Forced religion in the USA

[Marilyn Monroe]

To certain groups, it does. It is a common form of propaganda, works best with dolts and dupes....

The pledge, the words on our money are all done by rote. They basically are memorized and have no meaning.

If you asked most people to recite the pledge, they could, but it wouldn't have any real meaning to them. Taking God out of these traditional things would have more meaning than leaving them alone.

I think the forefather's didn't want to anger God if their was one, so they put Him on things to bless this country if He did exist. Superstition.

 

[d0gbreath]

Yes we are. Our very Constitution was signed in the year of the Lord Jesus Christ. Not only that, but our inalienable rights come from the Creator.

Yet men can take away all of your inalienable rights, should they feel like it.

 

[digsbe]

This thread started out bashing the impositions that Christians make on other people in pursuit of their cultural dominance. How did you expect this story to end?

Gosh, I'm sorry, Digsbe, that the rest of us aren't willing to lay down and let you dominate us the way you apparently expect to. I guess that makes us disrespectful and hostile.

How is saying "under God" asserting Christian dominance? It's recognition of a higher power and not of a particular religion. America is not a "Christian nation." But Christianity and Christian philosophers greatly influenced the creation of our nation and our laws. People can have intelligent discussions without being hostile or rude.

 

[OKgrannie]

How is saying "under God" asserting Christian dominance? It's recognition of a higher power and not of a particular religion. America is not a "Christian nation." But Christianity and Christian philosophers greatly influenced the creation of our nation and our laws. People can have intelligent discussions without being hostile or rude.

How can you "recognize a higher power" if you don't BELIEVE in "a higher power"? The men who inserted that phrase in the Pledge intended it to mean the "Christian God", don't pretend otherwise. But as Marilyn Monroe said, it is largely rote, and that cheapens the reference to "God" for all those who do believe in a higher power.

 

[digsbe]

How can you "recognize a higher power" if you don't BELIEVE in "a higher power"? The men who inserted that phrase in the Pledge intended it to mean the "Christian God", don't pretend otherwise. But as Marilyn Monroe said, it is largely rote, and that cheapens the reference to "God" for all those who do believe in a higher power.

You recognize that our nation is under a higher power. It's not a personal declaration of faith in a god to say "one nation under God." It's more of a historic thing as our rights come from the Creator according to the Declaration of Independence.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

You recognize that our nation is under a higher power. It's not a personal declaration of faith in a god to say "one nation under God." It's more of a historic thing as our rights come from the Creator according to the Declaration of Independence.

This is you, clinging to the last shards of your cultural supremacy in a war you are already well on the way to losing. It has nothing to do with God, and what God wants. It's about reinforcing your views and forcing other people to pay them lip service.

Is that what your God wants? Fake lip service?

 

[digsbe]

This is you, clinging to the last shards of your cultural supremacy in a war you are already well on the way to losing. It has nothing to do with God, and what God wants. It's about reinforcing your views and forcing other people to pay them lip service.

Is that what your God wants? Fake lip service?

As morals in America degenerate I'm sure things are bound to change. However, saying "under God" is not forcing religion on anyone. It's a historic acknowledgment of our Creators influence in establishing America.

What God wants is either hot or cold people, not people who are lukewarm Christians. I stand up for what I believe, and I have no problem with "under God" in the pledge.

 

[Ikari]

Yet men can take away all of your inalienable rights, should they feel like it.

Certainly can't. They can infringe upon our ability to exercise our rights, but they cannot take them.

 

[MKULTRABOY]

As morals in America degenerate I'm sure things are bound to change. However, saying "under God" is not forcing religion on anyone. It's a historic acknowledgment of our Creators influence in establishing America.

What God wants is either hot or cold people, not people who are lukewarm Christians. I stand up for what I believe, and I have no problem with "under God" in the pledge.

Whether morals are degenerating is your opinion.
I don't care if the creators were christian.
You cant say what God wants, it's likely to get your head blown off in some parts of this planet.
"Under God" was to rile up some feelings against the soviets, nothing more.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

It's a historic acknowledgment of our Creators influence in establishing America.

Actually, it's a rewriting of history to reinforce social insecurity on the part of Christians who sense their control and domination slipping away.

I think it's important to be accurate.

The historical pledge did not include those words. But, nice try. Maybe if you say it 10 more times, it will become more true.

 

[digsbe]

Actually, it's a rewriting of history to reinforce social insecurity on the part of Christians who sense their control and domination slipping away.

Of course, the harder they try to hold on, the more it will continue to slip away.

There is no "Christian control." There is no control over culture by Christians. The typical way of life in America is far far from what Christianity teaches. What do we control? Sexual morals? Nope, 98% of people are sexually immoral according to Christianity. Do we control church attendance? Nope. Any laws? Nope. Any major culture outlets that are Christian? Nope. We have no control, so there is nothing to cling too. What "under God " does is historically acknowledge the Creator. It's not forcing Christianity on anyone and there is no struggle to hold on to something we don't have.

I have a few suggestions of where you can stick your "under God."

I see what you did thar :mrgreen:

 

[Catz Part Deux]

There is no "Christian control." There is no control over culture by Christians.

Tell that to the gay people who can't marry. There are many ATTEMPTS at culture control by Christians. To say otherwise would be patently disengenuous.

The typical way of life in America is far far from what Christianity teaches. What do we control? Sexual morals? Nope, 98% of people are sexually immoral according to Christianity.

Liquor and drug laws slip your mind?

Do we control church attendance? Nope.

I see you've forgotten the blue laws. Blue law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Any major culture outlets that are Christian?

I guess you're not counting the megachurches, TBN, Christian music industry, Christian book industry.

Are you feeling discouraged because Christianity doesn't have overall social control? Don't feel bad, Digsbe. You can still vote those damn activist judges out of office in Iowa.

When was the last time a non-Christian ran for president? Let's be brutally truthful: It would be impossible for an atheist or agnostic to be elected to the presidency, and in many parts of the U.S., to the office of governor or senator or representative.

There's a reason that Charlie Crist never came out of the closet while serving as Florida Governor, and it damn sure isn't because Christians are powerless.

Nope. We have no control, so there is nothing to cling too.

Nice try, but I call b.s.

What "under God " does is historically acknowledge the Creator. It's not forcing Christianity on anyone and there is no struggle to hold on to something we don't have.

Please stop using the term historically, there is nothing historic about putting this phrase into the HISTORICAL pledge.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

I see what you did thar :mrgreen:

Yeah, I thought better of it after about 10 seconds.

 

[OKgrannie]

You recognize that our nation is under a higher power. It's not a personal declaration of faith in a god to say "one nation under God." It's more of a historic thing as our rights come from the Creator according to the Declaration of Independence.

If one doesn't believe in a higher power, one can't recognize that. It's true that saying "one nation under God" is not a personal declaration of faith since that statement is dictated by law and law cannot dictate faith. The Declaration of Independence is a wonderful document but it was written by men and simply states what they believed, or more likely what they believed was necessary to sell a war to the common people, not necessarily what is true.

 

[marduc]

You recognize that our nation is under a higher power. It's not a personal declaration of faith in a god to say "one nation under God." It's more of a historic thing as our rights come from the Creator according to the Declaration of Independence.

I believe my creator to be my mothers uterus, with assists from her ovaries, and my fathers testes.

 

[Paschendale]

The phrase is "under god" not "under a creator." The phrase in the pledge refers quite directly to the Christian god. Let me ask the question this way. To someone who believes, you'll profess your belief anyway, without being prompted to in a pledge. But for those who do not, they are being compelled to state a belief they do not hold. So removing it does not harm believers, and only serves to ease problems for non-believers. Where is the downside?

Also, I would object to the accuracy of the statement that the US is "under god." We most certainly do not hold many of the rules attributed to the western god as law. Even the ten commandments; only a few of them are laws in this country. We are not actually a nation under god. We do not derive our laws from any divine source. Therefore the statement is false.

 

[Arch Enemy]

Certainly can't. They can infringe upon our ability to exercise our rights, but they cannot take them.

What's the point of a right if you can't exercise it?

 

[marduc]

What's the point of a right if you can't exercise it?

In that circumstance the right becomes a force to band people together to overthrow or remove that which is denying them or infringing upon that right. That alone is a rather large point if you ask me.

 

[mike2810]

William Rehnquist had a good summary of the intent of "under God", one that I agree with.

From a legal perspective, do the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance improperly endorse religion? - Under God in the Pledge - ProCon.org
William Rehnquist, JD, Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, in his 2004 concurrence in Elk Grove Unified School District v. Newdow, stated:
"The phrase 'under God' in the Pledge seems, as a historical matter, to sum up the attitude of the Nation's leaders, and to manifest itself in many of our public observances. Examples of patriotic invocations of God and official acknowledgments of religion's role in our Nation's history abound...

The motto 'In God We Trust' first appeared on the country's coins during the Civil War...

Our Court Marshal's opening proclamation concludes with the words 'God save the United States and this honorable Court'...

All of these events strongly suggest that our national culture allows public recognition of our Nation's religious history and character...

The phrase 'under God' is in no sense a prayer, nor an endorsement of any religion."

IMO, within the next 10-15 years we will most likely see any reference to "God" removed from the pledge, currency and use in court to be sworn in. Not sure the US is heading in the correct direction as a culture.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Why is it that some non-spiritual people assume that "God" endorses a particular *religion*
Every *religion* centers around a belief in *a* or *many* gods - only one set of beliefs, however, does not: atheism.
So all the *many* beliefs are suppose to kowtow to the *one* - thus making atheism superior?


Maybe they should start writing it G_d and respect the Jewish?

 

[Catz Part Deux]

IMO, within the next 10-15 years we will most likely see any reference to "God" removed from the pledge, currency and use in court to be sworn in. Not sure the US is heading in the correct direction as a culture.

I like it, personally. So sorry that your faith will have to come from God & you, without the efforts of government to bolster it.

 

[mike2810]

I like it, personally. So sorry that your faith will have to come from God & you, without the efforts of government to bolster it.

The govt. has done nothing to bolster my faith. My faith is as you state between me and "God".
So, got to ask, if lets say "under God" is removed from the pledge and it goes back to its orginal form. If someone states "under God", during the pledge, what should happen It is a personal belief. Or the opposite can be asked, if someone leaves the phrase out now, what should happen? IMO, nothing in either case.

 

[OKgrannie]

Why is it that some non-spiritual people assume that "God" endorses a particular *religion*
Every *religion* centers around a belief in *a* or *many* gods - only one set of beliefs, however, does not: atheism.
So all the *many* beliefs are suppose to kowtow to the *one* - thus making atheism superior?


Maybe they should start writing it G_d and respect the Jewish?

Some religions worship a Goddess, some worship many Gods and so referring to one God as THE God is offensive. Why are these other religions inferior to the few religions that worship one God? The answer is that it is not a matter of superiority or inferiority, it is a matter of respect for other religions that they have equal status before the law. Having equal status before the law guarantees religious liberty for individuals.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Some religions worship a Goddess, some worship many Gods and so referring to one God as THE God is offensive. Why are these other religions inferior to the few religions that worship one God? The answer is that it is not a matter of superiority or inferiority, it is a matter of respect for other religions that they have equal status before the law. Having equal status before the law guarantees religious liberty for individuals.

I've always considered it a vague reference to an overall superior being or beings - genderless. Just like the term 'mankind'
Sure - many don't think of it that way (past and present) - but that's always been my consideration and thus why it doesn't bother me.

 

[ricksfolly]

The govt. has done nothing to bolster my faith. My faith is as you state between me and "God".
So, got to ask, if lets say "under God" is removed from the pledge and it goes back to its orginal form. If someone states "under God", during the pledge, what should happen It is a personal belief. Or the opposite can be asked, if someone leaves the phrase out now, what should happen? IMO, nothing in either case.

Two issues here, being brainwashed into believing their is a God, and being brainwashed into respecting the piece of cloth known as the US flag, which really has no meaning to kids except during a war and certain holidays.

ricksfolly