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Free market immigration reform

Starbuck

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This is a carry-over from off topic debate in another thread​

From what I gather, the immigration debate centers around several key points:

  • Employment- are there enough jobs for both legal and illegal residents?
  • Welfare/ Health Care- are undocumented residents a net burden on legal residents/ citizens
  • Crime- what is the overall impact on our national crime levels, considering undocumented residents
  • Cultural- what is the overall affect on the American culture from illegal immigration
 

keith

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This is a carry-over from off topic debate in another thread​

From what I gather, the immigration debate centers around several key points:

  • Employment- are there enough jobs for both legal and illegal residents?
  • Welfare/ Health Care- are undocumented residents a net burden on legal residents/ citizens
  • Crime- what is the overall impact on our national crime levels, considering undocumented residents
  • Cultural- what is the overall affect on the American culture from illegal immigration
I would say for many Hispanics family unification is an issue, probably the most important one.
 

Starbuck

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the fact is we have in our jails/prisons 96,000 non citizens. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/p10.pdf at an average incarceration/bare minimum rate of $26,000 annually, https://www.federalregister.gov/art...etermination-of-average-cost-of-incarceration that comes out to be $2 ½ billion dollars per year.
Incarceration in the United States is a huge problem, I'm pretty sure that more people are in our jails than the total population for small countries.

So, before we even talk about the 100,000 illegal immigrants currently residing in our prison system, we should probably talk about the problem as a whole. Why on earth do we need to have 2 million people in jail, with another 4 million on parole/ probation?

When thinking about the whole thing I often wonder how many of those people are incarcerated for simple things that shouldn't even be crimes. . . much less jail-able offenses.

As far as the number of undocumented residents in our prisons, I also wonder how many of them are in prison for immigration problems alone. I other words, if they were to have been able to easily immigrate into the United States in the first place. . . and have legal residence, would they be in prison in the first place?

I'd be that would cut the number of people in prison down quite a bit. . . perhaps the nearly 10,000 people in prisons run by ICE could be released if they weren't punished for draconian immigration laws.

Additionally, if we were to slack of on our prohibition style drug enforcement, I'd imagine that that number would drop by at least another 30%. . . so that'd put the total of illegal immigrants that should actually be in jail at around 40,000 and therefore at least cut the cost in half.



Does not include the cost/damages and misery to US citizens and families by these folks…, nor would it cover costs to investigate nor adjudicate these crimes. Understanding that not all those would be illegal, but would have to assume the majority are...that is something to ponder.
I'd say that the cost/ misery to US citizens by illegal immigrants is just about equal to the cost/ misery to US citizens by a similarly sized group of legal residents.

People are people, you collect 11 million people and there are going to be plenty of jerks.


How much might that be if we just had open borders? Who knows but probably a lot more and a lot more misery to US citizens.
Honestly, if we were to drastically reduce the red-tape involved with immigration and allowed people to easily enter the country legally, the misery in this place would go down.

Millions of otherwise innocent and hardworking people could stop being second-class humans and actually participate in society.
 

Starbuck

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I would say for many Hispanics family unification is an issue, probably the most important one.
Honestly, I'd bet that is completely true.

That being the case, why should be. . . as a country, place additional burden on people who simply want to be with family?
 

APACHERAT

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This is a carry-over from off topic debate in another thread​

From what I gather, the immigration debate centers around several key points:

  • Employment- are there enough jobs for both legal and illegal residents?
  • Welfare/ Health Care- are undocumented residents a net burden on legal residents/ citizens
  • Crime- what is the overall impact on our national crime levels, considering undocumented residents
  • Cultural- what is the overall affect on the American culture from illegal immigration
•Employment- are there enough jobs for both legal and illegal residents? No.

•Welfare/ Health Care- are undocumented residents a net burden on legal residents/ citizenses, YES. All you have to do is look at California. Better yet, walk into any county hospital in Southern California.

•Crime- what is the overall impact on our national crime levels, considering undocumented residents. Again pay a visit to L.A. County Jail or any county jail in Southern California. Ot visit any state prison in California, Arizona, Nevada or Texas. Better yet, look at who are taking up space in our federal prisons.

•Cultural- what is the overall affect on the American culture from illegal immigration. The damage to America's culture, customs and language has already happened. The question should be, can we take our country back ?
 

APACHERAT

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I would say for many Hispanics family unification is an issue, probably the most important one.
Before 1965 IRA, America's immigration policies were what was best for America not what was best for the immigrant or any particular political party.

Family reunification is about what's best for the immigrant and not what's best for America.

The current family reunification policies have been a complete disaster for America.
 

Starbuck

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•Employment- are there enough jobs for both legal and illegal residents? No.
Maybe there isn't, but are Americans actually willing to take up the jobs that are vacant? Honestly though, I'd say that if we granted people legal right to work here, wages would rise for everyone involved. Including Citizens and already legal residents.

•Welfare/ Health Care- are undocumented residents a net burden on legal residents/ citizenses, YES. All you have to do is look at California. Better yet, walk into any county hospital in Southern California.
Nationally speaking, health care for illegal immigrants costs about $6 billion. Most of that is covered through private insurance and out-of-pocket payments. The tax payers pay about $1 billion, which is slim in comparison with the $400 billion we spend on healthcare otherwise.

•Crime- what is the overall impact on our national crime levels, considering undocumented residents. Again pay a visit to L.A. County Jail or any county jail in Southern California. Ot visit any state prison in California, Arizona, Nevada or Texas. Better yet, look at who are taking up space in our federal prisons.
I'd agree that there are a lot of illegal/ undocumented people incarcerated in border states, but the question should be. . . why are they in there to begin with? I'd be the majority of them are in there for non-violent crimes (minor drug charges or immigration issues). If we stopped throwing people into jail so easily, maybe that'd change.

•Cultural- what is the overall affect on the American culture from illegal immigration. The damage to America's culture, customs and language has already happened. The question should be, can we take our country back ?
Aren't we a nation of immigrants. Was it much of a problem when everyone came over from Ireland during the famine?
 

Starbuck

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Before 1965 IRA, America's immigration policies were what was best for America not what was best for the immigrant or any particular political party.
Isn't the country who it is made up of?

That being the case, what's best for immigrants is best for America.
 

APACHERAT

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Maybe there isn't, but are Americans actually willing to take up the jobs that are vacant? Honestly though, I'd say that if we granted people legal right to work here, wages would rise for everyone involved. Including Citizens and already legal residents.
Actually every time America has heavy restrictions or low immigration, wages increase in America. It's supply and demand. When there's a large number of immigrants wages decrease in America.

The same thing is true with the middle class, Large immigration numbers have always had a negative effect on the middle class. The only people who benefit from large number of immigrants are industries that hire unskilled labor.
 

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Nationally speaking, health care for illegal immigrants costs about $6 billion. Most of that is covered through private insurance and out-of-pocket payments. The tax payers pay about $1 billion, which is slim in comparison with the $400 billion we spend on healthcare otherwise.
Your numbers don't jive. When we just look at what illegal aliens cost the county taxpayers of Los Angeles County alone.

>[Supervisor Antonovich] - With an additional $54 million in welfare payments issued in April to illegal alien parents for their native-born children, the Los Angeles County Department of Public Social Services projects that more than $650 million in welfare benefits will be distributed to illegal alien parents in 2013, Supervisor Michael D. Antonovich said Friday.

The $54 million spent in the month of April alone, consists of nearly $20 million in CalWORKs (welfare) and $35 million in food stamps — representing 20% of all CalWORKs and food stamp issuances in the County. At this rate, the projected annual cost is approximately $650 million.

“When you add the $550 million for public safety and nearly $500 million for healthcare, the total cost for illegal immigrants to County taxpayers exceeds $1.6 billion dollars a year,” said Antonovich. “These costs do not even include the hundreds of millions of dollars spent annually for education.” <

SCVNews.com | Antonovich: Illegal Aliens Cost County $54 Mil. Monthly | 06-14-2013

In California, the state government spends around $14 billion dollars on state services for illegal aliens after figuring in what little in taxes they pay into the system.

When you look at just legal immigrants in all of America, over half are receiving some kind of public assistance.

Basically since 1965 America has been bringing in millions of uneducated and unskilled immigrants who usually end up becoming dependent on government. That's why Democrats want open borders and amnesty. These new immigrants are the base of the Democrat Party who want free stuff.
 

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Isn't the country who it is made up of?

That being the case, what's best for immigrants is best for America.
If you are referring to the myth that we our a nation of immigrants, we never have been.

At no time in North America has the immigrants ever outnumbered the native born.
 

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I think the pro-immigration fanatics would have a much easier time if they would clearly explain what the benefit to to the United States has been of allowing 40 million uneducated and unskilled Mexicans, all with huge numbers of small children, into the United States. At this point, it appears to have had disastrous consequences for America and American families and children.
 

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Actually every time America has heavy restrictions or low immigration, wages increase in America. It's supply and demand. When there's a large number of immigrants wages decrease in America.

The same thing is true with the middle class, Large immigration numbers have always had a negative effect on the middle class. The only people who benefit from large number of immigrants are industries that hire unskilled labor.
Actually, heavy immigration restrictions have directly coincided with bad times in Americas history. . . the great depression being one of them.

As far as the middle class, many people who immigrate are skilled laborers, looking for a chance to advance their circumstances through the hard-work and opportunity available in the United States. I haven't seen any studies that represent immigrants as threatening the middle class.

I think corporate interests have been more damaging to the middle class than anything.
 

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Your numbers don't jive. When we just look at what illegal aliens cost the county taxpayers of Los Angeles County alone.
My numbers were taken directly from Reuters and Pew research, relatively credible sources.

First of all, illegal immigrants are not eligible for public assistance and while I'm sure that some considerable money has been spent, especially in LA county I don't know if it is quite as dire as the one unconfirmed report from a controversial career politician paints it.

Second of all, nearly all undocumented workers actually do pay income taxes.

In California, the state government spends around $14 billion dollars on state services for illegal aliens after figuring in what little in taxes they pay into the system.
Actually, considering that undocumented workers have contributed upwards of $18billion in Texas alone, I'd say that theres a fair chance that they contribute more in California. . . thereby offsetting the burden.
 

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If you are referring to the myth that we our a nation of immigrants, we never have been.

At no time in North America has the immigrants ever outnumbered the native born.
What do you consider an immigrant?
 

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I would say for many Hispanics family unification is an issue, probably the most important one.
I think that's a false premise used to get people here as there is nothing stopping them from unifying in Mexico.
 

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Incarceration in the United States is a huge problem, I'm pretty sure that more people are in our jails than the total population for small countries.

So, before we even talk about the 100,000 illegal immigrants currently residing in our prison system, we should probably talk about the problem as a whole. Why on earth do we need to have 2 million people in jail, with another 4 million on parole/ probation?

When thinking about the whole thing I often wonder how many of those people are incarcerated for simple things that shouldn't even be crimes. . . much less jail-able offenses.

As far as the number of undocumented residents in our prisons, I also wonder how many of them are in prison for immigration problems alone. I other words, if they were to have been able to easily immigrate into the United States in the first place. . . and have legal residence, would they be in prison in the first place?

I'd be that would cut the number of people in prison down quite a bit. . . perhaps the nearly 10,000 people in prisons run by ICE could be released if they weren't punished for draconian immigration laws.

Additionally, if we were to slack of on our prohibition style drug enforcement, I'd imagine that that number would drop by at least another 30%. . . so that'd put the total of illegal immigrants that should actually be in jail at around 40,000 and therefore at least cut the cost in half.





I'd say that the cost/ misery to US citizens by illegal immigrants is just about equal to the cost/ misery to US citizens by a similarly sized group of legal residents.

People are people, you collect 11 million people and there are going to be plenty of jerks.




Honestly, if we were to drastically reduce the red-tape involved with immigration and allowed people to easily enter the country legally, the misery in this place would go down.

Millions of otherwise innocent and hardworking people could stop being second-class humans and actually participate in society.
How is it draconian to want people to respect our sovergnty and respect our imagrants on procress? If these people are given a pass on a set of laws do I get to choose a set of laws I don't have to follow because I think they are draconian? If so I pick gun laws.
 

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Maybe there isn't, but are Americans actually willing to take up the jobs that are vacant? Honestly though, I'd say that if we granted people legal right to work here, wages would rise for everyone involved. Including Citizens and already legal residents.



Nationally speaking, health care for illegal immigrants costs about $6 billion. Most of that is covered through private insurance and out-of-pocket payments. The tax payers pay about $1 billion, which is slim in comparison with the $400 billion we spend on healthcare otherwise.



I'd agree that there are a lot of illegal/ undocumented people incarcerated in border states, but the question should be. . . why are they in there to begin with? I'd be the majority of them are in there for non-violent crimes (minor drug charges or immigration issues). If we stopped throwing people into jail so easily, maybe that'd change.



Aren't we a nation of immigrants. Was it much of a problem when everyone came over from Ireland during the famine?
1 they aren't willing to do those jobs because we pay them to sit on ass.
2figures to back up that statement?
3 we are a country of laws we can not make carte Blanche exceptions for entire people groups without damaging our legal system.
4 our ancestors assimilated these people are not all you have to do is go down to a border to see that.
 

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How is it draconian to want people to respect our sovergnty and respect our imagrants on procress? If these people are given a pass on a set of laws do I get to choose a set of laws I don't have to follow because I think they are draconian? If so I pick gun laws.
The process is draconian. . . there is no earthly reason for it to take 1+ years for someone to immigrate, from any country. When my ancestors immigrated from Ireland, the whole process happened at Ellis Island and it didn't take a week, much less a year.

When you think about the reasons why a family would choose to leave their country of origin, generally speaking most of them are either in dire-straits and waiting a year could be the difference between survival or something worse.

The laws are the problem, and just like gun laws. . . they should be changed. I don't recommend ignoring the gun laws, but all the same I don't advocate following them either.
 

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1 they aren't willing to do those jobs because we pay them to sit on ass.
2figures to back up that statement?
3 we are a country of laws we can not make carte Blanche exceptions for entire people groups without damaging our legal system.
4 our ancestors assimilated these people are not all you have to do is go down to a border to see that.
  • While it's impossible to completely assign reasons for irrational acts, I'm pretty sure that you're right. . . welfare would be a good motivator for some people to not move for work. Also, fear of leaving 'home' is another reason.


  • " in the United States about $1.1 billion in federal, state and local government funds are spent annually on health care for undocumented immigrants aged 18 to 64. . . Although the foreign-born make up 45 percent of the Los Angeles County's population, they accounted for just 33 percent of the region's health spending in 2000, according to the study." RAND study


  • Sure we are a country of laws, I'm not suggesting we give carte-blance exceptions. I'm stating that the laws, as written, are useless and wasting tax dollars. I advocate that we repeal immigration laws, beyond requiring a simple background check at the border.


  • Did our ancestors assimilate? How do you define assimilation? How would a family from Bulgaria assimilate or a family from Guatemala?
 

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The process is draconian. . . there is no earthly reason for it to take 1+ years for someone to immigrate, from any country. When my ancestors immigrated from Ireland, the whole process happened at Ellis Island and it didn't take a week, much less a year.

When you think about the reasons why a family would choose to leave their country of origin, generally speaking most of them are either in dire-straits and waiting a year could be the difference between survival or something worse.

The laws are the problem, and just like gun laws. . . they should be changed. I don't recommend ignoring the gun laws, but all the same I don't advocate following them either.
Sure there is we need to control images toon so it benifiets us not the imagrants and letting in a unlimited amount in over saturates the work force and lowers wages.
 

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Sure there is we need to control images toon so it benifiets us not the imagrants and letting in a unlimited amount in over saturates the work force and lowers wages.
Thing is, the market will dictate how many people immigrate into the United States. As jobs dry up, people are going to look for other developed/ developing countries to move into.

Once someone immigrates to the United States, they are us. Therefore, what benefits them, benefits us.

Starting in 2007, immigration (legal or otherwise) started to fall off quite sharply. That is a result of the market dictating how many people choose to move into the United States.

If the free market. . . and freedom in general is so great, why should immigration be treated any differently?
 

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  • While it's impossible to completely assign reasons for irrational acts, I'm pretty sure that you're right. . . welfare would be a good motivator for some people to not move for work. Also, fear of leaving 'home' is another reason.


  • " in the United States about $1.1 billion in federal, state and local government funds are spent annually on health care for undocumented immigrants aged 18 to 64. . . Although the foreign-born make up 45 percent of the Los Angeles County's population, they accounted for just 33 percent of the region's health spending in 2000, according to the study." RAND study


  • Sure we are a country of laws, I'm not suggesting we give carte-blance exceptions. I'm stating that the laws, as written, are useless and wasting tax dollars. I advocate that we repeal immigration laws, beyond requiring a simple background check at the border.


  • Did our ancestors assimilate? How do you define assimilation? How would a family from Bulgaria assimilate or a family from Guatemala?
I'm Irish my ancestors wove them selves into the very fabric of this nation despite the intense prejudice. I live in south Texas now and I see whole communities that make no effort to learn English and our traditions but cling to their old ways and expect to be accommodated even though they have been here for 20 years.
 

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Thing is, the market will dictate how many people immigrate into the United States. As jobs dry up, people are going to look for other developed/ developing countries to move into.

Once someone immigrates to the United States, they are us. Therefore, what benefits them, benefits us.

Starting in 2007, immigration (legal or otherwise) started to fall off quite sharply. That is a result of the market dictating how many people choose to move into the United States.

If the free market. . . and freedom in general is so great, why should immigration be treated any differently?
Not when we have a generous welfare state.
 

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I'm Irish my ancestors wove them selves into the very fabric of this nation despite the intense prejudice. I live in south Texas now and I see whole communities that make no effort to learn English and our traditions but cling to their old ways and expect to be accommodated even though they have been here for 20 years.
Well, we have something in common. . . my family fled Ireland at the start of WWWI.

Anyway, growing up in Massachusetts I'd argue that the Irish there still cling to their old ways (not that many of them have ever been to Ireland at this point). Naturally, Irish immigrants came with an unfair advantage, England did a good job at eliminating their native language before they had the opportunity to come to the United States.

I'd argue that, given the intense prejudice that many immigrants from Latin America/ Southeast Asia face in the United States, they assimilate pretty good. There might be a language barrier with first generation immigrants, but aside from the language barrier what else is there that people aren't doing to assimilate?

Define 'old ways'?
 
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