Forget the Alamo

[d0gbreath]

"pontificating" kind of gave me the heebee-jeebees.

 

[ataraxia]

None of that is false. And you know it because you can’t even explain what about it is false

You can't have your cake and eat it too. You admitted to us this is mythology that you think is important to maintain. It can't be both mythology and true. It's got to be one or the other. My concern is that the distinction between the two is getting increasingly blurred in the conservative mind- or at least that's how they are making it out. We have to be clear which we are talking about.

 

[COTO]

What a major racial hang up. I don't see a problem with it. It's just a term, employed in academic circles even. Words don't upset me like that.

I can't be thrown off an idea because a word I don't understand upsets me. I guess if my identity was based on being white it might be different.

The term doesn't upset me, it indicates to me a particular mindset and philosophy, in the same way that "Zionist", "gun grabber", "intelligent design", or the N- word all suggest particular mindsets and philosophies.

Furthermore, this indication has nothing to do with my race or "my identity"--whatever that's supposed to be.

As for what the term "whiteness" means, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[ecofarm]

The term doesn't upset me, it indicates to me a particular mindset and philosophy, in the same way that "Zionist", "gun grabber", "intelligent design", or the N- word all suggest particular mindsets and philosophies.

Furthermore, this indication has nothing to do with my race or "my identity"--whatever that's supposed to be.

As for what the term "whiteness" means, we'll have to agree to disagree.

That's a stupid misinterpretation. Like I said, you allow words you don't understand to upset you. You take them as an attack on your identity, that being white. That's a you problem. The entire academic world is capable of dealing with the academically accepted term. Universities everywhere are not shutting down because people, like you, do not want to learn.

You can cry about words you don't understand all you want. You can claim your lack of understanding means you're a white victim. And it looks stupid. And it's racist. But no one is stopping you from spewing that moronic trailer park white victim garbage.

Bottom line: your ignorance is reinforcing your victim complex and your hate.

It's no surprise that you try to compare your ignorant bs with someone using the n-word. Of course you downplay using the n-word. That's probably your next thread. And what do you think that tells us.

"I don't understand modern terminology. So that means I can use the n word!" No.

You know there's a word for when people take offense for no reason: snowflaking. You are snowflaking bigtime. Big big time. In your head you're a giant racial victim, and it's really nothing.

That you are playing victim, in regard to race, is a fact. Stop playing racial victim.

 

[j brown's body]

Define major. Cotton was not the backbone of Texas is economy, nor was it ever. Texas is not Alabama or South Carolina, or Mississippi.

Where is the Cotton Bowl played each year?

Seeds of Empire | Andrew J. Torget | University of North Carolina Press

By the late 1810s, a global revolution in cotton had remade the U.S.-Mexico border, bringing wealth and waves of Americans to the Gulf Coast while also devas...

uncpress.org

 

[Lucky 1]

#1 cash crop is major. You got caught making shit up and talking out your ass and now you're tap dancing to try to save face.

He is correct....during that period of the states history....cotton was not at all a big thing economically ....

 

[ClaraD]

More and more of the south's propaganda and myth-creation after the civil war and reconstruction gets exposed. Fascinating book I saw recently:

"Three noted Texan writers combine forces to tell the real story of the Alamo, dispelling the myths, exploring why they had their day for so long, and explaining why the ugly fight about its meaning is now coming to a head. Every nation needs its creation myth, and since Texas was a nation before it was a state, it's no surprise that its myths bite deep. There's no piece of history more important to Texans than the Battle of the Alamo, when Davy Crockett and a band of rebels went down in a blaze of glory fighting for independence from Mexico, losing the battle but setting Texas up to win the war. However, that version of events, as Forget the Alamo definitively shows, owes more to fantasy than reality. Just as the site of the Alamo was left in ruins for decades, its story was forgotten and twisted over time, with the contributions of Tejanos--Texans of Mexican origin, who fought alongside the Anglo rebels--scrubbed from the record, and the origin of the conflict over Mexico's push to abolish slavery papered over. Forget the Alamo provocatively explains the true story of the battle against the backdrop of Texas's struggle for independence, then shows how the sausage of myth got made in the Jim Crow South of the late nineteenth and early twentieth century. As uncomfortable as it may be to hear, celebrating the Alamo has long had an echo of celebrating whiteness. In the past forty-some years, waves of revisionists have come at this topic, and at times have made real progress toward a more nuanced and inclusive story that doesn't alienate anyone. But we are not living in one of those times; the fight over the Alamo's meaning has become more pitched than ever in the past few years, even violent, as Texas's future begins to look more and more different from its past. It's the perfect time for a wise and generous-spirited book that shines the bright light of the truth into a place that's gotten awfully dark."

Forget the Alamo: The True Story of the... book by Bryan Burrough

www.thriftbooks.com

Anyone who doesn't know that the Texan fight for independence from Mexico had to do with slavery didn't study Texas history. Whites pushed forward into Texas and other western areas based on Manifest Destiny.....the US took advantage of the fact that Mexico had just had a very difficult revolution both financially and physically....they lost lots of lives and money and were in a weak position.

 

[ClaraD]

I more or less categorically can't trust any historian pontificating about "whiteness" to render a fair and objective account of any event in North American history.

It's a shame, because it might be a fascinating book. Even so, who can trust a book that ostensibly advertises an anti-white bias in the synopsis? I want the truth, not "a more nuanced and inclusive story" or a screed about "celebrating whiteness".

pontificating about whiteness? The battle for independence in Texas was absolutely about Manifest destiny and slavery. Like I said....people outside of Texas don't know Texas history.
Mexico abolished slavery in 1829....the battle started in 1836.

Most of the American settlers in Mexico were from Southern states, where slavery was still legal. They even brought their enslaved workers with them. Because enslavement was illegal in Mexico, these settlers made their enslaved workers sign agreements giving them the status of indentured servants — essentially enslavement by another name. The Mexican authorities grudgingly went along with it, but the issue occasionally flared up, especially when any of the enslaved people sought freedom by running away. By the 1830s, many settlers were afraid that the Mexicans would take their enslaved workers away, which made them favor independence.

Mexico also had changed their constitution and gave the federal Mexican government more power vs the idea of state's rights first....in 1824...that also outraged these folks that moved to Mexico.

In 1829, the Mexican government became aware of large amounts of legal and illegal immigration and the recommendation by a respected military officer was to cut off further immigration by Anglos. The Mexican government did just that and it led to war.

 

[BlueTex]

pontificating about whiteness? The battle for independence in Texas was absolutely about Manifest destiny and slavery. Like I said....people outside of Texas don't know Texas history.
Mexico abolished slavery in 1829....the battle started in 1836.

Most of the American settlers in Mexico were from Southern states, where slavery was still legal. They even brought their enslaved workers with them. Because enslavement was illegal in Mexico, these settlers made their enslaved workers sign agreements giving them the status of indentured servants — essentially enslavement by another name. The Mexican authorities grudgingly went along with it, but the issue occasionally flared up, especially when any of the enslaved people sought freedom by running away. By the 1830s, many settlers were afraid that the Mexicans would take their enslaved workers away, which made them favor independence.

Mexico also had changed their constitution and gave the federal Mexican government more power vs the idea of state's rights first....in 1824...that also outraged these folks that moved to Mexico.

In 1829, the Mexican government became aware of large amounts of legal and illegal immigration and the recommendation by a respected military officer was to cut off further immigration by Anglos. The Mexican government did just that and it led to war.

You might find this interesting...

The Little-Known Underground Railroad That Ran South to Mexico | HISTORY

Unlike the northern free states, Mexico didn’t agree to return people who had fled slavery.

www.history.com

 

[southwest88]

I saw John Wayne go down fighting... it has to be true!!!

Would the Duke lie to us????

He was an actor. That's why actors were considered lowlifes throughout much of Western Civ. It's why we should still look askance @ people asking us to trust them, when their livelihood depends upon playing make-believe.

 

[notquiteright]

He was an actor. That's why actors were considered lowlifes throughout much of Western Civ. It's why we should still look askance @ people asking us to trust them, when their livelihood depends upon playing make-believe.

Because when his fellow actors signed up during WWII he looked the other way. THEN he became a 'war' hero, fearless cowboy far away from any real danger. Jimmie Stewart is a true hero, he flew bombers over Germany...

 

[armycowboy]

Because when his fellow actors signed up during WWII he looked the other way. THEN he became a 'war' hero, fearless cowboy far away from any real danger. Jimmie Stewart is a true hero, he flew bombers over Germany...

I always thought John Wayne was a fraud as a person and a terrible actor. He always played the same character. I never understood his popularity.

 

[yankintx]

The Alamo is also one of the worst preserved national landmarks in this country. I don't know of anyone who visited it and didn't come away completely disappointed.

People expect too much when it's free entry

 

[armycowboy]

People expect too much when it's free entry

We as a country need to do a better job of preserving our history. Virginia has done a much better job preserving Civil War battlefields. Better, but not perfect.

 

[yankintx]

We as a country need to do a better job of preserving our history. Virginia has done a much better job preserving Civil War battlefields. Better, but not perfect.

I lived in San Antonio for a few years, very close to DT. I would often hit the Alamo if the crowd was light. It needs work for sure. I believe there has been a long running dispute between the sites conservators and the city over its condition.

Being a native of Boston my city does a good job of preserving its history, and Boston has it by the truckload.

 

[southwest88]

I lived in San Antonio for a few years, very close to DT. I would often hit the Alamo if the crowd was light. It needs work for sure. I believe there has been a long running dispute between the sites conservators and the city over its condition.

Being a native of Boston my city does a good job of preserving its history, and Boston has it by the truckload.

Yah, the official TX position on history (see their State Board of Education & its constant fine-tuning of civics, history, ideology, etc. - to better please the economic & political elites there) is that History is bunk.

A quote attributed to St. Ford - although he actually said something more along the lines of History is more or less bunk. But given that everything now is soundbites, it's a fair approximation. (See https://www.thoughtco.com/henry-for...,along those lines many times during his life. for a discussion of the quote.)

 

[southwest88]

Liberals run the education system in this country. Take it up with them.

It's likely true that Liberals are overrepresented in schools & universities in the US (@ the classroom & operational levels - by training, interest & a sense of civic community). But the public schools & universities are also reflections of their electorate - & in TX, FL, MS & some other states - the electorate is either in favor of revising history to not muss the hair of the BBB, Chamber of Commerce & other megacorps - Big Pharma, Big Ag, Big Manufacturing & etc. - because (the biggies say) people might not want to go to those states to work & live if those states actually were to face their history. (The other possibility is that the far-gone Right in those states has taken power & refuses to give it up, no matter what demographic changes may have occurred on the ground meanwhile. It'll be an interesting 20 or 25 years, while the maneuvering room narrows for the hardcore GOP ...)

 

[ALiberalModerate]

More and more of the south's propaganda and myth-creation after the civil war and reconstruction gets exposed. Fascinating book I saw recently:

"Three noted Texan writers combine forces to tell the real story of the Alamo, dispelling the myths, exploring why they had their day for so long, and explaining why the ugly fight about its meaning is now coming to a head. Every nation needs its creation myth, and since Texas was a nation before it was a state, it's no surprise that its myths bite deep. There's no piece of history more important to Texans than the Battle of the Alamo, when Davy Crockett and a band of rebels went down in a blaze of glory fighting for independence from Mexico, losing the battle but setting Texas up to win the war. However, that version of events, as Forget the Alamo definitively shows, owes more to fantasy than reality. Just as the site of the Alamo was left in ruins for decades, its story was forgotten and twisted over time, with the contributions of Tejanos--Texans of Mexican origin, who fought alongside the Anglo rebels--scrubbed from the record, and the origin of the conflict over Mexico's push to abolish slavery papered over. Forget the Alamo provocatively explains the true story of the battle against the backdrop of Texas's struggle for independence, then shows how the sausage of myth got made in the Jim Crow South of the late nineteenth and early twentieth century. As uncomfortable as it may be to hear, celebrating the Alamo has long had an echo of celebrating whiteness. In the past forty-some years, waves of revisionists have come at this topic, and at times have made real progress toward a more nuanced and inclusive story that doesn't alienate anyone. But we are not living in one of those times; the fight over the Alamo's meaning has become more pitched than ever in the past few years, even violent, as Texas's future begins to look more and more different from its past. It's the perfect time for a wise and generous-spirited book that shines the bright light of the truth into a place that's gotten awfully dark."

Forget the Alamo: The True Story of the... book by Bryan Burrough

www.thriftbooks.com

My wife is from Texas, so just to piss her family off, I always refer to it as "The surrender at the Alamo".

 

[COTO]

pontificating about whiteness? The battle for independence in Texas was absolutely about Manifest destiny and slavery. Like I said....people outside of Texas don't know Texas history.
Mexico abolished slavery in 1829....the battle started in 1836.

Most of the American settlers in Mexico were from Southern states, where slavery was still legal. They even brought their enslaved workers with them. Because enslavement was illegal in Mexico, these settlers made their enslaved workers sign agreements giving them the status of indentured servants — essentially enslavement by another name. The Mexican authorities grudgingly went along with it, but the issue occasionally flared up, especially when any of the enslaved people sought freedom by running away. By the 1830s, many settlers were afraid that the Mexicans would take their enslaved workers away, which made them favor independence.

Mexico also had changed their constitution and gave the federal Mexican government more power vs the idea of state's rights first....in 1824...that also outraged these folks that moved to Mexico.

In 1829, the Mexican government became aware of large amounts of legal and illegal immigration and the recommendation by a respected military officer was to cut off further immigration by Anglos. The Mexican government did just that and it led to war.

Why should any of this prevent Texans from celebrating the bravery of the men who fought and died to preserve Texas' place in what ultimately became a great union of states?

One takes a look at the quality of life in Texas and the quality of life in Mexico, and it's impossible not to conclude that America's winning the war was the greatest thing that ever happened for Texans.

 

[Jezcoe]

Looks like an interesting book.

Does it go into how big a piece of shit Jim Bowie was?