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France puts Israel-Palestine conflict back in focus

TheDemSocialist

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France is hosting foreign ministers from major powers to put Israel-Palestinian peacemaking back on the international agenda and to bring the two sides back to direct talks by the end of the year.With US efforts to broker a deal on a Palestinian state on Israel-occupied land in cold storage for two years, France has lobbied the key players in the peace process to attend the Paris conference.
However, neither Israel nor the Palestinians have been invited.
In his opening speech on Friday, French President Francois Hollande urged Israelis and Palestinians to make a "courageous choice for peace", adding that the solution had to involve the "whole region".


"The discussion on the conditions for peace between Israelis and Palestinians must take into account the entire region," he said.
"The threats and priorities have changed. The changes make it even more urgent to find a solution to the conflict, and this regional upheaval creates new obligations for peace. We must prove it to the international community."
France has grown frustrated over the absence of progress towards a "two-state solution" since the collapse of the last round of talks in April 2014, arguing that letting the status quo prevail is like "waiting for a powder keg to explode".


The gathering of ministers in Paris includes the Middle East Quartet - which comprises the US, Russia, the EU and the UN - as well as the Arab League, the UN Security Council and about 20 countries.
Its initial focus is to reaffirm existing international texts and resolutions that are based on achieving a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip co-existing with Israel.

Read more @: France puts Israel-Palestine conflict back in focus

A start to a new sort of approach to peace talks that we have not seen for some time now. Establish certain countries as "working groups" to the two sides to act as a sort of mediator between Israel and Palestine on certain issues/disagreements each side has. I think this is a good and bold approach to handle the peace talks. It seems that the Palestinian side is open to this strategy while the Israeli side is not, but they have not come out and said they would boycott the talks. It will be interesting to see where this heads. I applaud the French delegation in leading the way in this.
 

shrubnose

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How can they have serious talks on the Israel/Palestine conflict if the Israelis and Palestinians aren't there?

Sounds like a big waste of time to me.
 

washunut

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How can they have serious talks on the Israel/Palestine conflict if the Israelis and Palestinians aren't there?

Sounds like a big waste of time to me.

This appears to be the last chance for Kerry/Obama to overturn what they feel was a colonial nation in the ME.
 

TheDemSocialist

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How can they have serious talks on the Israel/Palestine conflict if the Israelis and Palestinians aren't there?

Sounds like a big waste of time to me.

Its the beginning stages. The Palestinians and Israelis clearly will be invited after the groundwork is laid between the mediator countries.
 

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Read more @: France puts Israel-Palestine conflict back in focus

A start to a new sort of approach to peace talks that we have not seen for some time now. Establish certain countries as "working groups" to the two sides to act as a sort of mediator between Israel and Palestine on certain issues/disagreements each side has. I think this is a good and bold approach to handle the peace talks. It seems that the Palestinian side is open to this strategy while the Israeli side is not, but they have not come out and said they would boycott the talks. It will be interesting to see where this heads. I applaud the French delegation in leading the way in this.

Quite an unsurprisingly dishonest description of reality. Israel's position is and has been for a long while that there cannot be preconditions to negotiations (meaning "we'll only enter negotiations if you first do as we demand") and hence Israel rejects attempts to impose such preconditions such as this French approach. The Palestinian position was the opposite, demanding preconditions to the negotiations and rejecting any possible direct negotiations between the two parties. Unfortunately as long as the Palestinians are thus refusing and rejecting any attempt for direct negotiations there is no way any negotiations are going to take place. Any description of the current status of the peace process that fails to metnion all this is hence clearly a dishonest one.
 

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Read more @: France puts Israel-Palestine conflict back in focus

A start to a new sort of approach to peace talks that we have not seen for some time now. Establish certain countries as "working groups" to the two sides to act as a sort of mediator between Israel and Palestine on certain issues/disagreements each side has. I think this is a good and bold approach to handle the peace talks. It seems that the Palestinian side is open to this strategy while the Israeli side is not, but they have not come out and said they would boycott the talks. It will be interesting to see where this heads. I applaud the French delegation in leading the way in this.

A "gathering of ministers in Paris includes the Middle East Quartet - which comprises the US, Russia, the EU and the UN - as well as the Arab League, the UN Security Council and about 20 countries" should be at least as efficient as similar gatherings as Syria began to fall apart. Of course, Obama does not want to dirty his fingers and image. I am so glad the French are trying.
 

joG

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How can they have serious talks on the Israel/Palestine conflict if the Israelis and Palestinians aren't there?

Sounds like a big waste of time to me.

That is easy. We will draw up plans and map in boarders and tell the dudes to hurry along. Then there will be scolding and if worse comes to worse, we will watch them fight.
 

joG

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Its the beginning stages. The Palestinians and Israelis clearly will be invited after the groundwork is laid between the mediator countries.

If the international community is willing to station some hundred thousand troops that believably guarantee the safety of the populations and speak justice and stay till the situation has stabilized in 50 years? That might work, indeed.
 

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Quite an unsurprisingly dishonest description of reality. Israel's position is and has been for a long while that there cannot be preconditions to negotiations (meaning "we'll only enter negotiations if you first do as we demand") and hence Israel rejects attempts to impose such preconditions such as this French approach. The Palestinian position was the opposite, demanding preconditions to the negotiations and rejecting any possible direct negotiations between the two parties. Unfortunately as long as the Palestinians are thus refusing and rejecting any attempt for direct negotiations there is no way any negotiations are going to take place. Any description of the current status of the peace process that fails to metnion all this is hence clearly a dishonest one.

The preconditions set out by Palestinians are completely reasonable. While settlement continue to expand those expansions take away possible hope and land away from a future Palestinian state. To demand that those are put on freeze is completely reasonable, to say otherwise is ridiculous.
 

joG

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Quite an unsurprisingly dishonest description of reality. Israel's position is and has been for a long while that there cannot be preconditions to negotiations (meaning "we'll only enter negotiations if you first do as we demand") and hence Israel rejects attempts to impose such preconditions such as this French approach. The Palestinian position was the opposite, demanding preconditions to the negotiations and rejecting any possible direct negotiations between the two parties. Unfortunately as long as the Palestinians are thus refusing and rejecting any attempt for direct negotiations there is no way any negotiations are going to take place. Any description of the current status of the peace process that fails to metnion all this is hence clearly a dishonest one.

Oh. It is a perfect stand-off. No question about it. The last thing the two governments can do is to look weak. That would cost them their jobs or even their lives.

If the international community is not willing to guaranty everyone's safety and forces the issue with military power, it seems very optimistic to believe that the dove of peace will land.
 

joG

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The preconditions set out by Palestinians are completely reasonable. While settlement continue to expand those expansions take away possible hope and land away from a future Palestinian state. To demand that those are put on freeze is completely reasonable, to say otherwise is ridiculous.

That is, what I would have expected you to say. I would expect the opposite from your enemies. That is why the real question is, which troops you want to go in and guarantee the safety of the populations.
 

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The preconditions set out by Palestinians are completely reasonable.

According to you, the Palestinians, their subjective supporters and no one else really.

While settlement continue to expand those expansions take away possible hope and land away from a future Palestinian state. To demand that those are put on freeze is completely reasonable, to say otherwise is ridiculous.

On the contrary, making such claims is that which is ridiculous as it's all the more reason to enter negotiations right here right now - if time is of the essence - yet the Palestinians have openly strongly refused to do so for a long while now knowing that they can get away with it.
 

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Read more @: France puts Israel-Palestine conflict back in focus

A start to a new sort of approach to peace talks that we have not seen for some time now. Establish certain countries as "working groups" to the two sides to act as a sort of mediator between Israel and Palestine on certain issues/disagreements each side has. I think this is a good and bold approach to handle the peace talks. It seems that the Palestinian side is open to this strategy while the Israeli side is not, but they have not come out and said they would boycott the talks. It will be interesting to see where this heads. I applaud the French delegation in leading the way in this.

Gosh. I wonder why the Israeli side would be less interested in pretending that France is a trustworthy party.



Old Joke: A man is walking along a French street when he sees a vicious dog attack a child. Quickly he grabs a rock, and attacks the beast, sustaining several wounds, but ultimately succeeding in smashing the animal's skull, saving the boy. A reporter, observing the event, rushes up to get the particulars on the hero, eager to get good copy on the dramatic pictures of the fight that he took.

"Oh sir, you are so brave! We will make all of France aware of the exploits of her son in defending the defenseless, and sacrificing for our children!"

"Well, that's very kind of you, but I'm not actually a Frenchman."

"Oh do not worry - our paper is printed in three languages, and is read all over Europe! All Europeans can know of your heroism!"

"Well, thank you for the offer, but I'm not actually a European."

"Er, well, then, where are you from?"

The next day the headline read: "ISRAELI JEW MURDERS FRENCH PET".
 

shrubnose

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The preconditions set out by Palestinians are completely reasonable. While settlement continue to expand those expansions take away possible hope and land away from a future Palestinian state.
To demand that those are put on freeze is completely reasonable,
to say otherwise is ridiculous.



Come back and tell us all about it after you convince Israel of that.

:lol:

I predict that's not going to happen anytime soon.
 

TheDemSocialist

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That is, what I would have expected you to say. I would expect the opposite from your enemies. That is why the real question is, which troops you want to go in and guarantee the safety of the populations.

Uhhh what? There is not need.

Come back and tell us all about it after you convince Israel of that.

:lol:

I predict that's not going to happen anytime soon.
And they will continue to be in violation of international law and Palestine will continue to call for a freeze. However, Palestine has entered negotiations with Israel without that precondition being met.

According to you, the Palestinians, their subjective supporters and no one else really.
Well saying that the continued settlement expansion are against international law.... I would say the international community would most likely be on the side calling for those settlement to freeze. Hey, and even in past peace talks the US has asked for Israel to extend settlement freezes... .Sooo.... yea....

On the contrary, making such claims is that which is ridiculous as it's all the more reason to enter negotiations right here right now - if time is of the essence - yet the Palestinians have openly strongly refused to do so for a long while now knowing that they can get away with it.
Why enter negotiations when land that would make up a future Palestinian state is being stolen?

Gosh. I wonder why the Israeli side would be less interested in pretending that France is a trustworthy party.
Since France is going through an anti-semitism problem that means the French state endorses such attacks on the Jewish community and cannot have a seat at this peace settlement table?
 

joG

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Uhhh what? There is not need.


And they will continue to be in violation of international law and Palestine will continue to call for a freeze. However, Palestine has entered negotiations with Israel without that precondition being met.


Well saying that the continued settlement expansion are against international law.... I would say the international community would most likely be on the side calling for those settlement to freeze. Hey, and even in past peace talks the US has asked for Israel to extend settlement freezes... .Sooo.... yea....


Why enter negotiations when land that would make up a future Palestinian state is being stolen?


Since France is going through an anti-semitism problem that means the French state endorses such attacks on the Jewish community and cannot have a seat at this peace settlement table?

Then you are not really very interested in securing peace, I guess.
 

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Well saying that the continued settlement expansion are against international law.... I would say the international community would most likely be on the side calling for those settlement to freeze. Hey, and even in past peace talks the US has asked for Israel to extend settlement freezes... .Sooo.... yea....

The US has not called for it to be a precondition to negotiations, and even if it were to do so in the future it wouldn't be justified.

Why enter negotiations when land that would make up a future Palestinian state is being stolen?

Cut the bollocks, if one wants to see the settlements withdrawn from he must negotiate and see that his demands are met, saying 'I will not negotiate unless my demands are met' is saying 'I will not negotiate' - supporting such position is opposing the peace process itself and that's what the Palestinians are doing and have been doing.
 

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Read more @: France puts Israel-Palestine conflict back in focus

A start to a new sort of approach to peace talks that we have not seen for some time now. Establish certain countries as "working groups" to the two sides to act as a sort of mediator between Israel and Palestine on certain issues/disagreements each side has. I think this is a good and bold approach to handle the peace talks. It seems that the Palestinian side is open to this strategy while the Israeli side is not, but they have not come out and said they would boycott the talks. It will be interesting to see where this heads. I applaud the French delegation in leading the way in this.

The key is to start with so many false assumptions and "insights" into the problems that your solution is as disconnected from reality as it can get, then just pick the side you feel is at fault, and blame them when things don't work out like you expect it to.

Has worked really well from the Europeans so far, don't know why they might want to try anything else...
 

CJ 2.0

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Its the beginning stages. The Palestinians and Israelis clearly will be invited after the groundwork is laid between the mediator countries.

Yeah, that seems the best way to ensure that the earlier discussions are reality-based...
 

CJ 2.0

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The preconditions set out by Palestinians are completely reasonable. While settlement continue to expand those expansions take away possible hope and land away from a future Palestinian state. To demand that those are put on freeze is completely reasonable, to say otherwise is ridiculous.

Yes, completely reasonable. Unlike the Jews' having completely unreasonable pre-conditions like recognizing that the Jews are entitled to their own state, the Palestinians stop trying to murder them and the Palestinians tone down their steady stream of jew hating propaganda...

Incidentally, why do Jews need to stop building in their communities? Are you saying that the Palestinians need hope that they will force all the Jews in communities along the seam line out of their homes? Cause that's all this is. Getting those Jews homeless does nothing to advance Palestinian sovereignty or Palestinian national aspirations. it just sticks it to some Jews. That you would pronounce this reasonable is far more ridiculous than just lobbing pre-emptive ad homs against those who have more accurate perspectives on reality.
 
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CJ 2.0

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Gosh. I wonder why the Israeli side would be less interested in pretending that France is a trustworthy party.



Old Joke: A man is walking along a French street when he sees a vicious dog attack a child. Quickly he grabs a rock, and attacks the beast, sustaining several wounds, but ultimately succeeding in smashing the animal's skull, saving the boy. A reporter, observing the event, rushes up to get the particulars on the hero, eager to get good copy on the dramatic pictures of the fight that he took.

"Oh sir, you are so brave! We will make all of France aware of the exploits of her son in defending the defenseless, and sacrificing for our children!"

"Well, that's very kind of you, but I'm not actually a Frenchman."

"Oh do not worry - our paper is printed in three languages, and is read all over Europe! All Europeans can know of your heroism!"

"Well, thank you for the offer, but I'm not actually a European."

"Er, well, then, where are you from?"

The next day the headline read: "ISRAELI JEW MURDERS FRENCH PET".

The Romans in full view of the crowds in the Coliseum were going to feed a Jew to the lions.

They dug a hole five feet deep, put in the Jew standing up and buried him to his neck, so that only his head was above ground.

They then let out the lion that was starved for two days.

The lion with his mouth drooling went straight for the Jew and circled his prey before eating it.

When it got close, the Jew bit it. It yelped and ran away.

From the stands of the Coliseum, the crowd screamed, "Jew, Fight Fair!"
 

CJ 2.0

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Originally Posted by joG
That is, what I would have expected you to say. I would expect the opposite from your enemies. That is why the real question is, which troops you want to go in and guarantee the safety of the populations.

Uhhh what? There is not need.

And there you have it folks.

I think we're done here.
 

calm

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I think that the Palestinians are "Responsible" Negotiators.

The Palestine Papers
"The biggest Yerushalayim"
PA offered to concede almost all of East Jerusalem, an historic concession for which Israel offered nothing in return.
By Gregg Carlstrom
January 23, 2011
"The biggest Yerushalayim" - Al Jazeera English

Secret papers reveal slow death of Middle East peace process
Massive new leak lifts lid on negotiations
PLO offered up key settlements in East Jerusalem
Concessions made on refugees and Holy sites
By Seumas Milne and Ian Black
January 23, 2011
Secret papers reveal slow death of Middle East peace process | World news | The Guardian

'Palestinians agreed to cede nearly all Jewish areas of East Jerusalem'
Newly leaked documents reveal series of concessions made to Israel by PA negotiators; East Jerusalem offer was rejected as it didn't include settlements deeper in West Bank.
By Barak Ravid
January 24, 2011
'Palestinians Agreed to Cede Nearly All Jewish Areas of East Jerusalem' - Haaretz - Israel News Haaretz.com

Meeting Minutes: Borders with Erekat, Qurei and Livni
Palestinians presented their position regarding borders: 1967 borders along with all areas occupied by Israel in the 1967 area, West Bank with No Man's Land and East Jerusalem, the Jordan Valley, Gaza Strip and the Dead Sea. Palestinians also presented maps for land swaps - swaps by the ratio of 1:1 (same size and value).
Meeting Minutes: Borders with Erekat, Qurei and Livni - The Palestine Papers - Aljazeera Investigations

Summary of Ehud Olmert’s “Package” Offer to Mahmoud Abbas - August 31, 2008
Summary on Israel's package offer to the Palestinians, includes detailed maps of land swaps in Israel and Jerusalem. The summary includes offers on territory, Jerusalem, refugees and security. Israel would annex 6.8% of the West Bank, and safe passage between Gaza and West Bank would be under Israeli sovereignty. Sovereignty over the Holy Basin would be delayed to a later stage. On refugees, Israel would acknowledge the suffering of – but not responsibility for – Palestinian refugees. No mention is made of security.
Summary of Ehud Olmert’s “Package� Offer to Mahmoud Abbas - August 31, 2008 - The Palestine Papers - Aljazeera Investigations
 

calm

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This is what Israel is up against ....

UN Supports Sovereignty for Palestine and Slams Israel
Resolution severely criticises the "Occupying Power"
By Stuart Littlewood
January 01, 2016
UN Supports Sovereignty for Palestine and Slams Israel | Dissident Voice

The UN General Assembly approved a draft resolution "Permanent sovereignty of the Palestinian people in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and of the Arab population in the occupied Syrian Golan over their natural resources" (document A/70/480).

It was adopted by 164 to 5 against (Canada, Israel, Marshall Islands, Federated States of Micronesia, United States), with 10 abstentions (Australia, Cameroon, Côte d’Ivoire, Honduras, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, South Sudan, Togo, Tonga, Vanuatu).

-- Reaffirms the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and of the population of the occupied Syrian Golan over their natural resources, including land, water and energy resources;

-- Demands that Israel, the occupying Power, cease the exploitation, damage, cause of loss or depletion and endangerment of the natural resources in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and in the occupied Syrian Golan;

-- Recognizes the right of the Palestinian people to claim restitution as a result of any exploitation, damage, loss or depletion or endangerment of their natural resources resulting from illegal measures taken by Israel, the occupying Power, and Israeli settlers in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and expresses the hope that this issue will be dealt with within the framework of the final status negotiations between the Palestinian and Israeli sides;

-- Stresses that the wall and settlements being constructed by Israel in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including in and around East Jerusalem, are contrary to international law and are seriously depriving the Palestinian people of their natural resources, and calls in this regard for full compliance with the legal obligations affirmed in the 9 July 2004 advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice and in relevant United Nations resolutions, including General Assembly resolution ES-10/15;
 
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CJ 2.0

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All of this is more fairly tale delusion. Palestinians posturing that they would just be reasonable and make peace but first the Jews need to do just one more thing and they will start talking, but in the meantime they will continue to incite and reject all compromise, assured that their mouthpieces in the international community will deflect from the core reality that the Palestinians are not prepared to make peace with the Jews and will not even enter into negotiations to do so.

Back to reality, and we have much more rational people, who are prepared to start from a position of actually understanding and accepting reality as it exists, making proposals which actually have the potential to get us somewhere:

Former Israeli and US officials unveil security-based proposals for two-state solution - Israel News - Jerusalem Post

snips:

The CIS report, entitled “Security First” aims to be a “plan of action to extricate Israel from the security dead end and to improve its security situation and international standing.”

To do so, the group believes certain security measures are necessary including: completing the construction of the West Bank security fence; implementing a strict border control along the fence; continued military control over the West Bank until a permanent agreement is reached; freezing settlement building; restoring law and order in East Jerusalem and tackling illegal infiltration into Israel.

“When you speak right now in Israel about peace, about a two state solution, it’s a kind of illusion,” Founder and Chairman of “Commanders for Israel’s Security” and former commanding general of the IDF Armored Corps Major General (Ret) Amnon Reshef said during a meeting with journalists in New York on Thursday.

“The rationale behind our security first plan is that you don't have to have a partner [for peace] and Israel can and should launch certain measures independently, without considering whether there is or isn’t a partner, until some future negotiation will occur on the permanent solution,” he added.

...

“It should be combined with helping the relevant Palestinians, whether they are in the West Bank, Jerusalem or Gaza, to improve their standards of living, provide them with a kind of hope,” he said, “Then, we will neutralize a lot of their disappointment, their frustration, and they might not enter the roots of terror.”
 
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