• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Former M16 Head: Iraq war emboldened Osama bin Laden and radicalized Muslims

Cold Highway

Dispenser of Negativity
DP Veteran
Joined
May 30, 2007
Messages
9,595
Reaction score
2,739
Location
Newburgh, New York and World 8: Dark Land
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
"Arguably we gave Osama bin Laden his Iraqi jihad, so that he was able to move into Iraq in a way that he was not before," said Eliza Manningham-Buller, director of MI5 – Britain's rough equivalent of the FBI – from 2002 to 2007.

Ms. Manningham-Buller's statements to Britain's Chilcot Inquiry panel, which is investigating the country's involvement in the Iraq war, are seen as a dramatic criticism of the testimony former Prime Minister Tony Blair gave to the panel earlier this year supporting the toppling of Saddam Hussein.
Once again Ron Paul's views on foreign policy are proven right even though our own leaders refuse to get it.

Iraq war emboldened Osama bin Laden and radicalized Muslims: former MI5 chief - CSMonitor.com
 

justabubba

long standing member
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 22, 2005
Messages
51,592
Reaction score
33,148
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
osama bin forgotten is a terrorist, but he is also a very clever one
notice how he dispatched russia, and crumbled its economy
notice how our economy is also deteriorating while the expansion of intelligence resources (thus tax dollars) have increased by a quantum since 9/11
we have chased, and chased osama, and he has caught us
 

Republic_Of_Public

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 16, 2009
Messages
2,922
Reaction score
343
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Is that a touch of sarcasm there?


He makes an excellent point does Mr. Paul but the likes of Osama only need excuses. And the Iraq invasion was only the latest.
 

bub

R.I.P. Léo
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
9,649
Reaction score
2,173
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent

Laila

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 20, 2008
Messages
10,100
Reaction score
2,990
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Liberal
Been saying that for freaking years.
The war on terror helped the extremists.

I should have been MI5 head. I could have told them in minutes what it took them years to figure out
 

MSgt

Stabler Genius
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
25,798
Reaction score
11,178
Location
Highlands Ranch, CO
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
This is pathetic.

It's the same old story. The war in Iraq made radicals....the war in Afghanistan made radicals.... Danish cartoons made radicals? Not finishing the Gulf War make radicals? Diplomacy with Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Egypt, Israel, and Jordan make radicals? Peace missions in Beirut made radicals? European broken promises during WWI make radicals? European meddling in the region make radicals? The abolishment of the caliphate make radicals? According to Qutb, the American culture is a reason to radicalize. When are you people going to get it? It doesn't matter what we do. Either they radicalize in accordance to their schedule or they radicalize in accordance to ours. 9/11 is in accordance to their schedule. Those who radicalize in the wake of our responses were never far from it in the first place.

In the meantime, the region of oppression and brutality has two nations on a democratic path and Bin Laden's henchmen and followers have managed to slaughter an extreme far more number of fellow Muslims than Westerners. Do we actually think Muslims are blind to this truth? Do we actually think that the vast majority of Muslims (who are not radicalized) believe Bin Laden has been victorious? Only the ignorant seeks to give Bin Laden a sense of victory.
 
Last edited:

MSgt

Stabler Genius
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
25,798
Reaction score
11,178
Location
Highlands Ranch, CO
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
The war in Afghanistan is also what OBL wanted, the 911 attacks were just baiting, he wanted US troops to invade Afghanistan so that he could defeat them just like the Talibans had defeated the Russians during the 80's
The Tali-Ban didn't defeat crap in Afghanistan without U.S. sponsership. Who sponsers the Tali-Ban today against the U.S.? There is no defeat in Afghanistan anymore than there was in Iraq. The difference between the U.S. and the Soviet Union is that the U.S. has more than announced that it is on borrowed time. Europeans ultimately failed everywhere, because colonization and imperialism meant the addition of territory to empires. Much violence came from these nations seeking independence from powers who had every intention of staying forever. The U.S. is only there until we leave.

Victory has already occurred, just like it did in Iraq. It's now a matter of assisting the current democratic government to survive beyond our presence so that future headaches are lessened. Either way, it's up to them.
 
Last edited:

alexa

DP Veteran
Joined
May 14, 2009
Messages
4,684
Reaction score
1,340
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
The Tali-Ban didn't defeat crap in Afghanistan without U.S. sponsership. Who sponsers the Tali-Ban today against the U.S.? There is no defeat in Afghanistan anymore than there was in Iraq. The difference between the U.S. and the Soviet Union is that the U.S. has more than announced that it is on borrowed time. Europeans ultimately failed everywhere, because colonization and imperialism meant the addition of territory to empires. Much violence came from these nations seeking independence from powers who had every intention of staying forever. The U.S. is only there until we leave.

Victory has already occurred, just like it did in Iraq. It's now a matter of assisting the current democratic government to survive beyond our presence so that future headaches are lessened. Either way, it's up to them.
Whatever, you not heard of wikileaks?

Wikileaks cracks NATO's Master Narrative for Afghanistan - WikiLeaks

Wikileaks Afghanistan files: download the key incidents as a spreadsheet | World news | guardian.co.uk
 

MSgt

Stabler Genius
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
25,798
Reaction score
11,178
Location
Highlands Ranch, CO
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I'm active duty. I've heard many things. I also know what deserves less emphasis and what deserves more. Do we really believe that Afghanis are unaware of the war in their midst? "Wikileaks" is merely a revelation to outsiders. Why don't you go ahead and sum up what you think "wikileaks" means to you. To me it's just warfare.
 
Last edited:

alexa

DP Veteran
Joined
May 14, 2009
Messages
4,684
Reaction score
1,340
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I'm active duty. I've heard many things. I also know what deserves less emphasis and what deserves more. Do we really believe that Afghanis are unaware of the war in their midst? "Wikileaks" is merely a revelation to outsiders. Why don't you go ahead and sum up what you think "wikileaks" means to you. To me it's just warfare.
I believe we are too far apart on wavelengths for communication. I could never be a mindset of 'just warfare', being a person who values life.

I have not studied them yet and only briefly heard a couple of things last night. One of them being the extent of the killing of civilians, the reason why I told you previously Nato lost the war. Seems this has been far worse than we were even told. I have also heard that war crimes have been committed by NATO.

Keep your glory of war to yourself and plump up your ego believing you are a winner but war crimes are a disgrace for the people of the States such people act in the name of and an act of inhumanity by the people who do them.
 
Last edited:

Gladiator

Verifier
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
4,382
Reaction score
609
Location
Suburbia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Iraq, under Sadam Hussein, was a state sponsor of terrorsim. Sadam paid $25,000 to each family of a sucide bomber. There was a warehouse discovered in the early days of the 2002 (or so) US-Brittish invasion of Iraq, where there were some 200 suicide bombing vests were stored.

Al Qaida in Iraq has been a nuisance, but has had little effect on the increased security for Israel, resulting from the removal of Saddam Hussein for Iraq.


//
 

alexa

DP Veteran
Joined
May 14, 2009
Messages
4,684
Reaction score
1,340
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Iraq, under Sadam Hussein, was a state sponsor of terrorsim. Sadam paid $25,000 to each family of a sucide bomber. There was a warehouse discovered in the early days of the 2002 (or so) US-Brittish invasion of Iraq, where there were some 200 suicide bombing vests were stored.

Al Qaida in Iraq has been a nuisance, but has had little effect on the increased security for Israel, resulting from the removal of Saddam Hussein for Iraq.


//

Blimey, the conspiracy deepens. No one in the UK tried to tell us we were going to war against Iraq for the sake of Israel.
 

Red_Dave

Libertarian socialist
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 23, 2005
Messages
6,875
Reaction score
1,714
Location
Staffs, England
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Iraq, under Sadam Hussein, was a state sponsor of terrorsim. Sadam paid $25,000 to each family of a sucide bomber. There was a warehouse discovered in the early days of the 2002 (or so) US-Brittish invasion of Iraq, where there were some 200 suicide bombing vests were stored.

Al Qaida in Iraq has been a nuisance, but has had little effect on the increased security for Israel, resulting from the removal of Saddam Hussein for Iraq.


//
Got a link?
 

alexa

DP Veteran
Joined
May 14, 2009
Messages
4,684
Reaction score
1,340
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
But it doesn't seem to cover the suicide vests found in the early days of 2002 a year before the before the Iraq War.
 

jujuman13

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 1, 2006
Messages
4,075
Reaction score
579
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
osama bin forgotten is a terrorist, but he is also a very clever one
notice how he dispatched russia, and crumbled its economy
notice how our economy is also deteriorating while the expansion of intelligence resources (thus tax dollars) have increased by a quantum since 9/11
we have chased, and chased osama, and he has caught us
In actual fact Osma was provided with both up to date armaments and money courtesy of Charles Wilson of the USA.
Without American assistance it is arguable whether Russia would have lost out in Afghanistan.
 

NolaMan

Well-known member
Joined
May 5, 2010
Messages
808
Reaction score
203
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I believe we are too far apart on wavelengths for communication. I could never be a mindset of 'just warfare', being a person who values life.

I have not studied them yet and only briefly heard a couple of things last night. One of them being the extent of the killing of civilians, the reason why I told you previously Nato lost the war. Seems this has been far worse than we were even told. I have also heard that war crimes have been committed by NATO.

Keep your glory of war to yourself and plump up your ego believing you are a winner but war crimes are a disgrace for the people of the States such people act in the name of and an act of inhumanity by the people who do them.
You seem to indicate that the presence of a possible "war crime" means that a war is automatically lose... I would argue this is not the case. For example, during WWII, many people saw the use of the atomic bomb as a "war crime" (even more so today perhaps), but its use did not mean the war was lost.

Also, in regards to Wikileaks, killing of civilians is not a "war crime" automatically.
 

alexa

DP Veteran
Joined
May 14, 2009
Messages
4,684
Reaction score
1,340
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
You seem to indicate that the presence of a possible "war crime" means that a war is automatically lose... I would argue this is not the case. For example, during WWII, many people saw the use of the atomic bomb as a "war crime" (even more so today perhaps), but its use did not mean the war was lost.

Also, in regards to Wikileaks, killing of civilians is not a "war crime" automatically.
No that is not why I believe the war in Afghanistan was lost. I believe it was lost by not allowing, with any asked for help, the Afghan's to remove the Taliban. Afghanistan was ready for that. Now god alone knows what will happen to that country. RAWA says their situation is not really any better to speak of, the government is full of corruption, the ordinary Afghan's do not know whether to jump to the aid of the Taliban or NATO in their desire to stay alive and so on. It is a nightmare which I believe could have been avoided saving the lives of god knows how many Afghan's and NATO soldiers etc.

A spokesperson from Wikileaks very definitely was saying on our tv last night that he believes war crimes have been done and not just by the US I think.
 

MSgt

Stabler Genius
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
25,798
Reaction score
11,178
Location
Highlands Ranch, CO
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I believe we are too far apart on wavelengths for communication. I could never be a mindset of 'just warfare', being a person who values life.
Everybody values life. Really doesn't change a thing does it? The only difference is that I recognize the world I live in.

I have not studied them yet and only briefly heard a couple of things last night. One of them being the extent of the killing of civilians, the reason why I told you previously Nato lost the war. Seems this has been far worse than we were even told. I have also heard that war crimes have been committed by NATO.
So.....Alexa is calling the war? Reminds me of the hundreds to thousands to millions to trillions of civilians killed in Iraq people weren't told about and insisted that it meant failure. And certainly civlians got a play by play casualty report every day of WWII. You want to lose "hearts and minds?" Publicize casualties numbers and imperfect deeds to the masses.

Individiuals in NATO are guilty of war crimes. Individiuals in every nation's military will always be guilty of war crimes. Of course, we just use the term "NATO" to relieve European forces from their guilt because it draws America in. Ever wonder why Court Martials are only featured in the American military for mistakes and bad decisions in war? There's a reason European forces have been relegated far from the combat. Some of them have pulled the same crap they pulled in Somalia.


Keep your glory of war to yourself and plump up your ego believing you are a winner but war crimes are a disgrace for the people of the States such people act in the name of and an act of inhumanity by the people who do them.
Has nothing to do with "glory." But war is war. How dare we win. You want to spare civilians? Give in to your enemies and spare them. Just imagine how many civilians would have been spared if we had only not gone to war against Hitler, Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, fill in the never ending blanks.
 

MSgt

Stabler Genius
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
25,798
Reaction score
11,178
Location
Highlands Ranch, CO
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
And so did the Saudis and many others.. Saddam was hardly the only one paying off the families of suicide bombers.
But he was the only responsibility of the West, for which America and Britain was left holding the bag.
 

MSgt

Stabler Genius
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
25,798
Reaction score
11,178
Location
Highlands Ranch, CO
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
No that is not why I believe the war in Afghanistan was lost. I believe it was lost by not allowing, with any asked for help, the Afghan's to remove the Taliban. Afghanistan was ready for that.
Do you honestly know what is even going on with Afghanistan? The Tali-Ban was removed from power. That's it. The war was won. Afghan's had over a decade to remove the Tali-ban if they wanted to do it. There was more uprising and rebellion in Saddam Hussein's Iraq than there was in Afghanistan. Afghanistan wasn't ready for crap.

Now god alone knows what will happen to that country.
Culture is fate. Removing a dictator from Iraq allowed Muslims the freedom to slaughter each other. The path they are on came only after they had shed enough of their own blood. Now in Afghanistan they flirt with inviting the Tali-ban back to positions of power just to pretend their way to a peaceful path of prosperity. Their decisions are theirsuccesses and failures. What happens to their country is their decision. We aren't there to colonize or add a star to the flag.

RAWA says their situation is not really any better to speak of, the government is full of corruption, the ordinary Afghan's do not know whether to jump to the aid of the Taliban or NATO in their desire to stay alive and so on. It is a nightmare which I believe could have been avoided saving the lives of god knows how many Afghan's and NATO soldiers etc.
The wheat field projects are an attempt to remove the government corruption facilitated by the poppy fields and their local warlords. Afganis are inthe sameboat Iraqis were in when they had the insurgency to please or the U.S. military. Time fixed that. Many things could be avoided. None of it equals defeat. Same defeatism, different war.
 

Republic_Of_Public

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 16, 2009
Messages
2,922
Reaction score
343
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
The wheat field projects are an attempt to remove the government corruption facilitated by the poppy fields and their local warlords.
Two other options are available, both with their pros and cons.

You can napalm the poppy fields, which is cheaper and easier than anything else. Or the poppies could be bought for medicinal purposes by governments and conglomorates. That method doesn't involve a pall of fiery destruction and would be difficult to police, but would be potentially more beneficial and more lucrative than wheat.

(Though in any case, the US military should know how to run a decent occupation, so they can concentrate more of their firepower on the armed and ridiculously rich and armoured drug lords.)


Whatever happens, I hope the wheat fields project won't be another incarnation of the 1962 Ground Nuts Scheme.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom