France: Teacher on the run after criticizing Muhammad

[Kandahar]

Perhaps we have made things worse in the M.E, but I know in my heart, something had to be done, the problem has festered long enough!

You're right, something had to be done. But not this. Democracy is more than just having elections...and in fact, elections in the Middle East at the present time are counterproductive if your long-term goal is democracy.

We should be focusing on trying to expand globalization and human rights in the Middle East. If Arab states open up their economies, the day will come when those societies are knowledge enough of the outside world to reject extremism, and wealthy enough to demand more from their governments in the way of human rights and political pluralism.

 

[Deegan]

You're right, something had to be done. But not this. Democracy is more than just having elections...and in fact, elections in the Middle East at the present time are counterproductive if your long-term goal is democracy.

We should be focusing on trying to expand globalization and human rights in the Middle East. If Arab states open up their economies, the day will come when those societies are knowledge enough of the outside world to reject extremism, and wealthy enough to demand more from their governments in the way of human rights and political pluralism.

That would certainly be a start, but as you know, and have stated in the past, something has to happen other then just a wait and see approach. I know you don't think these people are capable of Democratic state, but why is that? I think the reason is simple, religious clerics being the only leaders, and their views are the only ones espoused. I know you want to take on Iran, but what would be your next step, certainly you don't think your last statement will surfice?

 

[jallman]

He may be a historical person to you but to Muslims he is their most important prophet, you can discuss religion in a historical context in an objective manner without alienating your students.

His students are in a free thinking society where academicians have the right to make assertions based on evidence. The evidence points to Mohammed not being such a nice guy and the Koran clearly states some ideas that are not accepted by the majority of the Western world. If they want to put infidels to the sword in their own country, that's one thing. but when they perpetrate violence against people in free countries over cartoons and scholarly pursuit that is in opposition to them, there is a problem.

Plenty is stated falsely or negatively about Christ, the Christians' holiest figure, but you don't see Christians burning down buildings and forcing teachers into hiding.

 

[Flea]

"I am sure the killers were angered by the pope's speech in which he attacked our prophet," said Ashe Ahmed Ali, one of the many who witnessed the shooting.

I guess it was justified after all then :roll:

 

[Kelzie]

He may be a historical person to you but to Muslims he is their most important prophet, you can discuss religion in a historical context in an objective manner without alienating your students.

And? Hitler's very important to Nazis, should we refrain from slandering him in our history classes? What about Ahmadinejad? Might be some Iranians out there. Stalin? His implementation of communism lead to the death of millions of his own people. Should we not point this out to spare the commies their feelings? The level of regulation you are suggesting would only be recognized once history classes taught about the Care Bears and Rainbow Brite. And you call yourself a libertarian.

I'm saying that similar things were taught about the Jewish religion in Nazi Germany.

Hitler's not a religion. :roll:

Because it's slanderous unsubstantiated libel.

Not if there are facts backing it up. It is a FACT that Muhammed was a "ruthless and looter warlord, a Jew slaughterer and a polygamist". It's backed up by their very own religious book. In fact, the teacher could have added pedophile too.

 

[doughgirl]

Deegan said, “We have to address these radical clerics though, especially when they control the largest country in the M.E! This is the solution to all of our problems, and will eventually free those under that religious rule. Perhaps we have made things worse in the M.E, but I know in my heart, something had to be done, the problem has festered long enough!”

I think they should be addressed as well but many do not think as we do. Which surprises me, because your party I don’t believe thinks we should go into any country and tell them what to do.

Playin devils advocate here…..

You say we should free those under religious rule. Why? What right really does the United States have to go into a country and dictate what they can and cant do religiously? In fact what gives us the right to tell a country they cant arm themselves with nuclear weapons?

You say you know in your heart something had to be done……then you agree with taking Sadam out? Do you support this war?

I think we have done a lot of good over there. We took Sadam out, no more mass graves, shredding machines……..and I think we have the big guys on the run.

Do they think we have done anything good? Our soldiers say yes, our media says a different thing. I think for the most part however they do not want our western ways infiltrating into their society. So….how far do we go?
The second largest religion in the world and you think we can tell them how to interpret their own book?

Kelzie…..the "left" that controls the classrooms across this country would not stand for teaching the truth. They want to hide the truth, push it under a rug.
The ACLU started out and for years has had Communist ties……think we should teach that? NO way in hell….would that make it into any curriculum.

Trajan said, “He may be a historical person to you but to Muslims he is their most important prophet, you can discuss religion in a historical context in an objective manner without alienating your students.”

Truth should be taught. And the truth for some alienates. History the way it really happened should be taught. The Crusades were evil a horrendous blemish on Christianity. Nevertheless it should still be taught. The holocaust happened and should be taught, 9-11 happened, Pearl Harbor, Slavery happened…….the abuses to our Native Americans happened and they all should be taught even thought they might make someone uncomfortable..

Kandahar said, “We should be focusing on trying to expand globalization and human rights in the Middle East. If Arab states open up their economies, the day will come when those societies are knowledge enough of the outside world to reject extremism, and wealthy enough to demand more from their governments in the way of human rights and political pluralism.”

Why? I asked Deegan the same question…….why? Maybe the masses do not want globalization in their countries. To reject extremism for the majority in the M.E would be to turn from Allah and the Koran. There is no separation of church and state in the Koran. The Koran is the church and the state………read the book for yourself.

Deegan said, “ I know you don't think these people are capable of Democratic state, but why is that?”

You need to read the Koran too Deegan. There is no separation. The state is ruled by Allah……..it states this in the Koran.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

His students are in a free thinking society where academicians have the right to make assertions based on evidence. The evidence points to Mohammed not being such a nice guy.

So what? History points out that the Jews killed Jesus it still shouldn't be taught in the classroom.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

And? Hitler's very important to Nazis, should we refrain from slandering him in our history classes? What about Ahmadinejad? Might be some Iranians out there. Stalin? His implementation of communism lead to the death of millions of his own people. Should we not point this out to spare the commies their feelings? The level of regulation you are suggesting would only be recognized once history classes taught about the Care Bears and Rainbow Brite. And you call yourself a libertarian.

This line of argument is pure sophistry you can't compare Nazism Stalin and various other dictators to the worlds 2nd largest religion and their prophet. And I didn't say that this guy isn't free to speak his mind he just isn't free to spread bigoted sentiments in the classroom, he can say whatever the hell he wants just not whereever the hell he wants.

Hitler's not a religion. :roll:

Umm ya and how does that correspond with what I said.

Not if there are facts backing it up. It is a FACT that Muhammed was a "ruthless and looter warlord, a Jew slaughterer and a polygamist". It's backed up by their very own religious book. In fact, the teacher could have added pedophile too.

**** me, this type of bigoted sentiment has no place in the classroom. You can study religion in an objective non-judgemental fashion, have you ever taken a religious studies class? This is not how you teach about religion in a public school.

 

[Captain America]

So what? History points out that the Jews killed Jesus it still shouldn't be taught in the classroom.

I thought that the Romans killed the dude. I remember something about the Roman ruler leaving it to the jews whether Jesus or Barabba's (sp?) should be spared and they chose Barrabas (?) over Jesus but technically it was the Romans who nailed him up, right?

I really don't remember how it went. I also have trouble remembering which of the little piggy's got their house huffed and puffed and blown down too.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

I thought that the Romans killed the dude. I remember something about the Roman ruler leaving it to the jews whether Jesus or Barabba's (sp?) should be spared and they chose Barrabas (?) over Jesus but technically it was the Romans who nailed him up, right?

I really don't remember how it went. I also have trouble remembering which of the little piggy's got their house huffed and puffed and blown down too.

OK teaching that the Jews chose to spare the life of a serial killer over sparing the life of Jesus and then proceeded to mock him as he carried the cross up the hill shouldn't be taught in the classroom either.

 

[Captain America]

OK teaching that the Jews chose to spare the life of a serial killer over sparing the life of Jesus and then proceeded to mock him as he carried the cross up the hill shouldn't be taught in the classroom either.

Well then, neither should Harry Potter then gosh darn it.

If we are gonna censor one fairy tale then we should censor them all. :mrgreen:

 

[jallman]

So what? History points out that the Jews killed Jesus it still shouldn't be taught in the classroom.

WHAT? When did you become such a wuss? History should not be overlooked or under taught due to PC wussy bullshyte. The Jews killed Jesus...big freakin deal. Muhammed was a murderer, polygamist, thief, and quite possibly a pedophile (due to the customs of the time). So what? Phuck some scumbag extremist because he can't handle the truth about the religious leader he chooses to follow. Phuck some PC hippy liberal because they don't want history to be taught for fear of ******* off the already pissed off extremist. Phuck em both...they can both piss off. It would be different if it weren't true.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

WHAT? When did you become such a wuss? History should not be overlooked or under taught due to PC wussy bullshyte. The Jews killed Jesus...big freakin deal.

And that's the kind of thing that has led to the persecution of the Jewish people for hundreds of years it sews hatred and bigotry and is not proper curriculum you can teach religion in an objective non-judgemental way. And I'm not saying that this guy doesn't have the right to say this he should just keep it out of the classroom.

 

[Kelzie]

This line of argument is pure sophistry you can't compare Nazism Stalin and various other dictators to the worlds 2nd largest religion and their prophet. And I didn't say that this guy isn't free to speak his mind he just isn't free to spread bigoted sentiments in the classroom, he can say whatever the hell he wants just not whereever the hell he wants.

What you're saying is pure sophistry too. If you can't counter my point, it stands.

Umm ya and how does that correspond with what I said.

Gawd I hate having to do this. Here's how the conversation flowed:

You going to rant and rave anytime someone calls Hitler "evil"?

Actually this would be akin to teaching the protocals of the elder of Zion in the classroom as the Nazis did in the Reich.

What are you talking about?

I'm saying that similar things were taught about the Jewish religion in Nazi Germany.

Hitler's not a religion.

You up to speed? There's a difference in pointing out the shortcomings of a person and of a religion.

**** me, this type of bigoted sentiment has no place in the classroom. You can study religion in an objective non-judgemental fashion, have you ever taken a religious studies class? This is not how you teach about religion in a public school.

Once again, saying that Muhammed is a "ruthless and looter warlord, a Jew slaughterer and a polygamist" IS objective.

 

[doughgirl]

“So what? History points out that the Jews killed Jesus it still shouldn't be taught in the classroom.”

Why? So you think our history books should be censured..take out everything that might make a group of people upset?
History is history and should be reported and documented.

Not if there are facts backing it up. It is a FACT that Muhammed was a "ruthless and looter warlord, a Jew slaughterer and a polygamist". It's backed up by their very own religious book. In fact, the teacher could have added pedophile too.

“his type of bigoted sentiment has no place in the classroom. You can study religion in an objective non-judgemental fashion, have you ever taken a religious studies class? This is not how you teach about religion in a public school.”

Well it should not be presented in this fashion. Facts are facts however and Muhammed was a warrior who led hundreds of men into very bloody battles. Different sources say different things, but he also had over ten wives, one being a child.

About who killed Christ? He could have saved himself.
The Romans handed him over to the Jews because they just didn’t know what to do with Him. He had done nothing wrong in their eyes. The Jews however carried it out because he claimed to be God and that was a sin. Christ could have saved Himself..but He knew what He came to do.

“If we are gonna censor one fairy tale then we should censor them all.”

So you think Jesus never lived? That the majority of mankind has believed a fairy tale. That the worlds greatest artists and musicians have all been dooped by the whole Jesus thing?
Even secular sources mention His Name.
Wow what one man could do in His thirty three short years on earth.
Somethin isnt it?

 

[Kandahar]

Why? I asked Deegan the same question…….why? Maybe the masses do not want globalization in their countries.

I'm sure they don't, which is one reason democracy in the Middle East would be counterproductive right now. They need to be globalized whether they like it or not, and after they learn about the rest of the world and become wealthy, they'll learn to behave themselves.

To reject extremism for the majority in the M.E would be to turn from Allah and the Koran. There is no separation of church and state in the Koran. The Koran is the church and the state………read the book for yourself.

That doesn't mean they have to be extremist. Islam was not a particularly extreme religion during the time period between the Middle Ages and WWI. Yes, it's extreme today. Yes, it was extreme when it was founded. But there was a lot of time in between when it wasn't. That leads me to believe that the current extremism can be reversed.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

What you're saying is pure sophistry too. If you can't counter my point, it stands.

No it's not and no it doesn't I didn't counter your argument I pointed out that it's a false analogy your comparing speaking badly about Hitler to speaking badly about the worlds second largest religion's prophet.

Gawd I hate having to do this. Here's how the conversation flowed:


You up to speed? There's a difference in pointing out the shortcomings of a person and of a religion.

And god I hate to do this too, I never said Hitler was a religion so where did you get that from?

Once again, saying that Muhammed is a "ruthless and looter warlord, a Jew slaughterer and a polygamist" IS objective.

No it's not objective it is obviously subjective you are not presenting the whole story of Mohammad but rather an entirely biased one. Did this teacher also say that Mohammad considered Jews and Christians to be fellow followers of the book and that they should be offered protection in Islamic nations? Did he teach that Jews were treated far better in Muslim lands than they were in Christian lands? He didn't present the whole story only his own biased perception of it.

 

[doughgirl]

Kandahar said, “I'm sure they don't, which is one reason democracy in the Middle East would be counterproductive right now. They need to be globalized whether they like it or not, and after they learn about the rest of the world and become wealthy, they'll learn to behave themselves."

Again playing devils advocate, what right do we have to say or make them do anything? Those who are against this war in America because they feel we should not show a presence there, would have to agree that we do not have the right to really virtually do anything. That goes for Iran, North Korea.......etc.

You forget one big thing.......the holy books, Koran and Hadiths.....they will never behave themselves while they still revere these to be Allahs commands. so behave themselves, I highly doubt it.

Kandahar said, “That doesn't mean they have to be extremist. Islam was not a particularly extreme religion during the time period between the Middle Ages and WWI. Yes, it's extreme today. Yes, it was extreme when it was founded. But there was a lot of time in between when it wasn't. That leads me to believe that the current extremism can be reversed.”

I don’t think this is so….maybe globally they were quiet but sharaia law has always existed. We are keenly aware of what is going on right now because the Middle East always sems to top the news. It still went on, but America wasn’t involved and frankly couldn’t have cared less what atrocities were going on in the name of Allah. It unfortunately took 9-11 to wake us up.

Trajan said, “No it's not objective it is obviously subjective you are not presenting the whole story of Mohammad but rather an entirely biased one. Did this teacher also say that Mohammad considered Jews and Christians to be fellow followers of the book and that they should be offered protection in Islamic nations? Did he teach that Jews were treated far better in Muslim lands than they were in Christian lands? He didn't present the whole story only his own biased perception of it.”

Kelzie is right in her statements about Muhammed. Like it or not it is fact that Muhammed was the things she states. I’ll even state further that the Koran endorses the militant conversion of people. That is fact. The very concepts of Islam require submission to the will of Allah but also demands that adherents do anything within their power to bring all other people into submission to Islam.

So if you believe anything contrary to Islam, if your a Christian, Jew, Mormon, Athiest, if you believe in Buddah, Scientology, you are an infidel and they want you either to convert to Allah or they believe you should be dead. Simply put that is fact.

What is the ultimate goal of Islam Trajan, the one taught by Muhammed? do you know? It was one of worldwide domination. WORLDWIDE.

I quote Muhammed, “If you find an infidel who will submit and pay alms to Allah, let him go in peace. If not, KILL him.”


You bring up the peace you say Islam shows Jews and Christians? Hogwash

Muhammed stated that “If you find Christians and Jews and you feel compassion towards them, remember Allah sees you and he will hold you accountable for such thoughts.”

The Koran also states, “O, true believers, take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends. They cannot be trusted. They are defiled, filth.”

And your point?

Muslim nations have always vowed, that they will never rest until they have conquered Israel. HELLO? What is the saying they so commonly use? We won’t rest until we have driven every Jew into the sea.
According to Muhammed spoken in the Holy books, the end of the world will not come until the Muslims kill all the Jews in one great battle.

These are facts and documented in the Koran and the Hadiths. Let put it this way……if a school teacher taught the truth about Islam in a classroom, it would be xrated. Parents would be flocking to school to get their kids.