Free Speech

[NatMorton]

It is censorship if they were previously part of the circular but were removed because of their content that someone deemed to be offensive to their sensibilities.

No, it’s not censorship, It’s a question of lesson planning, no different than a decision to swap out an older text that asserted “Columbus discovered America.”

 

[Lisa]

No, it’s not censorship, It’s a question of lesson planning, no different than a decision to swap out an older text that asserted “Columbus discovered America.”

Columbus wasn't censored, despite your white fragility. Columbus wasn't even the first European to find north America. The fact that native peoples had been living here for well over 2000 years seems to be lost on you.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

I did. Only in the South and California could this happen.

Gov. Newsom jabs red states for banning book pulled in California​

A California school district pulled “To Kill a Mockingbird”​

As he jetted off for a two-week family vacation, Gov. Gavin Newsom jabbed his red-state rivals with a selfie tweet showing him seated at a table with an artfully arranged stack of novels and saying he’s “reading some banned books to figure out what these states are so afraid of.”

It didn’t take the Twitterverse long to point out that at least one of the four identifiable books in his stack — “To Kill a Mockingbird” — had been pulled from the curriculum recently by a California school district.

Gov. Newsom jabs red states for banning book pulled in California

Newsom took a swipe at efforts in Republican led states to give parents more control over school reading material with sexually explicit themes.

www.mercurynews.com

Letter to the Editor: Burbank High Student Wants Banned Books Returned to Classrooms​

Dear Editor,

I’d like to preface this with the fact that I am a student who attends Burbank High. I am a person of color, and I have a deep love of literature. I hope to only inform the public on this issue, and help others to understand the severity of the situation our public schools are dealing with- It has often been cast aside.

Last year, the Burbank Unified School District permanently removed five books from the English curriculum, meaning that these books are longer allowed to be discussed in class. Those five books, being The Cay; Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry; To Kill a Mockingbird; The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn; and Of Mice and Men. The district states, “these books are problematic in the following ways: they repeatedly use the n-word; they cast Black people in negative, hopeless, and secondary roles; and all but one are written from the lens of a White author.

Letter to the Editor: Burbank High Student Wants Banned Books Returned to Classrooms

"As a black student I have seen my voice disembodied."

myburbank.com

California school board votes to ban critical race theory​

PLACENTIAL, Calif. -- The Placentia-Yorba Linda School Board has voted to ban the teaching of critical race theory in its classrooms.

On Wednesday evening, the board made some changes to the ban before passing it by a vote of 3-2.

Many Republicans view the concepts underlying critical race theory as an effort to rewrite American history and convince white people that they are inherently racist and should feel guilty because of their advantages.

But the theory also has become somewhat of a catchall phrase to describe racial concepts some conservatives find objectionable, such as white privilege, systemic inequality and inherent bias.

California school board votes to ban critical race theory

The ban does not specify what would happen if a teacher were to violate the policy.

abc30.com

The Republican Party has captured the minds of those who live in the rural counties of America. Those voters are mostly farmers and rural shopkeepers. They lack education and they are not well-informed. Most of what they know about politics is by word of mouth, otherwise known as gossip.

Most Educated States 2022​

6. Virginia​

The sixth-most educated state in the U.S. is Virginia, which ranks seventh for Educational Attainment and eighth for quality of education. Virginia has the fourth-highest percentage of graduate or professional degree holders in the country at 16.1%. Some of the best universities in Virginia are the University of Virginia, James Madison University, the College of William & Mary, and Virginia Tech.

Most Educated States 2024

worldpopulationreview.com

California isn’t even in the top 10.

Most of them do not have a computer. Some do not have a television, and, if they do, they don't spend much time watching it.

Internet Access Rankings​

Loading…

www.usnews.com

California ranked lower than deep red GA.

Farming and ranching is not a eight hour job. It's more like an 18-hour job. The shopkeeper spends nearly all of his waking hours in his store because he doesn't have enough business to do otherwise.

It’s 2022, not the 1930’s.

Like I said, if you’re going to criticize Republicans/Trumpsters, stick to facts and leave out the ignorant stereotype broad brush attacks on Southernors.

 

[lurchadams]

Deuce:

? Why hijack the thread? The Takei book may be appropriate for older students but not for younger ones but honestly I don't know. I have not read the book, so I cannot comment further, I'm afraid.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

Banning books is the first step in turning us into an authoritarian nation. Why do you support that? Why does truth and actual history scare you so much? It's amazing how Republicans can leave their homes each day without crying.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

No, it’s not censorship, It’s a question of lesson planning, no different than a decision to swap out an older text that asserted “Columbus discovered America.”

That wrongly asserted Columbus found America, even though he never put a foot down here?

 

[vanceen]

Columbus wasn't censored, despite your white fragility. Columbus wasn't even the first European to find north America. The fact that native peoples had been living here for well over 2000 years seems to be lost on you.

NatMorton was making the point that Columbus didn't discover America. Not using texts that claim he did is, as his post pointed out, just a matter of lesson planning, not censorship. Just because something was viewed as OK at some point in the past doesn't mean that it's censorship or "banning" to stop using it now, which is what you claimed.

And for what it's worth, people had been living in the Americas for at least 14,000 years when Columbus arrived. Probably longer.

 

[vanceen]

No books have been "banned". Saying it over and over doesn't change that.

 

[The Mark]

Florida, Texas and other conservative controlled states have written laws that violate the first amendment.

The Bill of Rights and free speech applies to the government. Not private business.

A public school is the government. The governments of many conservative controlled states has taken free speech from children, teachers, parents and authors.

They have banned books and are banning more books. Even math books.

Yet conservatives are very upset about social media, which are private companies and the bill of rights doesn't apply to them, making rules about their websites then imposing the consequences of breaking those rules on those who break them.

Some conservatives cheer conservative governments on in their quest of taking free speech from children, teachers, parents and authors.

Some conservatives have been all over this board about free speech and social media sites but they cheer on taking free speech from those who have a different view from them.

I support free speech. I don't support hate, lies and propaganda.

I support private business. Ownership has it's privileges. The owners can set any rule they want within our laws. If I don't like their rules, I walk away from them. No one is forcing me to use their sites.

A private company isn't the public square. It's not the government.

A public school is the public square. It is the government. The governments of conservative states who are passing these anti free speech laws are violating the constitution.

I find it very sad that people pick and choose according to whether they agree with what is being said.

Those conservatives who support what conservative governments in conservative states are doing by taking free speech from children, teachers, parents and authors don't believe in free speech and are not being honest when they whine about trump not being able to spread lies, hate and propaganda all over one social media site.

trump has started his "truth" site. No one is stopping the conservatives from using it. No one is stopping trump from spreading his message of lies, hate and division.

Meanwhile, the children, teachers, parents and authors in conservative states don't have their right to free speech in public schools.

I assume you base that in part on this or a similar article?

Florida rejects 41% of new math textbooks, citing critical race theory among its reasons | CNN

The Florida Department of Education announced Friday the state has rejected more than 50 math textbooks from next school year's curriculum, citing references to critical race theory among reasons for the rejections.

www.cnn.com

 

[KLATTU]

Yes. Flagged as unproven. Not removed though.

That post should be deleted.

Remember, we’re talking about a private company with no 1st amendment requirement. You don’t have to like that, but as someone that supports the Constitution you should be prepared to stand behind a privately owned company’s right to police it’s content as it sees fit under the law.

the question was never that they had the right to police their content. They most certainly do. The question is whether they should. And also not pretend they are doing one thing - monitoring for false/offensive content- when they are clearly doing another-monitoring for content that doesn't fit the left narrative.
(This is what this site does ,by the way.)

 

[Evilroddy]

Under what/who’s authority would schools be shut down? Is that something teachers in Canada can do?

RaleBulgarian:

If no teachers turn up for work, then no schools can operate. Industrial Action (Strike) until the state government rescinds such laws. The authority which teachers have is they and not politicians are trained and certified to teach students.

Do you really believe there is a legal mechanism in the United States that allows for taking school/students education hostage?

Industrial Action (strike) or Mass Resignation. No teachers, no schooling, millions of angry parents. Government looks progressively more impotent. Change is forced. No teachers return to work until all are rehired.

Again, where does the authority come from?

Teachers are trained and certified to teach. There is the authority.

A possible future solution for a present problem.

Start now. Don't wait.

On what grounds? Please, be specific.

Breach of collective agreements, creating a hostile workplace, endangering the separation of Church and State (1st Amendment). I'm sure creative lawyers will find many more justifications.

Goes without saying.

You know that. I know that. Good luck trying to explain it to all of the idiot Trumpster parents across America losing their minds over a right wing propaganda bogeyman.

Force any parent, Trumpster or not, to take a course on basic educational standards and educational history/institutions and demand that they certify before taking a place on a parents' committee. Ignore the ones who can't be bothered to qualify for a place.

A fantasy solution to a real problem.

Political will and determination among teachers can make some well-grounded fantasies real. Every Masters graduate or PhD is a fantasy which came true by the cooperative hard work and determination of both students and teachers. Every doctor or engineer is a fantasy realised.

Who is going to “make” parents prove that a book is inappropriate? School board members are elected by the local community and are answerable, in large part, to those parents that want books removed, or curriculum revised.

Library review tribunals, instituted by the Federal Government if necessary in order to protect the 1st Amendment..

Make parents prove to a board of librarians that books should be removed? No such mechanism exists.

Create them, now.

Canadian teachers must have quite a bit more authority/influence than American teachers.

No, just more guts. In Québec in the early 1970's, the Liberal provincial government of Robert Bourassa decided to try to force all immigrants into French only education programmes. The teachers went on strike en masse. The government passed draconian back-to-work legislation. The teachers threatened to resign en masse. The provincial government passed a law forbidding teachers from resigning. The teachers went to work but didn't do anything but picket, knowing that the government's only option would be to fire them. The government finally capitulated.

The victory stood for five years until the separatist Parti Québecois won an election in 1977 and passed unconstitutional legislation to deny immigrants access to English education in the province. Canadian courts eventually struck down many parts of the new legislation but could not dismantle it entirely. Then fighting separatism, not defending educational rights became the Canadian Government's prime concern and immigrants were thrown under the political bus. The teachers tried again to stop it but were unsuccessful on the second attempt.

However their first victory proved it could be done.

* BTW, it’s RaleBulgarian.

My apologies.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

the question was never that they had the right to police their content. They most certainly do. The question is whether they should. And also not pretend they are doing one thing - monitoring for false/offensive content- when they are clearly doing another-monitoring for content that doesn't fit the left narrative.
(This is what this site does ,by the way.)

Asserting widespread and frequent unfair censorship of right wing/conservative views is a common complaint by those on the right.

When asked to present proof of their belief, most either run away, or can only offer one or two debatable references.

 

[Evilroddy]

Banning books is the first step in turning us into an authoritarian nation. Why do you support that? Why does truth and actual history scare you so much? It's amazing how Republicans can leave their homes each day without crying.

lurchadams:

Please point out where I said any books should be banned. Not used in classroom instruction, yes but banned, no. I did not say that'a you books be banned. I said that some books and some topics are not appropriate for certain levels of students. Nothing is being forbidden or banned, just delayed until the students can understand and process it. There is a reason we don't teach Dostoyevski's "War and Peace" to grade schoolers. There is a reason that CRT instruction is beyond the ken of all but the most apt senior high schoolers.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[KLATTU]

Asserting widespread and frequent unfair censorship of right wing/conservative views is a common complaint by those on the right.

When asked to present proof of their belief, most either run away, or can only offer one or two debatable references.

If you dont get that twitter and facebook are run by left wingers then you are delusion. If you believe such people bury their lw bias in censoring posts, you are equally delusional. A recent spate of posts that grocery prices and gas prices were all rising because of ‘greed’ is an example of clear misinformation that were not flagged

 

[lurchadams]

lurchadams:

Please point out where I said any books should be banned. Not used in classroom instruction, yes but banned, no. I did not say that'a you books be banned. I said that some books and some topics are not appropriate for certain levels of students. Nothing is being forbidden or banned, just delayed until the students can understand and process it. There is a reason we don't teach Dostoyevski's "War and Peace" to grade schoolers. There is a reason that CRT instruction is beyond the ken of all but the most apt senior high schoolers.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

So, tell me this, @Evilroddy . A 7 year-old kid comes up to his teacher. He says, "Hey, Mrs. Miller, how come Johnny has two mommies and I only have one?".

And you want the teacher today, "NO, MARISSA! YOU CAN'T ASK ME QUESTIONS LIKE THAT!!! YOU NEED TO ASK YOUR OWN MOMMY AND DADDY!!!!:

So Marissa spends the rest of the day, angry and frustrated, thinking there's something really wrong with Johnny.

This is why Republicans are so ****ed, @Evilroddy . You are doing our children and this nation great harm. Please. Get out of the way and let the adults lead?

Thanks.

 

[Buckeyes85]

You Trumpers are shameless in your hypocrisy. You whine incessantly about Trump being banned from twitter due to his incessant lying and misinformation campaign, then complain about those platforms spreading misinformation.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

If you dont get that twitter and facebook are run by left wingers then you are delusion. If you believe such people bury their lw bias in censoring posts, you are equally delusional.

This ^ is an example of what I referred to in my last post. Assertions of unfair, discriminatory bias, but little to no proof to back up the vast majority of claims.

A recent spate of posts that grocery prices and gas prices were all rising because of ‘greed’ is an example of clear misinformation that were not flagged

Can you provide any examples of folks on social media claiming that simple greed is the cause for increasing food and fuel costs?

 

[Lisa]

NatMorton was making the point that Columbus didn't discover America. Not using texts that claim he did is, as his post pointed out, just a matter of lesson planning, not censorship. Just because something was viewed as OK at some point in the past doesn't mean that it's censorship or "banning" to stop using it now, which is what you claimed.

And for what it's worth, people had been living in the Americas for at least 14,000 years when Columbus arrived. Probably longer.

Nobody has ever claimed that Columbus was censored. AFAIK.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

If no teachers turn up for work, then no schools can operate. Industrial Action (Strike) until the state government rescinds such laws. The authority which teachers have is they and not politicians are trained and certified to teach students.

Industrial Action (strike) or Mass Resignation. No teachers, no schooling, millions of angry parents. Government looks progressively more impotent. Change is forced. No teachers return to work until all are rehired.

In the United States, teachers do not have authority to strike because they disagree with lawful legislation.

There may be a process for handling disputes regarding curriculum, but I doubt it would allow for striking over lawful legislation.

Teachers are trained and certified to teach. There is the authority.

I believe you’re confusing authority with certifications/qualifications.

Breach of collective agreements, creating a hostile workplace, endangering the separation of Church and State (1st Amendment). I'm sure creative lawyers will find many more justifications.

Throwing stuff at the wall, hoping something sticks doesn’t sound like a good defense against anti-CRT legislation or book banning.

Force any parent, Trumpster or not, to take a course on basic educational standards and educational history/institutions and demand that they certify before taking a place on a parents' committee. Ignore the ones who can't be bothered to qualify for a place.

The issue isn’t that Trumpster parents are simply ignorant through no fault of their own. The issue is willfully ignorant Trumpster parents that are vehemently anti-logic and anti-fact.

Library review tribunals, instituted by the Federal Government if necessary in order to protect the 1st Amendment.

A federal library review tribunal would almost certainly be a violation of the 10th amendment.

 

[vanceen]

Nobody has ever claimed that Columbus was censored. AFAIK.

I don't know if anyone has claimed that either.

I also don't know what it has to do with my post, nor with the post from NatMorton that you seem to object to.

His point (which I think would be obvious to anyone who took a minute to calm down and read the words) is that changing textbooks which have previously been deemed suitable is not "banning" or censorship. You said earlier:

It is censorship if they were previously part of the circular but were removed because of their content that someone deemed to be offensive to their sensibilities.

That is not true. Changing away from textbooks that claim Columbus "discovered" the Americas is an example. Another good example would be the countless old textbooks that have been superceded because they characterized Native Americans or people in other parts of the world as "savages". Choosing not to use those and to instead choose something else is not "censorship", despite the fact that they were once considered acceptable and were discontinued, in part because they were offensive to people's sensibilities.
[/QUOTE]

 

[Sandy Shanks]

A California school district pulled “To Kill a Mockingbird”

One school banned one book. That hardly compares to a southern state banning 54 math books.

Virginia is a quasi southern state with an enormous northern interest. The federal government is a dominant force in northern Virginia. Both the Pentagon and CIA headquarters are located in Virginia.

 

[Linuxcooldude]

One school banned one book. That hardly compares to a southern state banning 54 math books.

Virginia is a quasi southern state with an enormous northern interest. The federal government is a dominant force in northern Virginia. Both the Pentagon and CIA headquarters are located in Virginia.

Not just CRT related. Book makers are also going back to common core the school district is moving away from.

 

[Indydave]

Florida, Texas and other conservative controlled states have written laws that violate the first amendment.

The Bill of Rights and free speech applies to the government. Not private business.

A public school is the government. The governments of many conservative controlled states has taken free speech from children, teachers, parents and authors.

They have banned books and are banning more books. Even math books.

Yet conservatives are very upset about social media, which are private companies and the bill of rights doesn't apply to them, making rules about their websites then imposing the consequences of breaking those rules on those who break them.

Some conservatives cheer conservative governments on in their quest of taking free speech from children, teachers, parents and authors.

Some conservatives have been all over this board about free speech and social media sites but they cheer on taking free speech from those who have a different view from them.

I support free speech. I don't support hate, lies and propaganda.

I support private business. Ownership has it's privileges. The owners can set any rule they want within our laws. If I don't like their rules, I walk away from them. No one is forcing me to use their sites.

A private company isn't the public square. It's not the government.

A public school is the public square. It is the government. The governments of conservative states who are passing these anti free speech laws are violating the constitution.

I find it very sad that people pick and choose according to whether they agree with what is being said.

Those conservatives who support what conservative governments in conservative states are doing by taking free speech from children, teachers, parents and authors don't believe in free speech and are not being honest when they whine about trump not being able to spread lies, hate and propaganda all over one social media site.

trump has started his "truth" site. No one is stopping the conservatives from using it. No one is stopping trump from spreading his message of lies, hate and division.

Meanwhile, the children, teachers, parents and authors in conservative states don't have their right to free speech in public schools.

yeah but free speech is only for conservatives......right?........I mean we cannot let every Tom Dick and Jamal just say anything they want

 

[Evilroddy]

So, tell me this, @Evilroddy . A 7 year-old kid comes up to his teacher. He says, "Hey, Mrs. Miller, how come Johnny has two mommies and I only have one?".

And you want the teacher today, "NO, MARISSA! YOU CAN'T ASK ME QUESTIONS LIKE THAT!!! YOU NEED TO ASK YOUR OWN MOMMY AND DADDY!!!!:

So Marissa spends the rest of the day, angry and frustrated, thinking there's something really wrong with Johnny.

This is why Republicans are so ****ed, @Evilroddy . You are doing our children and this nation great harm. Please. Get out of the way and let the adults lead?

Thanks.

Lurchadams:

Marrisa's and Johnny's teacher takes Marissa aside for five minutes at lunch or at recess but outside of the classroom and explains why some families have a mommy and a daddy, why some have two mommies, why some have two daddies and why some have only just one mommy or just one daddy. Problem solved because that's counselling an upset student outside of the classroom, not teaching them inside a classroom. There are legal ways around every foolish law if you care to be creative.

Please don't tell others to get out of your way in matters of politics in a free society as almost everyone has a legitimate place to speak their mind in a debate forum and in public life. It is your ideologically blinded politicians who are doing your society great harm. I live in a separate country and have quite literally zero impact on the American political landscape. I am harming no one here.

Oh, I am not a Republican. I am not an adherent of any one political party in Canada. I vote for politicians of different parties at different levels of government depending on their platforms and their reputations as good representatives and leaders.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[reflechissez]

One school banned one book. That hardly compares to a southern state banning 54 math books.

Virginia is a quasi southern state with an enormous northern interest. The federal government is a dominant force in northern Virginia. Both the Pentagon and CIA headquarters are located in Virginia.

Lots of very wealthy government contractors, lawyers, lobbyists, etc. live in NoVa.

 

[reflechissez]

Lurchadams:

Marrisa's and Johnny's teacher takes Marissa aside for five minutes at lunch or at recess but outside of the classroom and explains why some families have a mommy and a daddy, why some have two mommies, why some have two daddies and why some have only just one mommy or just one daddy. Problem solved because that's counselling an upset student outside of the classroom, not teaching them inside a classroom. There are legal ways around every foolish law if you care to be creative.

Please don't tell others to get out of your way in matters of politics in a free society as almost everyone has a legitimate place to speak their mind in a debate forum and in public life. It is your ideologically blinded politicians who are doing your society great harm. I live in a separate country and have quite literally zero impact on the American political landscape. I am harming no one here.

Oh, I am not a Republican. I am not an adherent of any one political party in Canada. I vote for politicians of different parties at different levels of government depending on their platforms and their reputations as good representatives and leaders.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

That's ridiculous. All the teacher has to say is that are different kinds of families.