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France and UK plan joint military forces

Demon of Light

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Britain and France will launch a broad defense partnership on Tuesday that includes setting up a joint force and sharing equipment and nuclear missile research centers, a French government source said.

. . .

France and Britain will agree to set up a joint brigade-sized army contingent with air and sea support, which could assemble as needed to take part in NATO, European Union, United Nations or bilateral operations, the French source said.

British Defense Secretary Liam Fox confirmed the outlines of the agreement.

"We're talking about joint expeditionary forces with our forces in all three services working together to develop common practices, better inter-operability, and to look to see where we get better common equipment," Fox told BBC television.

Source: Reuters

This seems like it could serve as a potential step towards a single European military force. With the two major European military powers effectively operating as a single military force it will create incentives for other countries to join.
 

PeteEU

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Source: Reuters

This seems like it could serve as a potential step towards a single European military force. With the two major European military powers effectively operating as a single military force it will create incentives for other countries to join.

The French and Germans have had a brigade size unit for decades and it has not lead to a single European military force.

Plus the details are a bit iffy still on the overall agreement. The Brits and Frenchies are going to share Air Craft carriers.. but the Brits dont have any planes any more..
 

Demon of Light

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The French and Germans have had a brigade size unit for decades and it has not lead to a single European military force.

That was basically some land forces and nothing else significant. We're talking something far more comprehensive here.

Plus the details are a bit iffy still on the overall agreement. The Brits and Frenchies are going to share Air Craft carriers.. but the Brits dont have any planes any more..

"The Brits don't have any planes"? Do you even know what you are talking about?
 

PeteEU

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That was basically some land forces and nothing else significant. We're talking something far more comprehensive here.

And this will be "something" naval thing and the same as the Franco-German brigade.

"The Brits don't have any planes"? Do you even know what you are talking about?

All Harrier jump-jets have been scraped along with the Ark Royal. So yes, they dont have any jets (yet) for an aircraft carrier. They should get some new Eurofighters that can take off from French air-craft carriers, but not from (as far as I know) the ones the Brits are building.. yes it is a mess.
 

Hoplite

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This seems like it could serve as a potential step towards a single European military force. With the two major European military powers effectively operating as a single military force it will create incentives for other countries to join.
Is this a bad thing?
 

Demon of Light

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And this will be "something" naval thing and the same as the Franco-German brigade.

Did you read the article? It is a lot more than just the navy and that alone would make it more significant.

All Harrier jump-jets have been scraped along with the Ark Royal. So yes, they dont have any jets (yet) for an aircraft carrier. They should get some new Eurofighters that can take off from French air-craft carriers, but not from (as far as I know) the ones the Brits are building.. yes it is a mess.

They have retired their old Harriers, not scrapped, but they still have newer Harriers and ultimately will be getting aircraft carriers fully capable of using fighters with conventional take-off and landing capabilities. In about 10 years they are planning to have large aircraft carriers similar to the French, in fact the two countries are jointly building their next generation of carriers.
 

kaya'08

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Is this a bad thing?

Yes.

Source: Reuters

This seems like it could serve as a potential step towards a single European military force. With the two major European military powers effectively operating as a single military force it will create incentives for other countries to join.

I wouldn't go that far, but it is safe to say that the Conservative party has made cuts that will greately inhibit Englands ability to act as an independant force oversea's and domestically.

PeteEU said:
All Harrier jump-jets have been scraped along with the Ark Royal. So yes, they dont have any jets (yet) for an aircraft carrier. They should get some new Eurofighters that can take off from French air-craft carriers, but not from (as far as I know) the ones the Brits are building.. yes it is a mess.

All Harrier Jets? By the way, how about our royal air force? What do you mean we "have no planes"? Will France be supplying our ownly aircraft carriers? Do we have none, even in reserve?
 

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Source: Reuters

This seems like it could serve as a potential step towards a single European military force. With the two major European military powers effectively operating as a single military force it will create incentives for other countries to join.

A united European military force .... ?

Anyone else suddenly feeling iffy about this joint military plan ... :doh
 

PeteEU

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All Harrier Jets? By the way, how about our royal air force? What do you mean we "have no planes"? Will France be supplying our ownly aircraft carriers? Do we have none, even in reserve?

yes all Harrier jets according to what I have read and seen on the news. And we were discussing air craft carriers and the navy... Royal Navy jets cant land on them. And you have two air craft carriers being built atm, but no planes ordered for them (for now at least).
 

PeteEU

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A united European military force .... ?

Anyone else suddenly feeling iffy about this joint military plan ... :doh

Rather have that, than Yanks and Canadians being stationed here. And technically we already have a "united European military force".. it is called NATO.
 

gunner

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A united European military force .... ?

Anyone else suddenly feeling iffy about this joint military plan ... :doh

I think, as they say, the 'devil will be in the detail'. It looks, at this stage, we will definitely have the ability and authority to pursue our own interests. The idea is we stop doubling up on some of our commitments. Obviously time will tell.
Pete EU you really need to stay away from subjects you know very little about [Military].

Paul
 

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It would be great to see the U.S. out of NATO. This should be on the agenda as one of the first budget cuts congress does.
 

Lord Tammerlain

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When the two new Aircraft carriers England is building are built (the first one in mid 2010's) they will not have any fighters to fly on them for about 5 years

The naval Harriers are being retired and the F35 naval version will not be delievered for around 5 years after the carriers are built. They are not currently planning on getting naval versions of the Eurofighter. I believe the main push by the British for this agreement was the fact it will not have an operational carrier for a few years while the french will (Rafale naval fighters)
 

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Rather have that, than Yanks and Canadians being stationed here. And technically we already have a "united European military force".. it is called NATO.

NATO does not impose restrictions on individual armies to act independantly outside the interests of the organization.

yes all Harrier jets according to what I have read and seen on the news. And we were discussing air craft carriers and the navy... Royal Navy jets cant land on them. And you have two air craft carriers being built atm, but no planes ordered for them (for now at least).

How many air craft carriers do we have in total now? And do we have no jets that can land on them?
 
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Lord Tammerlain

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All Harrier Jets? By the way, how about our royal air force? What do you mean we "have no planes"? Will France be supplying our ownly aircraft carriers? Do we have none, even in reserve?

Not the entire air force, it will have no naval fighters for around 4-7 years once the first new carrier is built. Only when the F35 naval version is delivered in the early 2020's will the UK have effectively an operational aircraft carrier. ( unless it buys some used F18, or F14s from the US)
 

Lord Tammerlain

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NATO does not impose restrictions on individual armies to act independantly outside the interests of the organization.



How many air craft carriers do we have in total now? And do we have no jets that can land on them?

BRITAIN will lose the ability to fly jets from its aircraft carriers for 10 years, Prime Minister David Cameron announced last night.
The move was part of a push to slash the deficit.

The 80-strong fleet of Harriers will be decommissioned immediately, raising questions about Britain's ability to project force in overseas operations.

HMS Ark Royal, one of two ageing carriers from which the Harriers are the only jets that can operate, will also go out of service.

Two new carriers are to be built at a cost of pound stg. 5.2 billion ($3.2bn), but it is highly unlikely both will ever be at sea at the same time.

The defence review will mean no British jets will fly from their decks before 2020, although a last-minute modification means that French and US planes can use them from 2019.
UK scraps carrier aircraft for 10 years | The Australian


This is what happens when your economy is run poorly and is based on bubble economics. The US will see something similar as well
 
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kaya'08

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Not the entire air force, it will have no naval fighters for around 4-7 years once the first new carrier is built. Only when the F35 naval version is delivered in the early 2020's will the UK have effectively an operational aircraft carrier. ( unless it buys some used F18, or F14s from the US)

How many air craft carriers do we currently have?
 

MKULTRABOY

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Rather have that, than Yanks and Canadians being stationed here. And technically we already have a "united European military force".. it is called NATO.

That United Military Force is a front for American hegemony.
 

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How many air craft carriers do we currently have?

You have one now. HMS Illustrious. It should have its complement of harriers, but not sure, since the news kept saying all harriers were scrapped.
 

PeteEU

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NATO does not impose restrictions on individual armies to act independantly outside the interests of the organization.

And why would a unified European military force be any different? Since there is no definition on what it can and can not do, then it is a tad premature to throw out the fear card for something that is far off in the future if ever no?
 

PeteEU

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On a side note.. I just realized that the Con/Lib government retired the newest carrier they had (Ark Royal) and kept the oldest.......................someone must be smoking some strange stuff in London.
 

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Talking about a European Army is putting the carriage before the horse. Who would control a multi-national European Army, and how would it be structured? Once those questions are answered and their answers actually put into effect, there's no reason to fear an EU Army.
 

PeteEU

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Talking about a European Army is putting the carriage before the horse. Who would control a multi-national European Army, and how would it be structured? Once those questions are answered and their answers actually put into effect, there's no reason to fear an EU Army.

First no one said an EU army..

As for control.. who controls NATO? If anything is going to be done, then it will be "NATOlike" organisation, since we dont have a "European State".
 

Wiseone

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First no one said an EU army..

As for control.. who controls NATO? If anything is going to be done, then it will be "NATOlike" organisation, since we dont have a "European State".

A few people were talking about this being a preclude to an European Army. As for a NATO-like organization if an EU Army were to exist, I could see that being a reasonable structure to build an EU Army around. However, until that structure exists there's no need to worry about an EU Army.
 

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"European army" means the integration of all of europes armed forces thus the permanent removal of a key sovereign institution. It says it all in its name, therefore i need not wait for it to ever materialize in the EU parliament for me to dismiss it, unless of course, the term "European army" becomes a misleading name for a European NATO-like organization, but thats all just pointless speculation. A European army is exactly what it says Pete, what more definitions do you need to know about it?
NATO and a hypothetical European army are two very easily distinguishable things.
Odd stance for somebody who does not believe in the formation of a European superstate.
 
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