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Free Speech vs Free Association

Yes or no?


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spud_meister

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So a friend of mine seems to think that being shunned and ridiculed for his bigoted opinions is a violation of his freedom of speech? So my question is, do you think this is the case? And does freedom of speech trump freedom of association?
 

Excon

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So a friend of mine seems to think that being shunned and ridiculed for his bigoted opinions is a violation of his freedom of speech?
In what manner?
On a personal basis?
Or is it in relation to someone speaking at an event?


So my question is, do you think this is the case?
It depends on the above questions.


And does freedom of speech trump freedom of association?
Freedom of association should be considered the same thing.
The Government in relation to it's citizens should not be able to choose who it associates with, but individuals should be able to choose.
 

Redress

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So a friend of mine seems to think that being shunned and ridiculed for his bigoted opinions is a violation of his freedom of speech? So my question is, do you think this is the case? And does freedom of speech trump freedom of association?

Freedom of speech means the government won't stop you from saying something. It does not mean there will not be repercussions for saying it, just that those repercussions won't come from the government.
 

Kobie

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So a friend of mine seems to think that being shunned and ridiculed for his bigoted opinions is a violation of his freedom of speech? So my question is, do you think this is the case? And does freedom of speech trump freedom of association?

See my sig.

If people choose not to associate with a person who says objectionable things, they are exercising their own freedom of association.
 

ajn678

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You are free to say whatever you want in public(generally). Just because you say it, doesn't mean that your job, or the people you associate with have to put up with it. While I wish people had thicker skin in general when it comes to certain topics, they are freely able to not have to listen to it. The only problem that occurs is when the government steps in. And that is not what is happening in the case that you mentioned.
 

RabidAlpaca

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So a friend of mine seems to think that being shunned and ridiculed for his bigoted opinions is a violation of his freedom of speech? So my question is, do you think this is the case? And does freedom of speech trump freedom of association?

Obviously you're Australian so it might be a little different, but in America you have a right to free speech, not a right to be free from criticism. The people criticizing your friend and telling him he's an asshole are just exercising their own free speech.

Tell him to buck up and maybe ask himself why nobody wants to associate with him.
 

joG

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So a friend of mine seems to think that being shunned and ridiculed for his bigoted opinions is a violation of his freedom of speech? So my question is, do you think this is the case? And does freedom of speech trump freedom of association?

Your friend is mixed up. Free speech is when you can babble nonsense. Free association is when I can stand up and and walk away, while you babble on. ;)
 

roguenuke

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In what manner?
On a personal basis?
Or is it in relation to someone speaking at an event?


It depends on the above questions.


Freedom of association should be considered the same thing.
The Government in relation to it's citizens should not be able to choose who it associates with, but individuals should be able to choose.

So an individual at the dmv should be able to choose not to have to associate with certain people who work at the dmv, to have their tests given and paperwork done by only certain types of people?
 

tres borrachos

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So a friend of mine seems to think that being shunned and ridiculed for his bigoted opinions is a violation of his freedom of speech? So my question is, do you think this is the case? And does freedom of speech trump freedom of association?

No, whoever is voicing the bigoted opinion is exercising his right to free speech. People who shun him are exercising their rights to free association. I understand where he's going, but he's incorrect.
 

TheGoverness

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So a friend of mine seems to think that being shunned and ridiculed for his bigoted opinions is a violation of his freedom of speech? So my question is, do you think this is the case? And does freedom of speech trump freedom of association?
No. Not at all. If his freedom of speech was being violated, they wouldn't be allowing him to speak at all, right? You don't have a right to not be criticised.
 

Dragonfly

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So a friend of mine seems to think that being shunned and ridiculed for his bigoted opinions is a violation of his freedom of speech? So my question is, do you think this is the case? And does freedom of speech trump freedom of association?

So your friend thinks he should be able to say anything he wants, but the people around him don't have that same right?
 

Jesse Booth

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So an individual at the dmv should be able to choose not to have to associate with certain people who work at the dmv, to have their tests given and paperwork done by only certain types of people?

No, but you're free to quit your job if you can't stand your coworkers.
 

Quag

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Not hanging around someone because you dont like what they say is neither violating their free speech nor their freedom of association.
 

Ikari

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So a friend of mine seems to think that being shunned and ridiculed for his bigoted opinions is a violation of his freedom of speech? So my question is, do you think this is the case? And does freedom of speech trump freedom of association?

He's not being arrested for hanging out with certain groups of folk, is he?
 

Excon

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So an individual at the dmv should be able to choose not to have to associate with certain people who work at the dmv, to have their tests given and paperwork done by only certain types of people?
Really?
You do not understand that usually a worker of the Government represents the Government and not their self?
Wow!
 

radcen

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So a friend of mine seems to think that being shunned and ridiculed for his bigoted opinions is a violation of his freedom of speech? So my question is, do you think this is the case? And does freedom of speech trump freedom of association?
Presuming it is as you state, then no, his right to free speech is not being violated.
 

Cephus

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Your friend is an idiot. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences. Being able to freely associate with people does not obligate people who don't like you to hang around with you. Where do people get these stupid ideas?
 

roguenuke

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Really?
You do not understand that usually a worker of the Government represents the Government and not their self?
Wow!

Do you not understand the point? A member of the public could still view that person as whatever they don't wish to associate with. So are there limits? Just because someone represents the government doesn't mean the public becomes blind to their characteristics, no matter how much we would like.
 

reinoe

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freedom of speech does not mean someone is free from the effects of that speech. Many conservatives are confused by this.
 

reinoe

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So an individual at the dmv should be able to choose not to have to associate with certain people who work at the dmv, to have their tests given and paperwork done by only certain types of people?

Yes, those people are free to get their DMV business done over the phone or by mail.
 

Deuce

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Do you not understand the point? A member of the public could still view that person as whatever they don't wish to associate with. So are there limits? Just because someone represents the government doesn't mean the public becomes blind to their characteristics, no matter how much we would like.

I think we're confusing the scenario. The government employee at the DMV can't say "NO BLACKS ALLOWED," because they're being paid to represent the government and the government is legally prohibited from doing things like that. But some random member of the public can say "I wont have my paperwork done by a filthy redhead!" They're a private individual with the right to turn around and walk out the door.

To which the DMV, I'm sure, would respond "OK see ya."

At least, I hope that's what the position in question is. Other way around doesn't make any sense.
 

roguenuke

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I think we're confusing the scenario. The government employee at the DMV can't say "NO BLACKS ALLOWED," because they're being paid to represent the government and the government is legally prohibited from doing things like that. But some random member of the public can say "I wont have my paperwork done by a filthy redhead!" They're a private individual with the right to turn around and walk out the door.

To which the DMV, I'm sure, would respond "OK see ya."

At least, I hope that's what the position in question is. Other way around doesn't make any sense.

But that citizen can't demand the government provide him or her with someone else who they do approve of. That is the point. That person can wait or go to a different office, but that is their options.
 

Deuce

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But that citizen can't demand the government provide him or her with someone else who they do approve of. That is the point. That person can wait or go to a different office, but that is their options.

That I agree with. While I would love for every government employee to be a clone of Scarlett Johansson the government is under no obligation to make that happen for me.
 

roguenuke

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Yes, those people are free to get their DMV business done over the phone or by mail.

If it can be. There are other options, but that doesn't mean you get to choose exactly who does what for you.

You can't take a driving test over the phone or by mail. You can go to a different office or wait, but that would basically be your choice.
 
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