Foreign Policy (1 Viewer)

[Topsez]

Many from the left like to throw out statements like never in our history has America been held so lowly by the world community… And, for the life of me I just don’t understand this rationale.

Around the world people aspire to move to America and there isn’t an embassy in any country without a waiting list of wantabees desiring to come to America for education or for a new home country.

If you visit each and every embassy on embassy row in Washington DC how many embassies have Americans on their waiting list?

Let’s examine why our old allies seem reluctant to join us in dealing with Iraq, Iran and N. Korea… Is it because they like Saddam in charge… Iran and N. Korea building nukes… well not exactly… so why no support?

In the 1940’s the world was at war and America joined allies to defeat what nations we decided the enemy of peace to be… Guess what we were on the winning side when it was over… Then what happened? We saved Western Europe… and then as quick as it was saved one of our allies became our and Western Europe’s and America’s enemy as the cold war began… The Iron Curtain went up and imagine this; America wasn’t considered an occupying force in W. Germany but welcomed? We joined the United Nations to hope to insure another World War could be avoided. Then what happened? Were we appreciated by our allies then?

Months after joining the UN N. Korea attacked S. Korea and the US rose to the occasion at the UN becoming the major force to defeat N. Korea and China in the conflict with the trivial aid of Turkey… Were we the good guys then as USSR invaded Afghanistan and influenced Iran and South East Europe as it threatened Western Europe where our troops protected the West? Oh, most certainly! Who has paid for the 37,000 US troops stationed in S. Korea for over sixty years under this UN mandate? Who built the S. Korean Army… the UN with dues from our loving allies? No America had to pick up the tab…

Then what happened… the Iron Curtain fell at the same time Western Europe wallowed in social programs financed by 50% tax since they didn’t need to finance a strong national Army to defend from the likely enemies that would defeat them…. And, it was then they really divorced America with the exception of a few… had nothing to do with Prez Bush… these are gurleymen talking points that America’s foreign policy causes the world to hate us… when the truth is the world envies us.

 

[GarzaUK]

Its like two people who have fought off a mugger, went to a bar for a celebration drink and found out they didn't really have that much in common. The US and Europe needed each other during the cold war, because of the common enemy. The Soviet Union was a far bigger threat than the Islamic terrorists of today.

The US and Europe just have different outlooks in life and can't understand the other's philosophy on things.

Let's put it his way, on the run up to the war you tried to bully us to (against our instincts and principles) to approve of the War on Iraq. When we refused asking for the UN to be given 6 months over the summer months to check it out for WMD's, you refused. You called us cowards and traitors.

So yeah we hold you in less regard than once we did. When I was younger I thought the US was great, and wanted to move there. I'd rather move to Canada or Australia now.

But then again the American people couldn't give a **** what we think.

 

[tecoyah]

But then again the American people couldn't give a **** what we think.

Actually....Many of us care a great deal what you think, and share your concerns. But it takes time to change the course of a behemoth, please be patient with us, we are trying.

 

[Gardener]

Let's put it his way, on the run up to the war you tried to bully us to


But then again the American people couldn't give a **** what we think.

Your bigotry against Americans is showing again.

 

[GarzaUK]

Actually....Many of us care a great deal what you think, and share your concerns. But it takes time to change the course of a behemoth, please be patient with us, we are trying.

My apologies, I didn't mean to be rude or offensive.

 

[GarzaUK]

Your bigotry against Americans is showing again.

I'm not a bigot, I don't dislike Americans. The way the Bush Admin treated Europe in the run up to war was very... unpleasant.

Freedom fries, lol lol, that still cracks me up.

 

[tecoyah]

My apologies, I didn't mean to be rude or offensive.

Honesty.....should never be considered offensive, and it was not.

We should be the ones attempting apology....and you may consider this a small first step.

 

[Gardener]

I'm not a bigot, I don't dislike Americans. The way the Bush Admin treated Europe in the run up to war was very... unpleasant.

Freedom fries, lol lol, that still cracks me up.

the deal is -- you didn't target Bush, you targeted Americans. You said "you" bullied rather than "Bush bullied", and you said Americans don't give a ****.

A great many do.

Especially among all of those who did not vote for Bush.

 

[GarzaUK]

the deal is -- you didn't target Bush, you targeted Americans. You said "you" bullied rather than "Bush bullied", and you said Americans don't give a ****.

A great many do.

Especially among all of those who did not vote for Bush.

Okay I am sorry Gardener. I'll admit my last sentence was a bit rash. I should have said some Americans.

 

[Billo_Really]

GarzaUK, I don't think it was rash at all. I think it was pretty right on the money. Because it is American's that are responsible for George Bush. If we can't clean our own house, then were not that great of a nation.

Topsez, your analogy stops a little short of the truth. In WWII, we were the good guys because we fought Germany and Japan's aggression. Then we fought Korea's aggression. Then we fought China's aggression by proxy. Then we fought the Soviet Union in Afganistan by our proxy. Now, we are the ones doing the aggression. And that is the difference. Stop the hypocrisy. Why is it OK for us to attack someone that did not provoke us and it is wrong for others to do so? A double-standard is immoral, un-ethical and certainly not endowed by the Creator.

That's the difference. By not respecting a nations sovereignty, we have destabilized the entire status quo of the world. And we ARE the biggest threat to peace on earth! Were the only country running around attacking people against all international laws that we promised we would honor when we helped create the United Nations.

 

[Deegan]

American has a track record that no one can deny, and that is of being a champion of freedom, and loyalty to our friends and allies. This too shall pass, not the envy, but the current anger, but we will always be the worlds punching bag, because we do all the worlds hard work. Right or wrong, we will always be under the microscope, because we are the only country that is willing to take action when the world becomes unsettled, and that will never change. I mean you can't be wrong, or right, if you never take on responsiblity beyond your own country, and that's the case for 99 pecent of the countries around the world.:shrug:

 

[Topsez]

GarzaUK, I don't think it was rash at all. I think it was pretty right on the money. Because it is American's that are responsible for George Bush. If we can't clean our own house, then were not that great of a nation.

Topsez, your analogy stops a little short of the truth. In WWII, we were the good guys because we fought Germany and Japan's aggression. Then we fought Korea's aggression. Then we fought China's aggression by proxy. Then we fought the Soviet Union in Afganistan by our proxy. Now, we are the ones doing the aggression. And that is the difference. Stop the hypocrisy. Why is it OK for us to attack someone that did not provoke us and it is wrong for others to do so? A double-standard is immoral, un-ethical and certainly not endowed by the Creator.

That's the difference. By not respecting a nations sovereignty, we have destabilized the entire status quo of the world. And we ARE the biggest threat to peace on earth! Were the only country running around attacking people against all international laws that we promised we would honor when we helped create the United Nations.

Your hate/blame America crap sucks whale crap! First of all if all of the American allies were in support when the UN demanded Saddam comply with the cease fire agreement then there would have been no war... freedom fries is dead on since France was on the take for the oil for food among other actions negative to America.

Which allies supported us when USSR involved itself in Iran and Afghanistan? Likewise, which allies did business with Iran as they took our embassy staff hostage and have aided this enemy ever since considering they killed our USMC peacekeepers in Lebanon through proxy...

I would point out that when the US supported Iraq's war with Iran it was because of the absense of allies and as allies made cool oil deals with Iran...

The non functional UN passed countless resolutions telling Saddam what they should have demanded he do before the first UN force that removed him from Kuwait left Iraq... the matter of disarmament of Iraq should have taken place before the redeployment of the UN force of Desert Storm... Yet, some say... oh, I would have supported America had only they camped out 130,000 soldiers in Kuwait for six more months as Saddam maintained the darkness or absense of sunlight to the UN inspectors... Saddam... oh I need twenty four hours notice for inspections.... I cannot guarantee the safety of the UN inspection team if they conduct unannounced inspections... maybe I could destroy more of my illegal rockets but I have limited trucks to haul them to the distruction facilities... My scientist don't want to go to a neutral third country and I won't force them ... implying they might talk and I'm not letting them out of duress... The UN was doing their job like they did their job in N. Korea... The UN inspection team could care less about whether or not Saddam had nukes since they didn't demand full compliance of unnounced inspections throughout the country... Saddam's decade and a half to live up to what he should have done had got just a little old after 9-11 but not as sour as the support of our allies that fail on each and every occasion to support America when America has given them and the free world so much... Your and other appoligies and hate America make me want to puke in disgust!

American has a track record that no one can deny, and that is of being a champion of freedom, and loyalty to our friends and allies. This too shall pass, not the envy, but the current anger, but we will always be the worlds punching bag, because we do all the worlds hard work. Right or wrong, we will always be under the microscope, because we are the only country that is willing to take action when the world becomes unsettled, and that will never change. I mean you can't be wrong, or right, if you never take on responsiblity beyond your own country, and that's the case for 99 pecent of the countries around the world.:shrug:

Excellent! America's allies are always AWOL and giving aid and comfort to the enemy when they are not on the recieving end of our giving.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by Topsez:
Your hate/blame America crap sucks whale crap! First of all if all of the American allies were in support when the UN demanded Saddam comply with the cease fire agreement then there would have been no war... freedom fries is dead on since France was on the take for the oil for food among other actions negative to America.

Which allies supported us when USSR involved itself in Iran and Afghanistan? Likewise, which allies did business with Iran as they took our embassy staff hostage and have aided this enemy ever since considering they killed our USMC peacekeepers in Lebanon through proxy...

I would point out that when the US supported Iraq's war with Iran it was because of the absense of allies and as allies made cool oil deals with Iran...

The non functional UN passed countless resolutions telling Saddam what they should have demanded he do before the first UN force that removed him from Kuwait left Iraq... the matter of disarmament of Iraq should have taken place before the redeployment of the UN force of Desert Storm... Yet, some say... oh, I would have supported America had only they camped out 130,000 soldiers in Kuwait for six more months as Saddam maintained the darkness or absense of sunlight to the UN inspectors... Saddam... oh I need twenty four hours notice for inspections.... I cannot guarantee the safety of the UN inspection team if they conduct unannounced inspections... maybe I could destroy more of my illegal rockets but I have limited trucks to haul them to the distruction facilities... My scientist don't want to go to a neutral third country and I won't force them ... implying they might talk and I'm not letting them out of duress... The UN was doing their job like they did their job in N. Korea... The UN inspection team could care less about whether or not Saddam had nukes since they didn't demand full compliance of unnounced inspections throughout the country... Saddam's decade and a half to live up to what he should have done had got just a little old after 9-11 but not as sour as the support of our allies that fail on each and every occasion to support America when America has given them and the free world so much... Your and other appoligies and hate America make me want to puke in disgust!

Much like a nuetered dog, you don't get it, do you? What is disgusting is this hypocrisy you embrace. We attacked a nation that was not a threat to anyone. Least alone us. Were 9,000 miles away and they have no navy. They were not a threat, yet we attacked them. Regime change is against international law. We agreed we would honor that when we help start (and co-author the Charters) the United Nations. We bombed them back to the stone-age, we made sure they had 10 years of sanctions so brutal that it killed half their babies. Are you proud to be a baby killer? Which is what anyone is who thinks those sanctions should have been that harsh for that long. Hussein was a tyrant, but its none of our god-damn business what others do in their own sovereign soil. If they attack us, we kick their f.ucking a.s.s. But you don't go starting a fight on lies, greed, arrogance or intolerance.

You want to give blind allegiance to the flag, go ahead. I feel it is my duty as a US citizen to address my grievences when the government strays from the laws of our land. And I f.ucking hate hypocrits! If your for this war, renounce your citizenship. Making up excuses to attack a country like Iraq is not the American way. Is this what you teach your children? That they don't have to be responsible for their own actions if they can find a proper scapegoat. Because that's the example we are setting by thinking we are kings of world and live by a different set of standards. Now, write this down for future reference...

I DO NOT SEE THE EMPEROR'S NEW CLOTHES!

So stop acting like the US has a halo over its head and we can do no wrong!

One last thing, it was Bush who wouldn't guarantee the inspectors safety. They had to get out of the country because Bush was about to attack. At that time, they said Iraq was in full compliance with all UNSC resolutions. What does that mean? It means Bush lied when he said he exhausted all diplomatic means before attacking.

Oh yes, we knew about OFF for years but never said anything. The only reason it is an issue now, is because it is in the Karl Rove playbook.

 

[Topsez]

Much like a nuetered dog, you don't get it, do you? What is disgusting is this hypocrisy you embrace. We attacked a nation that was not a threat to anyone. Least alone us. Were 9,000 miles away and they have no navy. They were not a threat, yet we attacked them. Regime change is against international law. We agreed we would honor that when we help start (and co-author the Charters) the United Nations. We bombed them back to the stone-age, we made sure they had 10 years of sanctions so brutal that it killed half their babies. Are you proud to be a baby killer? Which is what anyone is who thinks those sanctions should have been that harsh for that long. Hussein was a tyrant, but its none of our god-damn business what others do in their own sovereign soil. If they attack us, we kick their f.ucking a.s.s. But you don't go starting a fight on lies, greed, arrogance or intolerance.

You want to give blind allegiance to the flag, go ahead. I feel it is my duty as a US citizen to address my grievences when the government strays from the laws of our land. And I f.ucking hate hypocrits! If your for this war, renounce your citizenship. Making up excuses to attack a country like Iraq is not the American way. Is this what you teach your children? That they don't have to be responsible for their own actions if they can find a proper scapegoat. Because that's the example we are setting by thinking we are kings of world and live by a different set of standards. Now, write this down for future reference...

So stop acting like the US has a halo over its head and we can do no wrong!

One last thing, it was Bush who wouldn't guarantee the inspectors safety. They had to get out of the country because Bush was about to attack. At that time, they said Iraq was in full compliance with all UNSC resolutions. What does that mean? It means Bush lied when he said he exhausted all diplomatic means before attacking.

Oh yes, we knew about OFF for years but never said anything. The only reason it is an issue now, is because it is in the Karl Rove playbook.

You and Duke need to wipe off your red knees and Saddam's juice from your lips and find a new country... We are in double trouble because we also violated the same rules in Afghanistan by your under your logic... America doesn't require the disfunctional UN's blessing to defend itself... and the sanctions were UN sanctions by the way... not US sanctions... The only mistake Prez Bush made was not closing the disfunctional UN!

 

[RightinNYC]

I think everyone expects too much from each other. In an era where people have grown up with the Cold War, the UN, Nato, etc, it became commonplace to consider what your allies wanted the same way you considered what your own interests were. This is not the natural order of things.

Now that the threat of the Cold War is over and the global community is finding itself faced with new challenges and dangers, the way in which nations approach those obstacles is being reevaluated. I think Garza's analogy about the two guys going into a bar for a pint was absolutely spot on.

I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing either. Yes, other countries may respect the US less than they once did. But in a practical sense, the impact of that respect is quite limited. The US has its own interests, as does every country, and those interests must be the first and foremost consideration in our actions.

I would be happy to see the US settle into a state of amicable trade and disinterested diplomacy with the majority of the world, while maintaining friendly relations with key nation-states whose interests are similar to our own. The concept of a "global community" that can act in concert on all things is completely ridiculous. We should involve ourselves in global matters when it suits us, and avoid them when it doesn't.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by Topsez:
You and Duke need to wipe off your red knees and Saddam's juice from your lips and find a new country... We are in double trouble because we also violated the same rules in Afghanistan by your under your logic... America doesn't require the disfunctional UN's blessing to defend itself... and the sanctions were UN sanctions by the way... not US sanctions... The only mistake Prez Bush made was not closing the disfunctional UN!

Nothing at the UN can get done without our approval. We have veto power over everything they decide to do. We make up 1/5 of the UN decision making. Which makes us 1/5 responsible.

There is nothing in the UN Charter that would prevent a country from defending itself. With that being said, what were we defending with regards to Afganistan and Iraq? Neither country attacked us. So there was nothing to defend against. Apparently, you are quite satisfied teaching your children irresponsibilty is not important. Because it is irresponsible to scapegoat someone for the acts of others.

 

[GarzaUK]

I have a question of Topsez regarding one of his choices in his poll.

I can understand why poor nations or oppressed nations may be envious of the US.

But can you venture for me why Western Europe, Japan, or South Korea would be envious of the United States.
I for one I'm not, because some of your domestic policies horrify me. I wouldn't want to live in the United States, unless I was a millionaire (the US rich are given huge tax cuts.) The US is the worse country for crime out of Western Europe, Japan and South Korea.

I'd be more envious of Canada to be brutally honest, if that hurts anyone's pride I'm sorry its just the way I feel.
I like your movies and McDonalds tho.

 

[Goobieman]

Let's put it his way, on the run up to the war you tried to bully us to (against our instincts and principles) to approve of the War on Iraq.

Revisionist drivel.
Europe talked tough against Iraq. When it came time to act, it wussed out.

When we refused asking for the UN to be given 6 months over the summer months to check it out for WMD's, you refused. You called us cowards and traitors.

You talked the talk but you didnt walk the walk. What more do you want?

And lets be clear -- by "us" and "Europe" you mean France and Germany. Many European countries supported the war.

So yeah we hold you in less regard than once we did. When I was younger I thought the US was great, and wanted to move there. I'd rather move to Canada or Australia now.

And we'd rather you go there.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally Posted by GarzaUK
I like your movies and McDonalds tho.

Mickey D's does have pretty good fries!

 

[tecoyah]

And we'd rather you go there.

You do not....in any way, Speak for the American People. And to be honest, if you did that attitude would be shameful to many.

 

[Goobieman]

You do not....in any way, Speak for the American People. And to be honest, if you did that attitude would be shameful to many.

Neither do you.
And neither of you speak for Europeans.

 

[tecoyah]

Neither do you.
And neither of you speak for Europeans.

See....the thing is Goobie, I never claimed to....You Did!!

And in the process added wieght to the first option in this poll.

 

[Goobieman]

See....the thing is Goobie, I never claimed to....You Did!!
And in the process added wieght to the first option in this poll.

So, when are you going to chide Garza for speaking for Europe?
Hmmm?

 

[GarzaUK]

Revisionist drivel.
And lets be clear -- by "us" and "Europe" you mean France and Germany. Many European countries supported the war.

Some European GOVERNMENTS supported the War on Iraq, the majority of every European nation (populus) regardless of its Government opinions were against the war in terror. I'm as certain of this as the sun will rise in the morning.

I never said I spoke for ALL Europeans. But I probably speak for most Europeans.

 

[Goobieman]

Some European GOVERNMENTS supported the War on Iraq, the majority of every European nation (populus) regardless of its Government opinions were against the war in terror.

Sure about that?
If so, why are France and Germany and Canada activie participants in the war?

And your statement is still revisionist drivel.

I'm as certain of this as the sun will rise in the morning.

I'm sure you are.

I never said I spoke for ALL Europeans. But I probably speak for most Europeans.

Well hell -- I never said I spoke for ALL Americans, but I probably spealk for most Americans.
I guess that gets -me- off the hook, eh?