe He knows beforehand which path we decide to take.
If God preordains.......then most of what Jesus said is a lie.

Jesus said salvation is open to anyone who asks. Anyone.......

Salvation is God’s work and not our doing, but we are the ones who come to HIm to ask for forgiveness and to be saved.

If we were handpicked by God........then whatever we do on earth wouldnt matter.......we would be going anyway.

 

[Apostle13]

If God has a master plan for all of us, free will cannot exist. Let's say God has it in his notepad that you will go to the mall at 8 tomorrow, you must go, even though we THINK we are making the choice, in all actuality we are basically acting out a script, and God is the director. And if God has a grand plan in place, what is the purpose of prayer? To encourage prayer is basically saying there's room to maneuver in God's plan.

I would like to hear what Christians have to say about this.

Your understanding is limited concerning such a matter... The answers rest upon a higher plane for they are reasoned from the heart... You cloud your own vision by your unbelief. While so doing you attempt to lead others to follow you in your scorn and contempt... Misery loves company.
...So you didn't get your miracle. Suck it up man... Move on... Come up here.
While there can be truth in a lie... There can never be a lie in the truth.
Our purpose is not to pray... Our prayer is to purpose.

 

[9TH]

I believe God gives us free will, however I believe He knows beforehand which path we decide to take.

If we were handpicked by God........then whatever we do on earth wouldnt matter.......we would be going anyway.

But if God knows beforehand which path you will take, then don't you merely have the illusion of free will? I assume you believe God's foreknowledge is perfect. If so, how can you "choose" anything which differs from that which he has already foreseen?

Your understanding is limited concerning such a matter... The answers rest upon a higher plane for they are reasoned from the heart... You cloud your own vision by your unbelief. While so doing you attempt to lead others to follow you in your scorn and contempt... Misery loves company.

Perhaps, instead of the mini-sermon you could address the central question of Kal's post. My heart pumps blood - my brain reasons. And my unbelief causes me no misery whatsoever.

...So you didn't get your miracle. Suck it up man... Move on... Come up here. While there can be truth in a lie... There can never be a lie in the truth. Our purpose is not to pray... Our prayer is to purpose.

Uhh,.................. OK?:roll:

 

[kal-el]

Hello doughgirl, thanks for replying.

You know I just left a church because I found out the pastor was a Calvanist.

What exactly is a Calvanist?

If you eliminate free will from the equation it changes everything.

Yes it does. So we don't have free will then? If you agree, that is reconciling your God.

We wouldnt need missionaries, because if God preordained us.......then who cares about spreading the gospel? The Great Commission would be meaningless.

I believe God gives us free will, however I believe He knows beforehand which path we decide to take.

If God does in fact give us free will, it's totally impossible that he knows our future. Even if we aren't physically forced to do something, we cannot do something else then what he knows we will do. If we do, it rips to shreds God's plan.

If God preordains.......then most of what Jesus said is a lie.

Jesus lied about many things, but I don't know about most.

Jesus said salvation is open to anyone who asks. Anyone.......

He also says he came to NOT bring peace but a sword. What's your point?

Salvation is God’s work and not our doing, but we are the ones who come to HIm to ask for forgiveness and to be saved.

Why do we need salvation in the first place? Answer that before I move on please.

If we were handpicked by God........then whatever we do on earth wouldnt matter.......we would be going anyway.

Huh? I don't quite get what you are tring to communicate here.

 

[kal-el]

Your understanding is limited concerning such a matter... The answers rest upon a higher plane for they are reasoned from the heart... You cloud your own vision by your unbelief. While so doing you attempt to lead others to follow you in your scorn and contempt... Misery loves company.
...So you didn't get your miracle. Suck it up man... Move on... Come up here.
While there can be truth in a lie... There can never be a lie in the truth.
Our purpose is not to pray... Our prayer is to purpose.

Hey Apostle. Could you please try giving some thoughful insight into the dillemas regarding God's plan and free will which I posed in my op, thanks.

 

[McTojo]

Hey Apostle. Could you please try giving some thoughful insight into the dillemas regarding God's plan and free will which I posed in my op, thanks.

Kal-l, let me try to help you understand a little better.

First, if you look in the book of Isiah the scriptures say that God's spirit shall not always strive with man...(?). This text is crucial in understanding what's called "Free Will" or "Permissive Will."

In modern thought we learn that "nothing happens by chance" which means nothing happens by accident and that everything is in some way meant to happen even if it's bad e.g. Life, Death, Love, Murder... These are things that in some way or another is destined to happen outside of our direct control. God has given us all the tools that we need to carry out our life i.e. Faith and Love. As we act through these virtues good things happen to us, even under the venear of evil sometimes e.g. You do a good work then something bad happens to you. Just remain patient. Stay like a Mountain.

Do not use three dimensional paradigms to describe God. God is not us. The scriptures say " His thoughts are not our thoughts and his ways are not our ways as far as the heavens are from the earth"(?). He can't think and perform like us because if he did he would be imperfect. God has already set the heavens and earth into motion so never worry whether he's controlling anything. Just trust in him and live your life with wisdom and discretion.

 

[Apostle13]

Kal-l, let me try to help you understand a little better.

First, if you look in the book of Isiah the scriptures say that God's spirit shall not always strive with man...(?). This text is crucial in understanding what's called "Free Will" or "Permissive Will."

In modern thought we learn that "nothing happens by chance" which means nothing happens by accident and that everything is in some way meant to happen even if it's bad e.g. Life, Death, Love, Murder... These are things that in some way or another is destined to happen outside of our direct control. God has given us all the tools that we need to carry out our life i.e. Faith and Love. As we act through these virtues good things happen to us, even under the venear of evil sometimes e.g. You do a good work then something bad happens to you. Just remain patient. Stay like a Mountain.

Do not use three dimensional paradigms to describe God. God is not us. The scriptures say " His thoughts are not our thoughts and his ways are not our ways as far as the heavens are from the earth"(?). He can't think and perform like us because if he did he would be imperfect. God has already set the heavens and earth into motion so never worry whether he's controlling anything. Just trust in him and live your life with wisdom and discretion.

Thanks McTojo... You are pretty much on the mark here.
I was just purposely pissin' on his cloud.

 

[doughgirl]

“But if God knows beforehand which path you will take, then don't you merely have the illusion of free will? I assume you believe God's foreknowledge is perfect. If so, how can you "choose" anything which differs from that which he has already foreseen?”

Not at all. Just because His foreknowledge is perfect, doens’t mean he doesn’t give us free will. He still is not making decisions for us. We are free to either accept or reject Him.

What you are really saying is that God makes every decision for everyone. In that case, every person Hitler gases, burned…….God had his hand on it, he was responsible for their death.
If there is no free will and there is a God, then God is responsible for all the good and bad that happens. We are his robots in that case, then everythings a big game.

I would throw this question at you. If God controls all things, how can our actions have real meaning?

Kal-el said, “What exactly is a Calvanist?”

Its sorta complicated and I am not sure I can just state in a brief paragraph what one is….


I had to do a lot of reading and research to understand it myself and I am still confused.
I will admit that I do not understand it fully.
But here goes.


Its all about "election". Calvanists believe that we do NOT have a choice in whether we accept Christ or not. That God handpicks those He wants to save.

This is why I left the church I had been attending...the thought makes me sick and goes agaisnt everything I believe scriptures say.

This doctrine of election denies all gospel invitations that appeal to the will of man and ask people to make a choice in whether to respond to Christs invitation or not. There is no voluntary choice on anyones part. This doctrine of election means that unbelievers never had a chance to believe cause God already picked those he wanted.


So throw out the Bible, no need for missionaries, no Great Commission……..basically everything Jesus said and did was a lie. Then He didn’t die for all men, just some.


So basically Calvanists believe that God chooses some to be saved and passes over others, deciding not to save them. I ask myself how can this be fair?

I believe kal-el that the Bible says that God wills to save EVERYONE.

Calvanists contradict scripture.

Read 1 Timothy 2:4
Here Paul writes of God our Savior, “who desires all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.” Peter also says, “The Lord is not slow about His promise as some count slowness, but is forebearing towards you, not wishing that any should perish but that they all should reach repentance.”

Do these verses seem to you that God handpicked certain people? I could you give hundreds more that are like these.


It gets more complicated than this too with different views and interpretations…I wouldn’t know where to start.


God says we are saved by grace………and I believe that. Anyone who asks may receive Christ. My salvation is totally due to grace alone, and for that I give God eternal praise.

“If God does in fact give us free will, it's totally impossible that he knows our future.”

I don’t think so.

I knew many times what my children would decide to do if I gave them a few choices. They still made their own choices and some of them they faces consequences and i allowed them to do so. I knew they would.

I can’t begin to understand the power of God. I don’t try. At some point you have to throw your hands up and just ask for His guidance and patience and for the Holy Spririt to intervene. I believe God can do anything. I believe he can know what we will do, but still give us the freedom to do it.

Are we free? Do we have free will? If God exercises control over all events, are we free? What do you think?

I guess it has to do with how you define the word free. I do believe that an absolute freedom totally free of Gods control is simply not possible in a world sustained and directed by God Himself. If that is what someone means by free will, its inconsistent with Scriptures to say we have free will.
On the other hand we are free in the greatest sense that any living creature of God could be free-we make willing choices, choices that have real effects. I know I have no retraints on my will from God, when I make decisions. I act according to my desires. In this sense I have exercises free will.
The lunatic that killed the little Amish girls exersised his free will. Andrea Yates who killed her small children in a bathtub exercised her free will. We have the power of carrying out and willing choices and these choices have real results in our universe. Our choices do matter. Our choices affect others.

“Jesus lied about many things, but I don't know about most.”

What did Jesus lie about could you site some lies?

“He also says he came to NOT bring peace but a sword. What's your point?”

Skeptics use this verse Matthew 10:34 a lot to point out that they think Jesus was violent. Few read the entire chapter however to understand it in context. Let me explain.
In this chapter Jesus starts to prepare His disciples for persecution, especially when they start ministering to others. Christ meant in this verse that, conflicts and disagreements will arise between those who choose to follow Him and those who don’t. He emphasized that Christian commitment may separate friends and loved ones. In saying this Jesus was not encouraging disobedience to parents or conflict at home. He was showing that his presence demands a decision, because some will follow Christ and some wont, and because of this, conflicts willl happen.

When you follow Christ, you are set apart by different values and morals, goals, and purposes than everyone else. Christ said don’t neglect family but remember first your commitment to God. This commandment is more important than family. God is first priority. Christians must take up their cross and follow Christ. And many who do face opposition, even death and suffering might happen.
This commitment might separate families………that is what Christ meant.

“Why do we need salvation in the first place? Answer that before I move on please.”

Because we all have sinned and fallen short and we deserve eternal punishment from God. Christ died and earned salvation for each one of us. If we ask forgiveness and repent and ask Him into our lives we are born again and receive everlasting life. If we do not accept Him (Christ), then WE MAKE the decision to live without God for all eternity after we die.
Did that answer your question?

I think I need a Tylenol……..:rofl thinking to deep here, but love it.

 

[Jerry]

If God has a master plan for all of us, free will cannot exist. Let's say God has it in his notepad that you will go to the mall at 8 tomorrow, you must go, even though we THINK we are making the choice, in all actuality we are basically acting out a script, and God is the director. And if God has a grand plan in place, what is the purpose of prayer? To encourage prayer is basically saying there's room to maneuver in God's plan.

I would like to hear what Christians have to say about this.

I have nothing to say on this as your entire premise for the discussion is counter productive.

 

[McTojo]

What you are really saying is that God makes every decision for everyone. In that case, every person Hitler gases, burned…….God had his hand on it, he was responsible for their death.
If there is no free will and there is a God, then God is responsible for all the good and bad that happens. We are his robots in that case, then everythings a big game.

Good and Evil coexist together Doughgirl. Even the creation of Hitler was part of God's will. I know that's a hard pill to for you to swallow, but he was. Every modern scholar would agree that he was a man who had divine providence i.e. he survive several assasination attempts miraculously. No one could kill Hitler, and yet he changed the World through brutality. God himself destroyed the earth, only saving Noah and his family. He also destroyed Soddam and Gomarha (sp?). I can go on and on. My point is is that "free will and God's will" are seemingly worthless points to argue because God has already set things in motion already. When people achieve enlightenment and do the right thing then God's will follows.

 

[ignorance is bliss]

If God does in fact give us free will, it's totally impossible that he knows our future. Even if we aren't physically forced to do something, we cannot do something else then what he knows we will do. If we do, it rips to shreds God's plan.

I'll try to best describe it as the way that always made the most sense to me. God is omni-time, meaning He doesn't know time. I suppose the best analogy to use is something like reading a book once, and on the second time you read it you know what is going to happen, yet you don't control it. To me, this always made the most sense. I don't like a Calvanist's view on it, because to me this seems like there's nothing I can do to get saved if the future is already planned out. I don't like a complete free-will view, because that takes away much of the deity of God.

I know that lots of christians don't hold to that standard, just always the one that made the most sense to me.

 

[9TH]

Not at all. Just because His foreknowledge is perfect, doens’t mean he doesn’t give us free will. He still is not making decisions for us. We are free to either accept or reject Him.

But if he knows beforehand that you will reject him, can you choose to accept him? Of course not - That would mean he was wrong. So, where is the choice and free will?

What you are really saying is that God makes every decision for everyone. In that case, every person Hitler gases, burned…….God had his hand on it, he was responsible for their death.
If there is no free will and there is a God, then God is responsible for all the good and bad that happens. We are his robots in that case, then everythings a big game.

Actually, since I'm an atheist, I'm a big believer in free will. To me, it is the idea of a god with perfect foreknowledge that brings about what you've written here.

Its all about "election". Calvanists believe that we do NOT have a choice in whether we accept Christ or not. That God handpicks those He wants to save.
This doctrine of election denies all gospel invitations that appeal to the will of man and ask people to make a choice in whether to respond to Christs invitation or not. There is no voluntary choice on anyones part. This doctrine of election means that unbelievers never had a chance to believe cause God already picked those he wanted.

My father and my uncle have this same problem. One thinks that you believe and ask for God's grace and it is given to you freely. The other thinks that grace is bestowed upon you which causes you to believe. I wonder which one will make it to the next level?

Do these verses seem to you that God handpicked certain people?

No, but these do:

Rom.8:29-30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom.9:11-22
For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. .... For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? ... Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.

2 Th.2:11-12
God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.

Jude 4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation.

I knew many times what my children would decide to do if I gave them a few choices. They still made their own choices and some of them they faces consequences and i allowed them to do so. I knew they would.

Of course, you're not comparing your knowledge of your children to god's knowledge of you. Your children, however well you may know them, can and will surprise you with their choices. This is because your foreknowledge isn't perfect. If god has perfect foreknowledge, you cannot surprise him. This is because you cannot "choose" anything other than what he has foreseen.

 

[doughgirl]

“Good and Evil coexist together Doughgirl. Even the creation of Hitler was part of God's will. I know that's a hard pill to for you to swallow, but he was. Every modern scholar would agree that he was a man who had divine providence i.e. he survive several assasination attempts miraculously. No one could kill Hitler, and yet he changed the World through brutality.”


Hitler had free will. It was not Gods decision that he murdered millions. That not so hard to understand.

So you think God planned what Hitler carried out? Did
God also kill the five little Amish girls last week?

9th said, “ But if he knows beforehand that you will reject him, can you choose to accept him? Of course not - That would mean he was wrong. So, where is the choice and free will?’

What? God is never wrong. You don’t make sense. God can give us free will……..and still know what we will choose. You can’t change your mind after you die.

“Actually, since I'm an atheist, I'm a big believer in free will. To me, it is the idea of a god with perfect foreknowledge that brings about what you've written here.’

How can you even entertain the idea of God and still be an Athiest? And if you are an Athiest you certainly would believe in free will, youd have too since the faith you have is in yourself.

“ My father and my uncle have this same problem. One thinks that you believe and ask for God's grace and it is given to you freely. The other thinks that grace is bestowed upon you which causes you to believe. I wonder which one will make it to the next level?”

Well the one who makes it to the next level is the one who accepts Christ. So I think it would be safe to say that both your father and uncle will make it even though they have a different idea about "election".
The important thing is to accept Christ. I believe that if you ask you shall receive.

“Rom.8:29-30’

I will admit that some believe these verses mean that before the beginning of the world God chose certain people to receive His gift of salvation. If you also read Ephesians 1:11 it also says a similar thing. And others believe that God foreknew those that would respond to Him and to those He set His mark on.

What is clear about this statement is however the fact that Gods purpose for people was not just an afterthought. We are to serve and honor God.
I think if you did a deductive Bible study on this and you listed all the verses for and against predestination…….the overwhelming evidence would be for free will to accept or reject. Especially if you weigh the things Christ Himself said and did.

“If god has perfect foreknowledge, you cannot surprise him.”

That doesn’t mean he makes decisions for us. He could if he wanted to…….but I think it is the one thing that He leaves for us to decide.

 

[-Demosthenes-]

This is a thought experiment, not a statement of fact.

Suppose I know, perfectly, that you will go to school tommorow (which may be sciencetifically impossible, but assume for the sake of arguement). Suppose also, that you decide to go to school of you own free choice.

How does my knowlege of you going to school hinder your choice at all?

 

[doughgirl]

"Suppose I know, perfectly, that you will go to school tommorow (which may be sciencetifically impossible, but assume for the sake of arguement). Suppose also, that you decide to go to school of you own free choice.

How does my knowlege of you going to school hinder your choice at all?"

But you aren't God. I am not accountable to you. What you think is irrelevant.

 

[kal-el]

Wow, quite a bit of replies. Where to start? I think I'll start on doughgirl's response:

Not at all. Just because His foreknowledge is perfect, doens’t mean he doesn’t give us free will. He still is not making decisions for us. We are free to either accept or reject Him.

If God knows all before we were even conceived, then he created us KNOWING that some would reject him. If we are using our own free will to reject him, I believe you said prior that his will is to love all of us, wouldn't he want worship from each of us? I guess our free will trumps his. Further, if we commit evil acts on account of "free will", a "loving" God would not give man free will if it is the cause of evil.

What you are really saying is that God makes every decision for everyone. In that case, every person Hitler gases, burned…….God had his hand on it, he was responsible for their death.

Yep, and rightfully so. If God created all, then he is either directly or indirectly responsible for everything that happens. he created all the conditions necessary for the event to take place. At the time he created Hitler, he had full knowledge that Hitler would kill so many. God does not get a "get out of jail" free card here. Just because you insist we have free will not not absolve him of any crimes. He is an accomplice. If he had knowledge, and could stop it, but didn't, he is just as guilty as Hitler.

If there is no free will and there is a God, then God is responsible for all the good and bad that happens. We are his robots in that case, then everythings a big game.

Are you saying he's not? Have a little looksie here.

I would throw this question at you. If God controls all things, how can our actions have real meaning?

In the grand scheme of things, they don't. If there is a God who knows all that will happen and every concequence of our actions, no they can't have meaning. If God had a lousy day, at the time he created you and decides at the time of your conception, that you're going to hell, there's absolutely nothing you can do to change God's mind. Unless of course, his mind is swayable? Please open up that can of worms.

So throw out the Bible, no need for missionaries, no Great Commission……..basically everything Jesus said and did was a lie. Then He didn’t die for all men, just some.

Why? Doesn't the bible teach that God does indeed in a sense "handpick" people destined for hell or heaven? So, why leave church? See, that's why I believe Christinity to have gaping holes in it's system. There are so many sects that differ on little things. If they can differ on little things, who's to say the big things are true? Who's to say any of it is true? Why would a perfectly good, moral God place the truth in 1 sect when there are hundreds of religions before and after Christ, hundreds of different sects inside each one? They can't all be right? Maybe none of them are? Before you impose the Christian God on any of us, you must first go by disproving all the other Gods. Have fun, there are over 2,000 of them.

I believe kal-el that the Bible says that God wills to save EVERYONE.

Close, but I believe the bible says that God will destroy everyone, good or bad. I would throw some verse out, but right now I'm on another computer, and it would be a little akward searching through the bible here.:2razz:

Calvanists contradict scripture.

As soon as I get my internet connection up and running, I will post verses that prove otherwise.

Do these verses seem to you that God handpicked certain people? I could you give hundreds more that are like these.

Wow, I don't remember encountering that verse before, but anyways, no need, there are many verse that are alot clearer on God's intent towards the subject.

Anyone who asks can receive Christ.

So, if Hitler and Stalin ask, they can recieve Christ? Hmm. that leaves doesn't quite fit well with me.

I knew many times what my children would decide to do if I gave them a few choices. They still made their own choices and some of them they faces consequences and i allowed them to do so. I knew they would.

Ok, that's fine, but you didn't know the consequences of their actions. They and yopu had to find out the hard way.

I can’t begin to understand the power of God. I don’t try. At some point you have to throw your hands up and just ask for His guidance and patience and for the Holy Spririt to intervene. I believe God can do anything. I believe he can know what we will do, but still give us the freedom to do it.

Well, in all actuality if you can't begin to undestand God's power, how can you make any statements about him?

Are we free? Do we have free will? If God exercises control over all events, are we free? What do you think?

Well I am not burdened with a God belief, so yes I think we are all free and have free will.

I do believe that an absolute freedom totally free of Gods control is simply not possible in a world sustained and directed by God Himself. If that is what someone means by free will, its inconsistent with Scriptures to say we have free will.

Bravo doughgirl.:2wave:

On the other hand we are free in the greatest sense that any living creature of God could be free-we make willing choices, choices that have real effects.

Yes, but God knows what choices we will make, and the effects of them. In that case, there is no free will, we are simply doing exactly as we are programmed. Like I said, we are acting out a play, and he is the director. A creator entity can't create something to do other than what it was made for. It's kinda like making an airplane, then making the skies, and expecting the plane to NOT fly through the skies.

I know I have no retraints on my will from God, when I make decisions. I act according to my desires. In this sense I have exercises free will.

Yes, but if God is all-knowing he would know you act according to the way you're programmed to, your desires. It's a bit like seeing a movie twice, you already know what's gonna happen, but you don't control the character's actions.

The lunatic that killed the little Amish girls exersised his free will. Andrea Yates who killed her small children in a bathtub exercised her free will. We have the power of carrying out and willing choices and these choices have real results in our universe. Our choices do matter. Our choices affect others.

How can you not hold God responsible for all of this? If I have an aquarium of peaceful fish set up, and place pirannhas in there, and they tear the fish to shreds, wouldn't you say it's my fault I put the piranhass in there? Well, God acted the same way here, putting Yates, Hitler, and the Amish shooter in this world.

What did Jesus lie about could you site some lies?

Well, like I said, were I'm at, It would be totally impractical to page through a bible now. So I cannot retrieve quotes other than the ones I recall. But I do remember that he said whoever calls someone "fool" will go to hell, yet he does the same thing twice, and so does God. So they set all these rules, but cannot follow them themselves? Nice.

Skeptics use this verse Matthew 10:34 a lot to point out that they think Jesus was violent. Few read the entire chapter however to understand it in context. Let me explain.
In this chapter Jesus starts to prepare His disciples for persecution, especially when they start ministering to others. Christ meant in this verse that, conflicts and disagreements will arise between those who choose to follow Him and those who don’t. He emphasized that Christian commitment may separate friends and loved ones. In saying this Jesus was not encouraging disobedience to parents or conflict at home. He was showing that his presence demands a decision, because some will follow Christ and some wont, and because of this, conflicts willl happen.

When you follow Christ, you are set apart by different values and morals, goals, and purposes than everyone else. Christ said don’t neglect family but remember first your commitment to God. This commandment is more important than family. God is first priority. Christians must take up their cross and follow Christ. And many who do face opposition, even death and suffering might happen.
This commitment might separate families………that is what Christ meant.

Yea, I'm not one of those people that thinks Jesus was violent persae. I think he loses his temper quite often, and shows signs of violence, but for the most part, Jesus was peaceful.

Because we all have sinned and fallen short and we deserve eternal punishment from God.

Let me ask you something..Do you think it's fair that God punishes eternally for crimes committed in a finite lifetime?

Christ died and earned salvation for each one of us.

If it were for mankind's sins, I think it was pretty pointless then. There is still sin in this world. If he solvented everything, we would all go to heaven, no questions asked.

If we ask forgiveness and repent and ask Him into our lives we are born again and receive everlasting life. If we do not accept Him (Christ), then WE MAKE the decision to live without God for all eternity after we die.

Ok, do you think it's fair of God to condemn 3/4 of th eworld simply because they subscribe to the wrong superstition?


Thanks for replying doughgirl.

 

[kal-el]

This is a thought experiment, not a statement of fact.

Suppose I know, perfectly, that you will go to school tommorow (which may be sciencetifically impossible, but assume for the sake of arguement). Suppose also, that you decide to go to school of you own free choice.

How does my knowlege of you going to school hinder your choice at all?

Hey Demosthenes. Bad analogy there bud, A parent can never know with 100% accuracy that their child will attend school. Even if they walk their child to the bus stop, and sit them in their seat at the bus, the bus can still crash, even though it's unlikely, you cannot rule it out with any reall certanty. Even if a parent drives them to school, besides the accident that could happen so their kid doesn't go to school, there's always the chance that once their kid walks through the doors, and the parent leaves, the kid will high tail it outta there. it's different with an all knowing God. If he knew when he set the universe in motion that I would go to the library today, I must. I think I am choosing I cannot choose to do other than an omniscient, omnipotent diety set out for me to do.

 

[kal-el]

I'll try to best describe it as the way that always made the most sense to me. God is omni-time, meaning He doesn't know time. I suppose the best analogy to use is something like reading a book once, and on the second time you read it you know what is going to happen but you don't control it.

Hi ignorance is bliss. You do relize the contadiction you posited. In that case, why call him God, if he's not omniscinet?

 

[kal-el]

I have nothing to say on this as your entire premise for the discussion is counter productive.

O c'mon Jerry. That's kinda a cop-out. I have been going out of my way to be nice, you can at least aknwlege this with some substance.

 

[kal-el]

Kal-l, let me try to help you understand a little better.

First, if you look in the book of Isiah the scriptures say that God's spirit shall not always strive with man...(?). This text is crucial in understanding what's called "Free Will" or "Permissive Will."

In modern thought we learn that "nothing happens by chance" which means nothing happens by accident and that everything is in some way meant to happen even if it's bad e.g. Life, Death, Love, Murder... These are things that in some way or another is destined to happen outside of our direct control. God has given us all the tools that we need to carry out our life i.e. Faith and Love. As we act through these virtues good things happen to us, even under the venear of evil sometimes e.g. You do a good work then something bad happens to you. Just remain patient. Stay like a Mountain.

Do not use three dimensional paradigms to describe God. God is not us. The scriptures say " His thoughts are not our thoughts and his ways are not our ways as far as the heavens are from the earth"(?). He can't think and perform like us because if he did he would be imperfect. God has already set the heavens and earth into motion so never worry whether he's controlling anything. Just trust in him and live your life with wisdom and discretion.

Hi Mctojo. How can you say something about God if he's uncomprehensible to us? Yes, if he set the heavens and earth in motion, that gives him responsibility for the actions of all the people who he created. Let's imagine for a sec that I make a gigantic neighborhhod overlooking a very high cliff. Then I place a number of families to live there. I PUT THEM IN THIS SITUATION. Now, a member of 1 of the families falls off the cliff. Do you say I have any blame for putting them unwillinglly in such a haphazardous situatuion? I could have constructed a better neighborhood on level ground that's safer. Sure, it would be different if the peole went to live there willingly, but that is not the case, and it's certantly not the case with humanity. We didn't ask God to create us and put us in this world.

 

[McTojo]

Hi Mctojo. How can you say something about God if he's uncomprehensible to us? Yes, if he set the heavens and earth in motion, that gives him responsibility for the actions of all the people who he created. Let's imagine for a sec that I make a gigantic neighborhhod overlooking a very high cliff. Then I place a number of families to live there. I PUT THEM IN THIS SITUATION. Now, a member of 1 of the families falls off the cliff. Do you say I have any blame for putting them unwillinglly in such a haphazardous situatuion? I could have constructed a better neighborhood on level ground that's safer. Sure, it would be different if the peole went to live there willingly, but that is not the case, and it's certantly not the case with humanity. We didn't ask God to create us and put us in this world.

First of all, no such word as uncomprehensible. Incomprehensible is a better term for this argument. God is incomprehensible to us because he is God. If people like you could understand him then you would be able to predict him. And it's because you are having this discussion is because you don't understand him and you never will, that's scriptural, in part because you are fallible and he is infallible. If God intended for everybody to understand him then you wouldn't need him, and if he didn't perform the way you thought he should perform, because you thought you understood him, then when he didn't do what he was supposed do according to your own imperfect logic then you create threads like this in order to argue his legitimacy. Sad.

God has already set things in motion. Good & Evil are part of that. We choose. In the end it's called manifest destiny.

God chose us not we chose him. We humans are the youngest species in existence today with the largest brains, but yet we are the stupidest of all creatures. We are the only species that have to be encouraged to live ! We create our own gods in order to justify our actions, even murder.

God has already set things in motion. You have to do the rest. And like I told you before, stop three dimensionalizing God into your own little paradigm because it's senseless. If you spend more time learning about people and less time trying for figure out God, a spirit who fastened the universe, then we would all live in a better world.

 

[kal-el]

First of all, no such word as uncomprehensible. Incomprehensible is a better term for this argument.

Sure I meant incomprehensible. I'm sure you knew that. Way to go for bringing up grammatical errors that are miniscully insignificant. I was in a hurry.

God is incomprehensible to us because he is God.

O man, first cause argument. Honestly though McTojo, do you know this for a fact? Because some 2,000 year old book tells you?

If people like you could understand him then you would be able to predict him. And it's because you are having this discussion is because you don't understand him and you never will, that's scriptural, in part because you are fallible and he is infallible. If God intended for everybody to understand him then you wouldn't need him, and if he didn't perform the way you thought he should perform, because you thought you understood him, then when he didn't do what he was supposed do according to your own imperfect logic then you create threads like this in order to argue his legitimacy. Sad.

No, what's sad is believing in something totally illogical and irrational without proper evidence. I believe in the bible one verse says to test all things. The truth of the matter is, if your God is so incomprehensilbe to us and we cannot even begin to understand him, unless you are God, you cannot pontificate for him.

God has already set things in motion. Good & Evil are part of that. We choose. In the end it's called manifest destiny.

I don't believe the words "manifest destiny" are in the bible, maybe you mean predestined. Anywho doesn't that contradict the idea that it is the responsibility of the person to react to the gospel call?

God chose us not we chose him.

What's the point in choosing if you already know what you are going to choose?

We humans are the youngest species in existence today with the largest brains, but yet we are the stupidest of all creatures. We are the only species that have to be encouraged to live ! We create our own gods in order to justify our actions, even murder.

:agree

God has already set things in motion. You have to do the rest.

Well, if a perfect God doesn't ensure everything is perfect it has not acted responsibly.

And like I told you before, stop three dimensionalizing God into your own little paradigm because it's senseless. If you spend more time learning about people and less time trying for figure out God, a spirit who fastened the universe, then we would all live in a better world.

I find it just a little hard to swallow that if I stopped trying to understand why so many believe in God that this world would be any better. I know what would make it better. When God wrote the 10 commandments, why didn't he outlaw all future wars? That would have saved alot of lives. If he's so loving and can do anything, why doesn't he magically zap into a doctor's head the solvent to AIDS and cancer? it could save numerous lives, and God would remain mysterious that way.