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France and UK plan joint military forces

You have one now. HMS Illustrious. It should have its complement of harriers, but not sure, since the news kept saying all harriers were scrapped.

In other words we currently have no way of transporting our aircraft because we either do not have the carrier to do the job or the aircraft to use the carriers that we have already? Well we're screwed.
 
In other words we currently have no way of transporting our aircraft because we either do not have the carrier to do the job or the aircraft to use the carriers that we have already? Well we're screwed.

Britannia rules the waves?
 
Personally, I'd like to see a united EU army. I don't see any problems regarding sovereignty -- as was said before, NATO members cannot make a fully independent, sovereign defense policy anyway. We depend on America, which is mostly a good thing, but it also means none of us in Europe is truly sovereign.

And think about the EU what you will, that it's bloated, lacking democracy and meddles too much into the affairs of the member states -- all right, to some extent, but if there is one field where integration actually makes sense, it's defense and the military, IMHO. I'm not comfortable with some things the EU does, and I believe Europeanization of policies should be limited (I'm a federalist: Leave at the lower level as many fields of policy as possible, certainly everything that has to do with culture, and only transfer to the national or European level only what can really be better done there), but defense is one of the few things I am thoroughly convinced could more efficiently be done on European level.

Most European countries are very small and could not even properly defend themselves. Even the larger European military powers are only medium-sized in international comparison at best, and even they wouldn't be capable of sufficiently defending themselves without the NATO. Europe, small and larger countries alike, are freeriding on US military power, and as reward, we keep annoying the Americans by complaining time and again whenever they actually use their forces. That doesn't strike me as a good status quo, neither good for us, nor for the Americans on the long run.

Only a united Europe could build up a really effective army capable of defending Europe. No European country could do that alone, or even against other Europeans. We'd actually be more sovereign if we had a united European army, because we no longer depend on the Americans (which has many obvious advantages, but certainly disadvantages too). And it would be more fair towards our American friends, if we actually took some more responsibility and allowed them to spend less money for our defense.

Of course, it's a crucial question how such a united EU army should be structured, and how the problem of different interests can be solved. I'm not sure how this should look like in detail, but I think it's doable. Also, it should probably not be compulsory for all EU members, but like the Euro currency, a project started by some members, while others are free to follow later. That would allow those countries which are too uncomfortable with giving up their army, or with European integration in general, to stay out.

For example, I understand the British are very uncomfortable with giving up their army, that has a very long and shining tradition, and with pooling sovereignty in general. Also, they don't like federalism (although I guess they'd appreciate it more, if they saw it working first hand). That must be respected.
 
Personally, I'd like to see a united EU army. I don't see any problems regarding sovereignty -- as was said before, NATO members cannot make a fully independent, sovereign defense policy anyway. We depend on America, which is mostly a good thing, but it also means none of us in Europe is truly sovereign.

And think about the EU what you will, that it's bloated, lacking democracy and meddles too much into the affairs of the member states -- all right, to some extent, but if there is one field where integration actually makes sense, it's defense and the military, IMHO. I'm not comfortable with some things the EU does, and I believe Europeanization of policies should be limited (I'm a federalist: Leave at the lower level as many fields of policy as possible, certainly everything that has to do with culture, and only transfer to the national or European level only what can really be better done there), but defense is one of the few things I am thoroughly convinced could more efficiently be done on European level.

Most European countries are very small and could not even properly defend themselves. Even the larger European military powers are only medium-sized in international comparison at best, and even they wouldn't be capable of sufficiently defending themselves without the NATO. Europe, small and larger countries alike, are freeriding on US military power, and as reward, we keep annoying the Americans by complaining time and again whenever they actually use their forces. That doesn't strike me as a good status quo, neither good for us, nor for the Americans on the long run.

Only a united Europe could build up a really effective army capable of defending Europe. No European country could do that alone, or even against other Europeans. We'd actually be more sovereign if we had a united European army, because we no longer depend on the Americans (which has many obvious advantages, but certainly disadvantages too). And it would be more fair towards our American friends, if we actually took some more responsibility and allowed them to spend less money for our defense.

Of course, it's a crucial question how such a united EU army should be structured, and how the problem of different interests can be solved. I'm not sure how this should look like in detail, but I think it's doable. Also, it should probably not be compulsory for all EU members, but like the Euro currency, a project started by some members, while others are free to follow later. That would allow those countries which are too uncomfortable with giving up their army, or with European integration in general, to stay out.

For example, I understand the British are very uncomfortable with giving up their army, that has a very long and shining tradition, and with pooling sovereignty in general. Also, they don't like federalism (although I guess they'd appreciate it more, if they saw it working first hand). That must be respected.

Given that the larger European nations spend more on their militaries then all but 4 other nations (USA, Russia, China and Japan), only two countries could have any possiblity of trying to attack them ( USA and Russia), the US is currently an ally, and Russia has a hard time trying to pacify chechnya and had to use a significant part of its army to take on Georgia, it would have a difficult if not imposible task in attacking any western european country.


That said a pooled resource military cooperation agreement is not a bad thing. It would allow the EU countries to field weapon systems that a single country would have difficult time affording (like a carrier group)
 
In other words we currently have no way of transporting our aircraft because we either do not have the carrier to do the job or the aircraft to use the carriers that we have already? Well we're screwed.

For about 10 years or so provided current plans are followed through
 
When the two new Aircraft carriers England is building are built (the first one in mid 2010's) they will not have any fighters to fly on them for about 5 years

The naval Harriers are being retired and the F35 naval version will not be delievered for around 5 years after the carriers are built. They are not currently planning on getting naval versions of the Eurofighter. I believe the main push by the British for this agreement was the fact it will not have an operational carrier for a few years while the french will (Rafale naval fighters)

Well, I just noticed these were new changes last month with them retiring all Harriers, effectively meaning they will only have helo carriers for the next decade. However, from what I have read the F-35s are being received around the same time the Queen Elizabeth will enter into service.
 
Well, I just noticed these were new changes last month with them retiring all Harriers, effectively meaning they will only have helo carriers for the next decade. However, from what I have read the F-35s are being received around the same time the Queen Elizabeth will enter into service.

This is what I read


The second carrier, HMS Prince of Wales, will be redesigned to enable it to take the conventional Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) planes currently being built by the US, rather than the more advanced and more expensive variant the previous government had planned to buy.




The first carrier, HMS Queen Elizabeth, will be completed in 2016 but will only carry helicopters before being put into ’extended readiness’, effectively replaced by the Prince of Wales.

With the immediate retiring of existing carrier HMS Ark Royal, the UK will lose the ability to launch fighter jets at sea until 2019. But the government plans to fit a system of catapults and arrestor wires (known as ’cats and traps’) to the Prince of Wales.

‘This will allow our allies to operate from our operational carrier and allow us to buy the carrier version of the JSF, which is more capable, less expensive, has a longer range and carries more weapons,’ said prime minister David Cameron today in parliament
Defence review considers UK aircraft carrier launch systems | News | The Engineer

Read more: Defence review considers UK aircraft carrier launch systems | News | The Engineer
 
Given that the larger European nations spend more on their militaries then all but 4 other nations (USA, Russia, China and Japan), only two countries could have any possiblity of trying to attack them ( USA and Russia), the US is currently an ally, and Russia has a hard time trying to pacify chechnya and had to use a significant part of its army to take on Georgia, it would have a difficult if not imposible task in attacking any western european country.

Maybe, I wouldn't have felt comfortable during the war in Georgia without the US protecting Europe. I probably wouldn't on the long run, we don't know what will be in 15 or 30 years. And maybe military spending alone is not a sufficient yardstick to determine military capacities (of course it is, to some extent, and your point is taken. But think of threats that are not standing foreign armies potentially invading). Just one scenario: Assume Europe was on its own, without the US -- if some "rogue state" detonates a nuke on one of our cities, I don't think we'd have the capacity to sufficiently retaliate, and thus to sufficiently deter, without the US. Maybe we could throw back a nuke (or rather the French and British could, possibly, if the target is not too far away), but that's about all we could do.

That said a pooled resource military cooperation agreement is not a bad thing. It would allow the EU countries to field weapon systems that a single country would have difficult time affording (like a carrier group)

Agreed. It's also financially beneficial. Currently, there are way too many parallel structures, and thus parallel spending, that aren't really necessary.
 
Would you regard the removal of the US army from US government authority as a good thing (both on a federal and state level)?
I dont really see that thaat is what's happening here
 
Has anyone considered the language barrier as a potential problems? Can every French or British soldier in program find a common language to communicate with?
 
Has anyone considered the language barrier as a potential problems? Can every French or British soldier in program find a common language to communicate with?

Apparently, this problem has been solved within NATO already (although it's not a united army, doesn't it have a united command structure?). And for practical reasons, even a united army wouldn't have to mix soldiers who speak different languages, but the respective troup parts could remain homogenous regarding language. It could be done the same way NATO is organized, just with a different command structure, I assume.
 
Has anyone considered the language barrier as a potential problems? Can every French or British soldier in program find a common language to communicate with?

A high percentage of Europeans are bi or tri lingual, so I am sure that the French military could find enough english speakers to serve in the important areas to allow for French and English to be translated between the various commanders allowing for effective communication, if somewhat slowed
 
Has anyone considered the language barrier as a potential problems? Can every French or British soldier in program find a common language to communicate with?

No need for every soldier to be bilingual - the joint expeditionary force only consists of 5000 men from each country. We're not talking about merging armies here.
 
Who is this European army going to protect Europe from? Mostly Europeans have been attacking each other over the centuries. Will the Swiss remain neutral?

Is there any external force interested in taking over Europe using conventional armies and weapons?

I don't think so.
 
It probably is. But why do Europeans need an army? Who do they feel they need protecting against? Any ideas?

Why do the Europeans countries have a military right now? Any Idea's

Why have they had a military for hundreds of years?

Why does any country of any size with very few exceptions (Costa Rica) have a military? Even the Swiss have a military
 
Why do the Europeans countries have a military right now? Any Idea's

Why have they had a military for hundreds of years?

Why does any country of any size with very few exceptions (Costa Rica) have a military? Even the Swiss have a military

I'm in Costa Rica right now and they needed a military recently along the Nicaraguan border.

There was no doubt during the Cold War but I'm curious as to who they might suspect now.
 
A joint European military force may not be such a bad thing, but without backing from a major power it will not work. It will be incapable of being something as powerful as NATO or the Warsaw Pact since the major powers in Europe are only Britain and France who are both downsizing their militaries, which is why this has come about. No Germany since they aren't trusted with an army large enough for them to do anything and can only send soldiers to Afghanistan since there are European and American troops still based in Germany. Until Europe can even form one justice code that works, a single currency strategy that doesn't result in all sorts of fracturing, and can submit to the idea of an EU president with some power, not van Rompuy who is the result of European states being afraid of one Europe, then a joint military force just isn't likely. This agreement between the French and British will be short lived, as soon as there is one disagreement or a change in government in either state it will end.
 
The French and Germans have had a brigade size unit for decades and it has not lead to a single European military force.

Plus the details are a bit iffy still on the overall agreement. The Brits and Frenchies are going to share Air Craft carriers.. but the Brits dont have any planes any more..

Royal Marine here, been on a British aircraft carrier, and, lo-and-behold, there were, in fact, planes.
 
A joint European military force may not be such a bad thing, but without backing from a major power it will not work. It will be incapable of being something as powerful as NATO or the Warsaw Pact since the major powers in Europe are only Britain and France who are both downsizing their militaries, which is why this has come about. No Germany since they aren't trusted with an army large enough for them to do anything and can only send soldiers to Afghanistan since there are European and American troops still based in Germany. Until Europe can even form one justice code that works, a single currency strategy that doesn't result in all sorts of fracturing, and can submit to the idea of an EU president with some power, not van Rompuy who is the result of European states being afraid of one Europe, then a joint military force just isn't likely. This agreement between the French and British will be short lived, as soon as there is one disagreement or a change in government in either state it will end.

History dies hard.
 
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