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Forced religion in the USA

ricksfolly

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When I was a kid in school we were all forced to pledge allegiance to the flag every morning before classes, and that was all right because we were at war.

The same words were said every morning until June 14 (Flag Day), 1954 When President Dwight D. Eisenhower added the words "under God".

As he signed it into law, he said:

"In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource in peace and war."

...from that time on, millions of helpless kids were influenced by their teachers to acknowledge there is a God, over and over again, every morning, until it was finally burned into their innocent little brains.

ricksfolly
 

Goshin

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I notice you aren't concerned about the poor widdle children being forced to pledge allegiance to the flag and the Republic, and having patriotism burned into their widdle brains until they think American is, like, good or something.
(/irony)

Honestly, you think reciting the Pledge is some kind of evangelism? Frankly if that's the worst thing you've got to worry about, you've got no worries.
 

Korimyr the Rat

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I notice you aren't concerned about the poor widdle children being forced to pledge allegiance to the flag and the Republic, and having patriotism burned into their widdle brains until they think American is, like, good or something. (/irony)

Children in the State schools should obviously be indoctrinated to love the State. Otherwise, what's the purpose? :kitty:
 

MKULTRABOY

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I notice you aren't concerned about the poor widdle children being forced to pledge allegiance to the flag and the Republic, and having patriotism burned into their widdle brains until they think American is, like, good or something.
(/irony)

Theres realism and the considerations of the nation state. Then theres beliefs in deities. One of them is no longer necessary for our country.
 

digsbe

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Saying the pledge is not a profession of faith in God. It is an acknowledging that our Country and Constitution is a nation under God.
 

Dogger807

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Saying the pledge is not a profession of faith in God. It is an acknowledging that our Country and Constitution is a nation under God.


I think you have inadvertently put your thumb on exactly what's wrong with the pledge.

We are not a nation under god. This is the viewpoint of a growing number of the population. Because the pledge has been mutilated to include this phrase it is no longer all inclusive and is, in fact, becoming quiet divisive.
 

samsmart

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When I was a kid in school we were all forced to pledge allegiance to the flag every morning before classes, and that was all right because we were at war.

The same words were said every morning until June 14 (Flag Day), 1954 When President Dwight D. Eisenhower added the words "under God".

As he signed it into law, he said:

"In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource in peace and war."

...from that time on, millions of helpless kids were influenced by their teachers to acknowledge there is a God, over and over again, every morning, until it was finally burned into their innocent little brains.

Saying the pledge is not a profession of faith in God. It is an acknowledging that our Country and Constitution is a nation under God.

I think that Eisenhower signing that law had less to do with affirming that our country and the Constitution is a nation under God and more of a Take That at the enforced atheism of communist Soviet Russia, who we were engaged in a cold war with at the time.
 

digsbe

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I think you have inadvertently put your thumb on exactly what's wrong with the pledge.

We are not a nation under god. This is the viewpoint of a growing number of the population. Because the pledge has been mutilated to include this phrase it is no longer all inclusive and is, in fact, becoming quiet divisive.

Yes we are. Our very Constitution was signed in the year of the Lord Jesus Christ. Not only that, but our inalienable rights come from the Creator.
 

Catz Part Deux

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Saying the pledge is not a profession of faith in God. It is an acknowledging that our Country and Constitution is a nation under God.

This is a lovely dance that you're doing here. Is it called the shuffle & dodge? :D
 

American

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Theres realism and the considerations of the nation state. Then theres beliefs in deities. One of them is no longer necessary for our country.

That's your opinion.
 

Catz Part Deux

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Yes we are. Our very Constitution was signed in the year of the Lord Jesus Christ. Not only that, but our inalienable rights come from the Creator.

I note that you are clinging to this because it is the ONLY reference to your particular god in the entire document....the common method of presenting a date, in that era. Nice try, but I see what you're doing here.
 

digsbe

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I note that you are clinging to this because it is the ONLY reference to your particular god in the entire document....the common method of presenting a date, in that era. Nice try, but I see what you're doing here.

Wrong. You have your rights because the founding fathers believed the Creator gave them to you. They could have chosen another dating phrase, but they still chose to acknowledge Jesus as their Lord.
 

Catz Part Deux

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Wrong. You have your rights because the founding fathers believed the Creator gave them to you. They could have chosen another dating phrase, but they still chose to acknowledge Jesus as their Lord.

Wrong. I have rights because the founding fathers shed blood to create them. And, your attempt to spin the date as an homage to Jesus Christ is just pathetic, but then, we've been down this road before, you and I, haven't we? And you're still clinging to what feeble straws you still have, argumentationally.
 

digsbe

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Wrong. I have rights because the founding fathers shed blood to create them. And, your attempt to spin the date as an homage to Jesus Christ is just pathetic, but then, we've been down this road before, you and I, haven't we? And you're still clinging to what feeble straws you still have, argumentationally.

Nope. In the founding fathers' minds, your rights came from the Creator and they are inalienable rights. The fact is that the Constitution was written mostly by Christians and a deist. Another more common dating method was to date important documents in the year of the king. The fact is that the Constitution upholds Jesus as Lord in the dating when they could easily have dating it in another way. Who knows? Maybe it was in direct opposition to the King by formally upholding Jesus as Lord and not the king of England? If the founding fathers wanted to create a government devoid of religious thought and influence they wouldn't have put it in there.
 

MaggieD

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Wrong. You have your rights because the founding fathers believed the Creator gave them to you. They could have chosen another dating phrase, but they still chose to acknowledge Jesus as their Lord.

First, will we every stop with founding fathers??? GADZ. Second, where did they acknowledge Jesus as their Lord? The only reference at all is in the date -- and that was common useage at the time, not a religious reference. Third, the founding fathers (yuck) believed we had our rights....as long as we were white. Oh, and men.
 

Aunt Spiker

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When I was a kid in school we were all forced to pledge allegiance to the flag every morning before classes, and that was all right because we were at war.

The same words were said every morning until June 14 (Flag Day), 1954 When President Dwight D. Eisenhower added the words "under God".

As he signed it into law, he said:

"In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource in peace and war."

...from that time on, millions of helpless kids were influenced by their teachers to acknowledge there is a God, over and over again, every morning, until it was finally burned into their innocent little brains.

ricksfolly

I was forced to believe there was a God - and a Jesus - and that Jesus walked on water and God divided the Red Sea.
But Superman isn't real ???
All before Pre-K!

Obviously it didn't really stick - no matter how many angles they tried to slam me into it.

Most people I know are spiritual and believe in some type of a God. I actually haven't met but a handful of people who aren't spiritual.

But I don't cringe over it with my kids - I've left it up to them to decide what they believe. I've been quite blunt and open about my beliefs with them - I answer any questions and an honest when they ask me 'why don't we go to church like Grandma?'
 
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digsbe

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First, will we every stop with founding fathers??? GADZ. Second, where did they acknowledge Jesus as their Lord? The only reference at all is in the date -- and that was common useage at the time, not a religious reference. Third, the founding fathers (yuck) believed we had our rights....as long as we were white. Oh, and men.

done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names,

Not all the founding fathers believed in slavery, but that doesn't discredit the fact that they believed inalienably rights come from God and not from men.
 

MaggieD

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Not all the founding fathers believed in slavery, but that doesn't discredit the fact that they believed inalienably rights come from God and not from men.

So you quote the date phrase back at me? I know that. It was common useage at the time. James Madison, known as the Father of the Constitution," believed inexorably in separation of church and state. In fact, he actively spoke against it. While the Declaration of Independence talks about inalienable rights bestowed by our Creator, and Nature's God this isn't a reference to Christianity.
 

Catz Part Deux

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Nope. In the founding fathers' minds, your rights came from the Creator and they are inalienable rights. The fact is that the Constitution was written mostly by Christians and a deist. Another more common dating method was to date important documents in the year of the king. The fact is that the Constitution upholds Jesus as Lord in the dating when they could easily have dating it in another way. Who knows? Maybe it was in direct opposition to the King by formally upholding Jesus as Lord and not the king of England? If the founding fathers wanted to create a government devoid of religious thought and influence they wouldn't have put it in there.

Frequent repetition doesn't make it true.
 

digsbe

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So you quote the date phrase back at me? I know that. It was common useage at the time. James Madison, known as the Father of the Constitution," believed inexorably in separation of church and state. In fact, he actively spoke against it. While the Declaration of Independence talks about inalienable rights bestowed by our Creator, and Nature's God this isn't a reference to Christianity.

It is a reference to God though. The dating in the Constitution is a reference to Jesus. The pledge acknowledges God, not necessarily the Christian religion. Also, the US Capitol used to house church services, of which many of the founding fathers attended. Their vision of separation of church and state was to prevent a theocracy or state church limiting the freedom of religion like they had seen in Europe.
 

Catz Part Deux

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Not all the founding fathers believed in slavery, but that doesn't discredit the fact that they believed inalienably rights come from nature's God and not from men.

Fixed it for you. They specifically didn't name YHWH.
 

Catz Part Deux

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It is a reference to God though. The dating in the Constitution is a reference to Jesus. The pledge acknowledges God, not necessarily the Christian religion. Also, the US Capitol used to house church services, of which many of the founding fathers attended. Their vision of separation of church and state was to prevent a theocracy or state church limiting the freedom of religion like they had seen in Europe.

The pledge didn't acknowledge God until 1952. Why is this, do you think? Why don't you think the original author felt acknowledgement of God was necessary?
 
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