Framing the issue as Women vs Men

[Goshin]

There's a tendency I've noticed to frame the abortion issue as men oppressing women and taking away their rights. The current leaked "draft" decision seems to have intensified this viewpoint, with a presumption that only male Justices would vote to overturn Roe (ignoring Barrett I suppose).

Without taking a specific position I'd just like to point out that this viewpoint is not really rooted in reality.

According to a 2021 Gallup survey, 43% of women self-identified as "pro-life", vs 52% pro-choice. The numbers among men were very similar, 45/50.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/244709/pro-choice-pro-life-2018-demographic-tables.aspx

There is considerable variation by region. There are states where a majority of women are pro-life.

I'm not pointing this out to attack either side or advocate any particular position. However if you want to debate an issue you should understand it first, and to understand it you need to frame it correctly.

 

[mrjurrs]

There's a tendency I've noticed to frame the abortion issue as men oppressing women and taking away their rights. The current leaked "draft" decision seems to have intensified this viewpoint, with a presumption that only male Justices would vote to overturn Roe (ignoring Barrett I suppose).

Without taking a specific position I'd just like to point out that this viewpoint is not really rooted in reality.

According to a 2021 Gallup survey, 43% of women self-identified as "pro-life", vs 52% pro-choice. The numbers among men were very similar, 45/50.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/244709/pro-choice-pro-life-2018-demographic-tables.aspx

There is considerable variation by region. There are states where a majority of women are pro-life.

I'm not pointing this out to attack either side or advocate any particular position. However if you want to debate an issue you should understand it first, and to understand it you need to frame it correctly.

Who are the people voting for the oppressive laws?


76 white males out of 114 reps. In a state that is 58% Caucasian and I imagine about 50% male.

 

[tres borrachos]

I don't want anyone of any gender to tell me what to do with my body and my uterus.

 

[Goshin]

Way to miss the point. <golf clap>

 

[OrphanSlug]

There's a tendency I've noticed to frame the abortion issue as men oppressing women and taking away their rights. The current leaked "draft" decision seems to have intensified this viewpoint, with a presumption that only male Justices would vote to overturn Roe (ignoring Barrett I suppose).

Without taking a specific position I'd just like to point out that this viewpoint is not really rooted in reality.

According to a 2021 Gallup survey, 43% of women self-identified as "pro-life", vs 52% pro-choice. The numbers among men were very similar, 45/50.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/244709/pro-choice-pro-life-2018-demographic-tables.aspx

There is considerable variation by region. There are states where a majority of women are pro-life.

I'm not pointing this out to attack either side or advocate any particular position. However if you want to debate an issue you should understand it first, and to understand it you need to frame it correctly.

Probably because framing this as men vs. women is the easiest method to take, be it the most lazy and inaccurate as well.

 

[Chomsky]

There's a tendency I've noticed to frame the abortion issue as men oppressing women and taking away their rights. The current leaked "draft" decision seems to have intensified this viewpoint, with a presumption that only male Justices would vote to overturn Roe (ignoring Barrett I suppose).

Without taking a specific position I'd just like to point out that this viewpoint is not really rooted in reality.

According to a 2021 Gallup survey, 43% of women self-identified as "pro-life", vs 52% pro-choice. The numbers among men were very similar, 45/50.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/244709/pro-choice-pro-life-2018-demographic-tables.aspx

There is considerable variation by region. There are states where a majority of women are pro-life.

I'm not pointing this out to attack either side or advocate any particular position. However if you want to debate an issue you should understand it first, and to understand it you need to frame it correctly.

I think yours is a fair point, though I absolutely see why women would be the more vocal opponents of the SCOTUS decisions, as it effects their bodies themselves.

But, I've often tried to inform some here that there indeed are a great many women who are staunchly pro-life. I know many! Just drop in any Catholic Church, on a Sunday, and you'll see plenty.

The problem, and it's a general problem, is it's too easy to focus on our own POV's, frame-of-references, geographical locale, and crowd of associates, forgetting there's a big diverse country out there!

 

[Chomsky]

Probably because framing this as men vs. women is the easiest method to take, be it the most lazy and inaccurate as well.

Well said!

 

[Goshin]

I think yours is a fair point, though I absolutely see why women would be the more vocal opponents of the SCOTUS decisions, as it effects their bodies themselves.

But, I've often tried to inform some here that there indeed are a great many women who are staunchly pro-life. I know many! Just drop in any Catholic Church, on a Sunday, and you'll see plenty.

The problem, and it's a general problem, is it's too easy to focus on our own POV's, frame-of-references, geographical locale, and crowd of associates, forgetting there's a big diverse country out there!

Quite right.

We often forget that America is a HUGE place, with 330 million people.

Regional variations in law, culture and society are nearly as great as the difference between many nations. We are far from a monolithic culture. This is a big part of the problem when anyone tries to make "one size fits all" laws across the entire country.

 

[HikerGuy83]

I'm not pointing this out to attack either side or advocate any particular position. However if you want to debate an issue you should understand it first, and to understand it you need to frame it correctly.

Framing it correctly to some means framing it so their POV prevails. Who cares about the truth ?

To you point, there is certain cross section of women who have always resented the unfair social structure that women have struggled under. Just like those who want reparation for slavery or those who feel white guilt is an obligation, these woman think all men should pay for past sins.

Many are simply man haters (and why not....men are easy to hate.....we hate each other)

And hence.....that is how some of these things are laid out.

 

[EdwinWillers]

Who are the people voting for the oppressive laws?
View attachment 67388922

76 white males out of 114 reps. In a state that is 58% Caucasian and I imagine about 50% male.

Um... wow.

Well first, there are 15 columns in that photo and 8 rows in each, less 1 in the last so 8 x 15 -1 = 119

White Women: 7 (5.88%)
Black Women: 8 (6.72%)
White Men: 75 (63.03%)
Black Men: 29 (24.37%)

Ok - there are the actual stats. And your point is?

 

[American]

Who are the people voting for the oppressive laws?
View attachment 67388922

76 white males out of 114 reps. In a state that is 58% Caucasian and I imagine about 50% male.

You think those "Uncle Toms" are Republicans or Democrats? How about the women? It seems this is mostly a race issue to you.

 

[mrjurrs]

Um... wow.

Well first, there are 15 columns in that photo and 8 rows in each, less 1 in the last so 8 x 15 -1 = 119

White Women: 7 (5.88%)
Black Women: 8 (6.72%)
White Men: 75 (63.03%)
Black Men: 29 (24.37%)

Ok - there are the actual stats. And your point is?

It's actually 118. (14 columns of 8, 1 of 7)

So whites are overrepresented by about 25% and men are overrepresented by almost 30%.

Can you figure out the point on your own?

 

[EdwinWillers]

It's actually 118. (14 columns of 8, 1 of 7)

So whites are overrepresented by about 25% and men are overrepresented by almost 30%.

Can you figure out the point on your own?

Hmm... I think that's what I said, only my math is correct. 14 x 8 = 112. Plus 7 = 119. (which is the same as 8 x 15 - 1)

As to any "over-representation" well... first, they ARE the representatives and second, the sample size is just 119, so a tilt to one side or the other isn't at all unusual.

And if you think about it, blacks actually over represent whites in that group - proving the point that in a sample size that small you're bound to have some tilts this way or that.

So actually, your point... doesn't really have any validity at all. Sorry.

 

[mrjurrs]

You think those "Uncle Toms" are Republicans or Democrats? How about the women? It seems this is mostly a race issue to you.

There are stats on male overrepresentation as well.

 

[ttwtt78640]

There's a tendency I've noticed to frame the abortion issue as men oppressing women and taking away their rights. The current leaked "draft" decision seems to have intensified this viewpoint, with a presumption that only male Justices would vote to overturn Roe (ignoring Barrett I suppose).

Without taking a specific position I'd just like to point out that this viewpoint is not really rooted in reality.

According to a 2021 Gallup survey, 43% of women self-identified as "pro-life", vs 52% pro-choice. The numbers among men were very similar, 45/50.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/244709/pro-choice-pro-life-2018-demographic-tables.aspx

There is considerable variation by region. There are states where a majority of women are pro-life.

I'm not pointing this out to attack either side or advocate any particular position. However if you want to debate an issue you should understand it first, and to understand it you need to frame it correctly.

The fear and freak out seems to be based on the idea that unpopular state abortion laws will be passed over the objections of women. That, of course, ignores the fact that women are a (slight) majority among the electorate.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Probably because framing this as men vs. women is the easiest method to take, be it the most lazy and inaccurate as well.

It would seem that the best nationwide method for resolving both the contraceptive and abortion issue (debate?) would be to pass a Constitutional amendment clearly defining a “right to (reproductive?) privacy”. The nonsense that this “right to privacy” had aways existed, yet was only discovered (by the SCOTUS?) in 1965, is nonsense.

Griswold v. Connecticut - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Hmm... I think that's what I said, only my math is correct. 14 x 8 = 112. Plus 7 = 119. (which is the same as 8 x 15 - 1)

As to any "over-representation" well... first, they ARE the representatives and second, the sample size is just 119, so a tilt to one side or the other isn't at all unusual.

And if you think about it, blacks actually over represent whites in that group - proving the point that in a sample size that small you're bound to have some tilts this way or that.

So actually, your point... doesn't really have any validity at all. Sorry.

When the data indicate that "Group A" is represented in greater proportion than its percentage of the population, and where that over representations (regardless of how you calculate it) is well above being statistically significant, does it really negate the fact of the over representation to say

"Well you are lying about over representation because 'Group A' only constitutes 87.39% of the group while constituting 50% of the general population
rather than the 87.50% that you claim it does."​

or does it just make it easier to delude yourself?

 

[Chomsky]

Quite right.

We often forget that America is a HUGE place, with 330 million people.

Bingo!

I used to think we in the cities are more cognizant of diversity. There is some truth in that, but city-dwellers can be ignorant of the values, ideologies, and day-in lives of rural folk. I see it all the time.

I very much count my blessings, having had the fortuitous birthright to have been raised in a large diverse city, with the world's culture right outside my front door, and having direct immediate access to world-class education, world-class business & employment opportunities, and world-class entertainment.

But, I am also grateful for the access I had to the rural farm areas outside my city, the friends and relatives who had farms we visited, and those early years in my life where I had the opportunity to spend parts of my summers on those farms - some without my parents!

Those farms & fields were a young boy's paradise! Those rural relatives and friends of my family were only too glad to show a young city-boy the ins & outs of farm life! It was a blast! And throughout my life, those rural areas have always drawn me back to visit. And I find the pragmatic farm life, values, and priorities, to be a great 'reset' to my day-in/day-out urban lifestyle.

Regional variations in law, culture and society are nearly as great as the difference between many nations. We are far from a monolithic culture. This is a big part of the problem when anyone tries to make "one size fits all" laws across the entire country.

We are truly blest by this diversity. It is a strength, whether we know it or not. Besides the diversity in skills and abilities, the biggest asset may be our diversity in ideas! This last, may be our greatest blessing!

 

[mrjurrs]

Hmm... I think that's what I said, only my math is correct. 14 x 8 = 112. Plus 7 = 119. (which is the same as 8 x 15 - 1)

As to any "over-representation" well... first, they ARE the representatives and second, the sample size is just 119, so a tilt to one side or the other isn't at all unusual.

And if you think about it, blacks actually over represent whites in that group - proving the point that in a sample size that small you're bound to have some tilts this way or that.

So actually, your point... doesn't really have any validity at all. Sorry.

Incorrect.
White @58% represented by @69%
Black @ 37% represented by @31%

I don't want to believe you are just making shite up, but...

 

[VanceMack]

Its never cut and dried. Not along gender lines and not along racial lines. The opposition and support regarding abortion is approximately equal along gender lines. The vast majority of ALL people oppose unrestricted abortions. 54% of black Americans do not find abortion morally acceptable. 68% do NOT agree that abortion should be legal under any circumstances (ie...without some restrictions).

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Incorrect.
White @58% represented by @69%
Black @ 37% represented by @31%

I don't want to believe you are just making shite up, but...

The numbers that the poster you are replying to have been certified as actually being numbers by The University of Numberology and verified by the faculty in their BS (Statistics) program.

 

[aociswundumho]

There's a tendency I've noticed to frame the abortion issue as men oppressing women and taking away their rights.

Which is strange, considering that the left believes men can become pregnant.

 

[lwf]

There's a tendency I've noticed to frame the abortion issue as men oppressing women and taking away their rights. The current leaked "draft" decision seems to have intensified this viewpoint, with a presumption that only male Justices would vote to overturn Roe (ignoring Barrett I suppose).

Without taking a specific position I'd just like to point out that this viewpoint is not really rooted in reality.

According to a 2021 Gallup survey, 43% of women self-identified as "pro-life", vs 52% pro-choice. The numbers among men were very similar, 45/50.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/244709/pro-choice-pro-life-2018-demographic-tables.aspx

There is considerable variation by region. There are states where a majority of women are pro-life.

I'm not pointing this out to attack either side or advocate any particular position. However if you want to debate an issue you should understand it first, and to understand it you need to frame it correctly.

I think the point is: What business is it of men anyway? Even if 90% of pro-lifers were women, wouldn't there still be 10% of men assuming the authority to tell a woman what she can and can't do with her body?

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Which is strange, considering that the left believes men can become pregnant.

​

 

[CaughtInThe]

people can try to talk their way out of it but a female tsunami is coming. lead by younger women (as older women die daily).