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For those that think Iran has a right to nuclear energy

sasho said:
@ all anti-nuclear Iran!!!!

So basicly , you guys dont trust Iran but you expect us arabs to trust Israel with nuclear warheads and ICBM's?I mean ok, damm!The leaders in Iran right now are a bunch dumb *** loonies, but crap, Israeli leaders are not loonies?
So the question is this,why can't Iran have Nuclear weapons while Israel can?
why should Iran sign the non-uranium prolifiration treaty and stick with it while Israel hasnt signed nothing of that sort?
And if someone sais that if Israel didnt have nukes, arab countries would have wiped it off the map entirely.
Well,Israel has the US backing her up, and i dont think the US will let anyone Nuke Israel,so why should israel have Nukes?

P.S.: my english sux, sorry!and i hope to get some decent replies,not one of those " UR CRAZY " replies! thanks :2wave:


Your English is certainly better than my Arabic, so you shouldn't worry. A friend taught mer a few words in Farsi many years ago, but I have no memory of those, either.

As far as Iran is concerned, though, I might point out that at least two Iranian leaders have now openly speculated on nuking Israel. Have Israeli leaders been saying the same things when it comes to Iran, or various Arab countries?

THat is the big difference to me.
 
I believe a few words need to be said about what the term 'non-proliferation' means with regard to nuclear weapons and the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT).

Let it also be understood that Iran signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) on the first day it was opened for signature on July 1, 1968, and was an Original Party when it entered into force in 1970.


Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) in simple terms

•1 - For nations which did manufacture, possess, or explode any nuclear-weapons device prior to January 1, 1967. Re: United States, Britain, China, France, Russia, Israel.

1a) They shall not increase their nuclear arsenal.
1b) They shall not transfer nuclear weapons.
1c) They shall not transfer nuclear-weapons components.
1d) They shall not transfer nuclear-weapons technology.
1e) They shall not transfer/export nuclear weapons-grade fissile material.

•2 - For the NPT signatory nations which did not manufacture, possess, or explode any nuclear-weapons device prior to January 1, 1967.

2a) Thay shall not import nuclear weapons.
2b) They shall not import nuclear-weapons technology.
2c) They shall not manufacture, possess, or explode nuclear devices.
2d) They shall not suborn the nuclear-fuel cycle.
2e) They shall not enrich nuclear fuel to weapons-grade fissile material.
2f) They shall submit their nuclear energy programs to the IAEA.
2g) They agree to allow the IAEA to monitor all nuclear energy programs.
2h) The IAEA is empowered to forward NPT violations to the UNSC for enforcement.

In a nutshell, that is how nuclear non-proliferation applies to the two distinct classes of nations under the NPT. Thus far, Iran is considered by the IAEA to be in NPT violation of clauses 2b, 2d, 2e, and 2g... and it will report Iran's non-compliance to the UN Security Council sometime in February, 2006.

Additionally, nuclear non-proliferation should not be confused with 'nuclear disarmament'... which is a different issue altogether.
 
ashurbanipal said:
Do you think that repeating yourself is a form of making an argument? I posted points in refutation of the implied position; you just restated the position without bothering so much as to change up the wording a little....
you asked why shouldnt Iran be allowed to have them, and I responded. I repeated the REASON they shouldnt be allowed to have them.

your reason for allowing them to have them is....."well everyone else has them"

yeah, thats a good reason!
 
There is a difference between targetting civillians and targetting military and criminal elements that hide within their civillian populations.

amen to that.

take it a step further......how can you conclude that civillians are "innocent" when they KNOWINGLY allow known terrorists to live among them?
 
Your English is certainly better than my Arabic, so you shouldn't worry. A friend taught mer a few words in Farsi many years ago, but I have no memory of those, either.

As far as Iran is concerned, though, I might point out that at least two Iranian leaders have now openly speculated on nuking Israel. Have Israeli leaders been saying the same things when it comes to Iran, or various Arab countries?
THat is the big difference to me.

Thats cool that u like learnin different languages from different cultures,i respect that :) and Farsi is not Arabic lol,there are 2 different languages!
Anyway,lets get to the subject.Yes the Iranian leaders has threatened the existance of the zionist state (Israel) but israel has made threats to lebanon and Syria aswell,( im lebaneese btw),Israel was and still giving warnings to Lebanon and Syria of Airborn strikes against both countries,so why not go nuclear :) no one can stop Israel anyway.As you know Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 in an operation called " peace for gaza" i presume. At that point Resolution 425 was issued and it said said :"It calls for withdrawal of Israeli forces", but Israel stayed there and no one ever said ANYTHING about it.And althought the resolution was active at that point, no one moved to do anything about it.Instead 1000 US marines landed in Beirut airport in 1983 to help out the israeli invasion and when a HizbAllah militia hit them with a truck full of explosives,they called us terrorists.You will tell me that proof of US helping israel does not exist.On the contrary;US said that in 1983 the lebaneese goverment invited US to stop the war in lebanon,but at that point we did not have a goverment,we were in a civil war.There was a huge political gap in the lebaneese goverment wich was filled by Syrian officials;and trust me Syria did NOT invite US.
So my question still remains,why does the US expect other countries like Lebanon and Syria to trust Israel with nukes?
Second of all,who's a bigger threat!Iran or North Korea.I think North korea has made public threats to the US on going nuclear.so why not attack North korea? why picking on Iran?

P.S:1- link to resolution 425
 
ProudAmerican said:
amen to that.

take it a step further......how can you conclude that civillians are "innocent" when they KNOWINGLY allow known terrorists to live among them?


They are no longer innocent. There is an estimated 12 to 150 million Islamic Radicals roaming the earth. (Trust me) A very small fraction of this number are the actual terrorists. They swim and hide amongst this sea of Radicalism. It is also a known fact that terrorist hide amongst their own kind. They are harboured and fed by their supporters. Therefore, when a house gets bombed to take out a terrorist, anyone around him is not so "innocent."

This is a war on attrition. One that, no matter what we do, they will never give up on. The question isn't whether or not a war on attrition is bad....we are in one and despite our pretending that all is OK throughout the 90's, they have been determined to be at war with us. In the mean time, all of the vast majority of the moderate Muslims aren't lifting a finger to take back their religion from their zealots. Instead they claim a "victim" status against America as groups like Al-Queda tell them this is a war against Islam. The moderate Muslims have a duty and a responsibility to their religion and they are dropping the ball and quietly condemning these "martyrs."
 
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sasho said:
Thats cool that u like learnin different languages from different cultures,i respect that :) and Farsi is not Arabic lol,there are 2 different languages!
Anyway,lets get to the subject.Yes the Iranian leaders has threatened the existance of the zionist state (Israel) but israel has made threats to lebanon and Syria aswell,( im lebaneese btw),Israel was and still giving warnings to Lebanon and Syria of Airborn strikes against both countries,so why not go nuclear :) no one can stop Israel anyway.As you know Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 in an operation called " peace for gaza" i presume. At that point Resolution 425 was issued and it said said :"It calls for withdrawal of Israeli forces", but Israel stayed there and no one ever said ANYTHING about it.And althought the resolution was active at that point, no one moved to do anything about it.Instead 1000 US marines landed in Beirut airport in 1983 to help out the israeli invasion and when a HizbAllah militia hit them with a truck full of explosives,they called us terrorists.You will tell me that proof of US helping israel does not exist.On the contrary;US said that in 1983 the lebaneese goverment invited US to stop the war in lebanon,but at that point we did not have a goverment,we were in a civil war.There was a huge political gap in the lebaneese goverment wich was filled by Syrian officials;and trust me Syria did NOT invite US.
So my question still remains,why does the US expect other countries like Lebanon and Syria to trust Israel with nukes?
Second of all,who's a bigger threat!Iran or North Korea.I think North korea has made public threats to the US on going nuclear.so why not attack North korea? why picking on Iran?

P.S:1- link to resolution 425


Let's be fair here. Going back to 1982 doesn't cut it. The State of Israel was proclaimed by England and admitted to the UN in 1949. The U.S. recognized Israel within hours. The VERY NEXT day, Muslims from Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq invaded. It's been going on ever since. The question to ask is why did Israel attack into Lebanon? Do you honestly believe that it was because those darn Jews were just out to kill Muslims? It doesn't quite paint the complete picture by bringing up that Israel has threatened to do what it must and leaving out that it has done so after the Muslim world decided to make war.

NK is a bigger threat from launch, which makes them a non threat. They are not suicidal. Iran would never launch. That would be foolish. However, they would give a nuke to an extremist group and claim complete ignorance after detonation inside Israel, America, and now European nations since the cartoon temper tantrums being thrown everywhere. This makes Iran more dangerous.
 
sasho said:
Yes the Iranian leaders has threatened the existance of the zionist state (Israel) but israel has made threats to lebanon and Syria as well,( im lebaneese btw), Israel was and still giving warnings to Lebanon and Syria of Airborn strikes against both countries, so why not go nuclear
Any warnings Israel gives to either Lebanon or Syria are quite similar to those it gives the Palestinians... control your terrorists or we shall do it for you.

sasho said:
As you know Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 in an operation called " peace for gaza" i presume. At that point Resolution 425 was issued and it said said :"It calls for withdrawal of Israeli forces", but Israel stayed there and no one ever said ANYTHING about it.And althought the resolution was active at that point, no one moved to do anything about it.
What exactly persuaded Israel to initiate a military expedition into Lebanon? Could it be that Israel grew weary of the heavy and constant PLO and Hizb'allah rocket attacks on northern Israel emanating from Lebanon? As was stated previously, if you can't or won't control your terrorist element, then external force will be applied.

UN Resolution 425 did call for an Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon, but it did not (conveniently?) contain any mechanism or provision for ending the rocket and mortar attacks on Israel. When this threat was eliminated, Israel did indeed withdraw all military forces from Lebanon. Don't blame Israel because Lebanon and the UN are impotent.

sasho said:
Instead 1000 US marines landed in Beirut airport in 1983 to help out the israeli invasion and when a HizbAllah militia hit them with a truck full of explosives, they called us terrorists.You will tell me that proof of US helping israel does not exist. On the contrary;US said that in 1983 the lebaneese goverment invited US to stop the war in lebanon,but at that point we did not have a goverment,we were in a civil war.
Israel did not ask for US military assistence in Lebanon (that's laughable) and the US didn't offer such. In simple terms, the Beirut mission of the US military was to act as a buffer between the waring factions until diplomacy could peacefully resolve Lebanon's internal conflicts. True to form, Hizb'allah eschewed peace and resorted to a terrorist attack against the US military.

sasho said:
There was a huge political gap in the lebaneese goverment wich was filled by Syrian officials;and trust me Syria did NOT invite US.
Yes, the same Syrian military and intelligence officials who for all practical purposes... annexed Lebanon and considered it a reservation where they could safey train, arm, and mobilize Hizb'allah and other terrorist organizations and then claim official innocence and ignorance. The Syrian government is currently under UN investigation for the murder of a former Lebaneese Prime Minister. Why it took Lebanon over twenty years to finally expell the Syrians from its territory (a military occupation), I shall perhaps never understand.

sasho said:
So my question still remains, why does the US expect other countries like Lebanon and Syria to trust Israel with nukes?
Primarily because: (1) Israel has possessed nuclear weapons prior to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) of 1967 (2) Israel has never used nuclear weapons despite numerous Arab invasions (3) Israel has never once threatened to use nuclear weapons. These reasons have historical validity, and exist in direct juxtaposition with the Iranian situation.

sasho said:
second of all,who's a bigger threat! Iran or North Korea. I think North korea has made public threats to the US on going nuclear. so why not attack North korea? why picking on Iran?
Can you provide any links to proclamation's by Kim Jong-il that North Korea will destroy the United States or any other nation? No? I didn't think so.

For unknown reasons, you seem to think that the United States and Israel are 'picking' on Iran. On the contrary, it is the IAEA of the United Nations that has found Iran to be in non-compliance with the NPT... to which Iran was a willing and original signatory. Additionally, it has been the European Union and Russia that have negotiated with Iran on this issue... to no avail. The IAEA will place Iran's NPT violations befire the United Nations Security Council later this month.

Aren't you a bit of a hypocrite also? You loudly embrace UN Resolution 425 of 1983 concerning Israel, yet you see fit to excuse Iran's current violations of the United Nations Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. Do you abide by all UN Resolutions and Treaties, or only those that apply to Israel and thus better suit your agenda?
 
sasho said:
Thats cool that u like learnin different languages from different cultures,i respect that :) and Farsi is not Arabic lol,there are 2 different languages!
Anyway,lets get to the subject.Yes the Iranian leaders has threatened the existance of the zionist state (Israel) but israel has made threats to lebanon and Syria aswell,( im lebaneese btw),Israel was and still giving warnings to Lebanon and Syria of Airborn strikes against both countries,so why not go nuclear :) no one can stop Israel anyway.As you know Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 in an operation called " peace for gaza" i presume. At that point Resolution 425 was issued and it said said :"It calls for withdrawal of Israeli forces", but Israel stayed there and no one ever said ANYTHING about it.And althought the resolution was active at that point, no one moved to do anything about it.Instead 1000 US marines landed in Beirut airport in 1983 to help out the israeli invasion and when a HizbAllah militia hit them with a truck full of explosives,they called us terrorists.You will tell me that proof of US helping israel does not exist.On the contrary;US said that in 1983 the lebaneese goverment invited US to stop the war in lebanon,but at that point we did not have a goverment,we were in a civil war.There was a huge political gap in the lebaneese goverment wich was filled by Syrian officials;and trust me Syria did NOT invite US.
So my question still remains,why does the US expect other countries like Lebanon and Syria to trust Israel with nukes?
Second of all,who's a bigger threat!Iran or North Korea.I think North korea has made public threats to the US on going nuclear.so why not attack North korea? why picking on Iran?

P.S:1- link to resolution 425


I know the difference between Arabic and Farsi. I brought up the latter because the subject matter here is Iran rather than an Arabic country. You had expressed the fact that English is your second language and I was trying to compliment you on the fact that you wrote as well as you did. In return you laugh at me by portraying me as not understanding the difference between Arabic and Farsi.

If you wish to discuss the issue, discuss the issue, but if you need to portray me as foolish in order to gain some sort of argumentative leverage, please think again.

In one sentence here, you mention Hisb Allah, and then use the pronoun "us". Are you indicating here that you are a member of Hisb Allah? If so, the pertinant U.N. resolution you might wish to view is resolution 1559.

Israel will not nuke you, though, because nukes are not an effective means to combat militias that engage in guerilla tactics.
 
I know the difference between Arabic and Farsi. I brought up the latter because the subject matter here is Iran rather than an Arabic country. You had expressed the fact that English is your second language and I was trying to compliment you on the fact that you wrote as well as you did. In return you laugh at me by portraying me as not understanding the difference between Arabic and Farsi.

If you wish to discuss the issue, discuss the issue, but if you need to portray me as foolish in order to gain some sort of argumentative leverage, please think again.

In one sentence here, you mention Hisb Allah, and then use the pronoun "us". Are you indicating here that you are a member of Hisb Allah? If so, the pertinant U.N. resolution you might wish to view is resolution 1559.

Israel will not nuke you, though, because nukes are not an effective means to combat militias that engage in guerilla tactics.

Please you got me wrong my friend,i didnt not try to disrespect u in any way :confused: ,but i just pointed out the fact that Farsi and Arabic are 2 different languages( cause i thought u didnt know :confused: ).I did not try to laugh at you or anything.So im terribly sorry if wrote something that seemed like "me laughing at you"!But instead i pointed out the fact at the beginning where i said that i admire your will to learn other cultures.
P.S:@ all the rest who replied to me, i'll reply soon, i just cant right now im off to work,i just wanted to clear the misunderstandings between me and Gardner,Thanks in advance!!
 
sasho said:
Please you got me wrong my friend,i didnt not try to disrespect u in any way :confused: ,but i just pointed out the fact that Farsi and Arabic are 2 different languages( cause i thought u didnt know :confused: ).I did not try to laugh at you or anything.So im terribly sorry if wrote something that seemed like "me laughing at you"!But instead i pointed out the fact at the beginning where i said that i admire your will to learn other cultures.
P.S:@ all the rest who replied to me, i'll reply soon, i just cant right now im off to work,i just wanted to clear the misunderstandings between me and Gardner,Thanks in advance!!


IED factory? Radical Islam Incorporated?

Sorry...couldn't resist that one. Just a harsh joke. Let it go.
 
GySgt said:
IED factory? Radical Islam Incorporated?

Sorry...couldn't resist that one. Just a harsh joke. Let it go.


Ouch that was harsh....
 
Iran has absolutely no right to nuclear energy. Especially when a psycho like their current president runs the country. I hear many Iranians say that they don´t agree with their president´s opinions and actions. Well, if you do so why did you vote for him in the first place?

I say you´re damn lucky we invaded Iraq first. But don´t worry soon it will be your turn too.
 
sasho said:
Please you got me wrong my friend,i didnt not try to disrespect u in any way :confused: ,but i just pointed out the fact that Farsi and Arabic are 2 different languages( cause i thought u didnt know :confused: ).I did not try to laugh at you or anything.So im terribly sorry if wrote something that seemed like "me laughing at you"!But instead i pointed out the fact at the beginning where i said that i admire your will to learn other cultures.
P.S:@ all the rest who replied to me, i'll reply soon, i just cant right now im off to work,i just wanted to clear the misunderstandings between me and Gardner,Thanks in advance!!


No offense taken, Sasho, and no need to apologise. THanks for the friendly reply.

Right now, I would think Israel having nukes might be less of an immediate concern to you than the Maronite reaction to yesterday's events. These sorts of things can get out of hand quick.
 
Take a look at this. It is a simple music video aired on television in the Middle East.

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ClipMediaID=89358&ak=null

Still think it is only fair to allow Iran to develop nukes? Still believe that our enemy is just a handful of terrorists and not a failing civilization? Even with every indicator smacking us in the face, people in the Middle East will still choose to claim that they are just misunderstood and many Americans will choose to be "politically correct" over recognizing a threat to their existence.
 
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ProudAmerican said:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,183413,00.html

On Tuesday, the IAEA said in a report that Iran obtained documents and drawings on the black market that serve no other purpose than to make an atomic warhead. The report also confirmed information recently provided by diplomats familiar with the Iran probe that Tehran has not started small-scale uranium enrichment since announcing it would earlier this month.

This country can NOT be allowed to continue to persue nuclear energy.

Bush/Blair War Provocation Memo Sends Warning To Iran
Today's revelations that Tony Blair and George W. Bush debated staging an act of provocation to goad Saddam Hussein into war sends a very clear warning as to how a pretext for a conflict with Iran could be manufactured.

It was reported today that Bush and Blair's 31 January White House meeting was a rubber stamp on the decision to go to war, irrespective of whether the United Nations had passed a new resolution authorizing the use of force. However, this isn't the story. As far back as 1999, before he was even elected, George W. Bush told his biographer that he thought it was his political destiny to invade Iraq.

The real story here is that Bush proposed flying a U2 spy plane over Iraq and painting it in UN colors, therefore goading Saddam to order the aircraft to be fired upon and resulting in a widespread UN mandate for the war.

It is important to pause and underline the fact that when we talk about Bush, we are really talking about the puppet masters behind Bush. A man who has to ask permission to use the little boys room isn't about to craft any kind of war strategy.

To re-iterate, the US government considered staging an act of provocation that would fool the world into supporting an unpopular war.

This tactic is by no means new. The Gulf of Tonkin incident, where US warships were apparently attacked by North Vietnamese PT Boats, an incident that kicked off US involvement in the Vietnam war, was a staged event that never actually took place. Declassified LBJ presidential tapes discuss how to spin the non-event to escalate it as justification for air strikes and the NSA faked intelligence data to make it appear as if two US ships had been lost.

Operation Northwoods, Pearl Harbor and the attack on the USS Liberty are other historical examples where the same method of staged provocation was either considered or directly used in an attempt to start a conflict.

In a more modern context, the Pentagon's P2OG program was aimed at launching "secret operations aimed at "stimulating reactions" among terrorists and states possessing weapons of mass destruction, meaning it would prod terrorist cells into action, thus exposing them to "quick-response" attacks by US forces. "

Others would argue that the worldwide torture program is another indirect method of provocation whereby radical Muslims would be angered into increasing their attacks on US interests.

Judging by the history of attempts to provoke enemies into appearing to strike first, we should be all the more wary that this could be the pretext used to justify a war on Iran.

Appearing on the Alex Jones Show, British Member of Parliament George Galloway was asked whether he saw the possibility of the military-industrial complex staging a terror attack to be blamed on Iran. Galloway responded by saying that he thought it was "a very real danger."

Former UN weapons inspector Scott Ritter and CIA analyst Ray McGovern have also expressed their fears that a staged attack is possible.

Russian Governor and former nuclear power plant manager Pavel Ipatov today stated that Iran was incapable of building a nuclear weapon. Such an assertion was even backed up by National Intelligence Director John Negroponte, who stated that Iran simply does not have the material to produce nuclear bombs.

Even the CIA's own national intelligence estimate concluded that Iran was at least ten years away from manufacturing the key ingredient for a nuclear weapon.

The International Atomic Energy Agency inspectors say there is no evidence of a weapons program.

But they removed the seals! What about the seals!

Removing the seals was portrayed by the media as an act of defiance, without considering for a moment that Iran voluntarily put the seals on in the first place! Removing the seals doesn't mean that Iran is going to produce a bomb five minutes later but the willful ignorance surrounding this issue has artificially escalated tensions without recourse.

There is no evidence that Iran is producing a nuclear weapon. They don't have the material to do so and even if they did, their every action is under constant scrutiny. It would be like you or I trying to manufacture a wristwatch with a piece of cloth while not being able to use our arms or legs.

But Ahmadinejad said he wanted to wipe Israel off the map!

There's no debating the fact that Ahmadinejad is not the sharpest knife in the draw. However, such a comment needs to be taken in context.

Firstly, there is no possible way Iran could invade Israel. There are four routes to Israel, three are fortified with US troops and the other by Turkish troops under US control.

Secondly, Iran invading Israel would be like Barney the purple dinosaur waking up King Kong. The wrath of the US and Israel's nuclear might would immediately rain down on Iran and turn it into a giant car park.

Ahmadinejad's comments were a crude political points scoring gimmick just like President Bush's "just bring 'em" quip to Iraqi insurgents.

The warhawks and the media seem to be less concerned about the fact that top Chinese general's like Zhu Chenghu are threatening to nuke American cities.

Kim Jong-il, on an almost annual basis, threatens to "destroy the earth." Most analysts agree that North Korea already has nuclear weapons but it goes unnoticed, even as North Korea fires dummy missiles that hit Alaska.

The end justifies the means. Iran has been targeted for elimination and the bloodthirsty salivating PNAC crowd are going to do everything they can to engineer a war, by fair means or foul.

The rivers of history and the alarm bells of today should remind us all that a staged incident remains an omnipotent danger as we accelerate further into 2006.
http://www.infowars.com/articles/iraq/iraq_bush_blair_war_provokation.htm

We are being set up again just like in Iraq.
 
Robodoon said:
Bush/Blair War Provocation Memo Sends Warning To Iran
Today's revelations that Tony Blair and George W. Bush debated staging an act of provocation to goad Saddam Hussein into war sends a very clear warning as to how a pretext for a conflict with Iran could be manufactured.

It was reported today that Bush and Blair's 31 January White House meeting was a rubber stamp on the decision to go to war, irrespective of whether the United Nations had passed a new resolution authorizing the use of force. However, this isn't the story. As far back as 1999, before he was even elected, George W. Bush told his biographer that he thought it was his political destiny to invade Iraq.

The real story here is that Bush proposed flying a U2 spy plane over Iraq and painting it in UN colors, therefore goading Saddam to order the aircraft to be fired upon and resulting in a widespread UN mandate for the war.

It is important to pause and underline the fact that when we talk about Bush, we are really talking about the puppet masters behind Bush. A man who has to ask permission to use the little boys room isn't about to craft any kind of war strategy.

To re-iterate, the US government considered staging an act of provocation that would fool the world into supporting an unpopular war.

This tactic is by no means new. The Gulf of Tonkin incident, where US warships were apparently attacked by North Vietnamese PT Boats, an incident that kicked off US involvement in the Vietnam war, was a staged event that never actually took place. Declassified LBJ presidential tapes discuss how to spin the non-event to escalate it as justification for air strikes and the NSA faked intelligence data to make it appear as if two US ships had been lost.

Operation Northwoods, Pearl Harbor and the attack on the USS Liberty are other historical examples where the same method of staged provocation was either considered or directly used in an attempt to start a conflict.

In a more modern context, the Pentagon's P2OG program was aimed at launching "secret operations aimed at "stimulating reactions" among terrorists and states possessing weapons of mass destruction, meaning it would prod terrorist cells into action, thus exposing them to "quick-response" attacks by US forces. "

Others would argue that the worldwide torture program is another indirect method of provocation whereby radical Muslims would be angered into increasing their attacks on US interests.

Judging by the history of attempts to provoke enemies into appearing to strike first, we should be all the more wary that this could be the pretext used to justify a war on Iran.

Appearing on the Alex Jones Show, British Member of Parliament George Galloway was asked whether he saw the possibility of the military-industrial complex staging a terror attack to be blamed on Iran. Galloway responded by saying that he thought it was "a very real danger."

Former UN weapons inspector Scott Ritter and CIA analyst Ray McGovern have also expressed their fears that a staged attack is possible.

Russian Governor and former nuclear power plant manager Pavel Ipatov today stated that Iran was incapable of building a nuclear weapon. Such an assertion was even backed up by National Intelligence Director John Negroponte, who stated that Iran simply does not have the material to produce nuclear bombs.

Even the CIA's own national intelligence estimate concluded that Iran was at least ten years away from manufacturing the key ingredient for a nuclear weapon.

The International Atomic Energy Agency inspectors say there is no evidence of a weapons program.

But they removed the seals! What about the seals!

Removing the seals was portrayed by the media as an act of defiance, without considering for a moment that Iran voluntarily put the seals on in the first place! Removing the seals doesn't mean that Iran is going to produce a bomb five minutes later but the willful ignorance surrounding this issue has artificially escalated tensions without recourse.

There is no evidence that Iran is producing a nuclear weapon. They don't have the material to do so and even if they did, their every action is under constant scrutiny. It would be like you or I trying to manufacture a wristwatch with a piece of cloth while not being able to use our arms or legs.

But Ahmadinejad said he wanted to wipe Israel off the map!

There's no debating the fact that Ahmadinejad is not the sharpest knife in the draw. However, such a comment needs to be taken in context.

Firstly, there is no possible way Iran could invade Israel. There are four routes to Israel, three are fortified with US troops and the other by Turkish troops under US control.

Secondly, Iran invading Israel would be like Barney the purple dinosaur waking up King Kong. The wrath of the US and Israel's nuclear might would immediately rain down on Iran and turn it into a giant car park.

Ahmadinejad's comments were a crude political points scoring gimmick just like President Bush's "just bring 'em" quip to Iraqi insurgents.

The warhawks and the media seem to be less concerned about the fact that top Chinese general's like Zhu Chenghu are threatening to nuke American cities.

Kim Jong-il, on an almost annual basis, threatens to "destroy the earth." Most analysts agree that North Korea already has nuclear weapons but it goes unnoticed, even as North Korea fires dummy missiles that hit Alaska.

The end justifies the means. Iran has been targeted for elimination and the bloodthirsty salivating PNAC crowd are going to do everything they can to engineer a war, by fair means or foul.

The rivers of history and the alarm bells of today should remind us all that a staged incident remains an omnipotent danger as we accelerate further into 2006.
http://www.infowars.com/articles/iraq/iraq_bush_blair_war_provokation.htm

We are being set up again just like in Iraq.


This is the highest level of intellect you bring to the forum? Conspiracy theories and ludicrous claims? A commentary of pathetic whining and not even in your own words? There is a "conspiracy" section on the forum for this type of garbage. Displaying it around these here parts will just embarrass you.
 
Robodoon said:
Bush/Blair War Provocation Memo Sends Warning To Iran
Today's revelations that Tony Blair and George W. Bush debated staging an act of provocation to goad Saddam Hussein into war sends a very clear warning as to how a pretext for a conflict with Iran could be manufactured.

It was reported today that Bush and Blair's 31 January White House meeting was a rubber stamp on the decision to go to war, irrespective of whether the United Nations had passed a new resolution authorizing the use of force. However, this isn't the story. As far back as 1999, before he was even elected, George W. Bush told his biographer that he thought it was his political destiny to invade Iraq.

The real story here is that Bush proposed flying a U2 spy plane over Iraq and painting it in UN colors, therefore goading Saddam to order the aircraft to be fired upon and resulting in a widespread UN mandate for the war.

It is important to pause and underline the fact that when we talk about Bush, we are really talking about the puppet masters behind Bush. A man who has to ask permission to use the little boys room isn't about to craft any kind of war strategy.

To re-iterate, the US government considered staging an act of provocation that would fool the world into supporting an unpopular war.

This tactic is by no means new. The Gulf of Tonkin incident, where US warships were apparently attacked by North Vietnamese PT Boats, an incident that kicked off US involvement in the Vietnam war, was a staged event that never actually took place. Declassified LBJ presidential tapes discuss how to spin the non-event to escalate it as justification for air strikes and the NSA faked intelligence data to make it appear as if two US ships had been lost.

Operation Northwoods, Pearl Harbor and the attack on the USS Liberty are other historical examples where the same method of staged provocation was either considered or directly used in an attempt to start a conflict.

In a more modern context, the Pentagon's P2OG program was aimed at launching "secret operations aimed at "stimulating reactions" among terrorists and states possessing weapons of mass destruction, meaning it would prod terrorist cells into action, thus exposing them to "quick-response" attacks by US forces. "

Others would argue that the worldwide torture program is another indirect method of provocation whereby radical Muslims would be angered into increasing their attacks on US interests.

Judging by the history of attempts to provoke enemies into appearing to strike first, we should be all the more wary that this could be the pretext used to justify a war on Iran.

Appearing on the Alex Jones Show, British Member of Parliament George Galloway was asked whether he saw the possibility of the military-industrial complex staging a terror attack to be blamed on Iran. Galloway responded by saying that he thought it was "a very real danger."

Former UN weapons inspector Scott Ritter and CIA analyst Ray McGovern have also expressed their fears that a staged attack is possible.

Russian Governor and former nuclear power plant manager Pavel Ipatov today stated that Iran was incapable of building a nuclear weapon. Such an assertion was even backed up by National Intelligence Director John Negroponte, who stated that Iran simply does not have the material to produce nuclear bombs.

Even the CIA's own national intelligence estimate concluded that Iran was at least ten years away from manufacturing the key ingredient for a nuclear weapon.

The International Atomic Energy Agency inspectors say there is no evidence of a weapons program.

But they removed the seals! What about the seals!

Removing the seals was portrayed by the media as an act of defiance, without considering for a moment that Iran voluntarily put the seals on in the first place! Removing the seals doesn't mean that Iran is going to produce a bomb five minutes later but the willful ignorance surrounding this issue has artificially escalated tensions without recourse.

There is no evidence that Iran is producing a nuclear weapon. They don't have the material to do so and even if they did, their every action is under constant scrutiny. It would be like you or I trying to manufacture a wristwatch with a piece of cloth while not being able to use our arms or legs.

But Ahmadinejad said he wanted to wipe Israel off the map!

There's no debating the fact that Ahmadinejad is not the sharpest knife in the draw. However, such a comment needs to be taken in context.

Firstly, there is no possible way Iran could invade Israel. There are four routes to Israel, three are fortified with US troops and the other by Turkish troops under US control.

Secondly, Iran invading Israel would be like Barney the purple dinosaur waking up King Kong. The wrath of the US and Israel's nuclear might would immediately rain down on Iran and turn it into a giant car park.

Ahmadinejad's comments were a crude political points scoring gimmick just like President Bush's "just bring 'em" quip to Iraqi insurgents.

The warhawks and the media seem to be less concerned about the fact that top Chinese general's like Zhu Chenghu are threatening to nuke American cities.

Kim Jong-il, on an almost annual basis, threatens to "destroy the earth." Most analysts agree that North Korea already has nuclear weapons but it goes unnoticed, even as North Korea fires dummy missiles that hit Alaska.

The end justifies the means. Iran has been targeted for elimination and the bloodthirsty salivating PNAC crowd are going to do everything they can to engineer a war, by fair means or foul.

The rivers of history and the alarm bells of today should remind us all that a staged incident remains an omnipotent danger as we accelerate further into 2006.
http://www.infowars.com/articles/iraq/iraq_bush_blair_war_provokation.htm

We are being set up again just like in Iraq.

I'm going to explain things nicely this time Robodoon. The Copy and Paste technique may be swell at other Forums, but not at Debate Politics. Condense the article into a small paragraph and then drop a link for any that wish to read on. Copy and Paste is actually frowned upon at DP... as posters here are expected to debate using their own intellect rather than borrowing someone else's. Consider this as a friendly warning from a Moderator.
 
Tashah said:
I'm going to explain things nicely this time Robodoon. The Copy and Paste technique may be swell at other Forums, but not at Debate Politics. Condense the article into a small paragraph and then drop a link for any that wish to read on. Copy and Paste is actually frowned upon at DP... as posters here are expected to debate using their own intellect rather than borrowing someone else's. Consider this as a friendly warning from a Moderator.


OK, sorry

To Summerize we are being set up AGAIN!
 
All,

Sorry to have taken so long to respond to the posts made in reply to my own. I had a pretty big project to handle this past weekend, and so I did not get to it. I will post replies tomorrow.

Thanks.
 
Let's be fair here. Going back to 1982 doesn't cut it. The State of Israel was proclaimed by England and admitted to the UN in 1949. The U.S. recognized Israel within hours
So if the UN,England and the USA,admits the existance of an illegal country within another one,so automaticly the whole world should aproove to that?Im in texas right now,and let's say i want an Islamic country within the state of Texas and the UN and US grant me my wishes,do u think i can make it happen?wouldn't the poeple of Texas retaliate by using any means possibly available?(Alot of conservative christians live here)
The question to ask is why did Israel attack into Lebanon? Do you honestly believe that it was because those darn Jews were just out to kill Muslims? It doesn't quite paint the complete picture by bringing up that Israel has threatened to do what it must and leaving out that it has done so after the Muslim world decided to make war.
But why did the muslim world decide to attack Israel?Isnt it because they saw that it is unfair for the palestinians to suffer for the genocides commited by Hitler to the jews during WW2.(in other words,the creation of Israel in Palestine).
NK is a bigger threat from launch, which makes them a non threat. They are not suicidal. Iran would never launch. That would be foolish. However, they would give a nuke to an extremist group and claim complete ignorance after detonation inside Israel, America, and now European nations since the cartoon temper tantrums being thrown everywhere. This makes Iran more dangerous.
I agree on the fact that Iran would not be the first to launch or strike,neither do NK.But aren't you making assumptions here,that Iran would give the Nuke to an extremist group and blow it somewhere?So if your telling me that your assuming Iran would do that,then we can assume that the US have done and can do that ( just give a bomb to someone,not like an actual detonation ever happened.)
 
GySgt said:
This is the highest level of intellect you bring to the forum? Conspiracy theories and ludicrous claims? A commentary of pathetic whining and not even in your own words? There is a "conspiracy" section on the forum for this type of garbage. Displaying it around these here parts will just embarrass you.


No just because your fighting for nothing but the goals of the people who plan to kill of most of the Earth Population. YOUR FIGHTING FOR THE UN not the USA...didn't you know?

Don't worry you alway have the MSM to tell you the truth ;)

Iraq was a lie, it was written down 70 years ago, and you are being used by the men who make war on earth and I'm not talking about bush.

IS THIS WHAT YOU ARE FIGHTING FOR? http://www.robodoon.com/oakland_disarm.htm

If you are in Iraq, we need you at home, while your are fighting for freedom we are losing it at home...so what are you really fighting for?
 
Any warnings Israel gives to either Lebanon or Syria are quite similar to those it gives the Palestinians... control your terrorists or we shall do it for you.
First of all,how do u think the PLO got created in lebanon?Maybe because the palestinians that got kicked out of their homeland and came as refugee's here.So Israel kicks out a bunch of palestinians,they become terrorists,and then complains about them.In other words,Israel had a big part in creating the PLO.
Second of all,back then Lebanon had a civil war between muslims and christians,so basicly our goverment was screwed,we didnt have an army;so how do u expect us to control those " terrorists".and isnt it the UN's job to go in lebanon and control those terrorists?
What exactly persuaded Israel to initiate a military expedition into Lebanon? Could it be that Israel grew weary of the heavy and constant PLO and Hizb'allah rocket attacks on northern Israel emanating from Lebanon? As was stated previously, if you can't or won't control your terrorist element, then external force will be applied.

UN Resolution 425 did call for an Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon, but it did not (conveniently?) contain any mechanism or provision for ending the rocket and mortar attacks on Israel. When this threat was eliminated, Israel did indeed withdraw all military forces from Lebanon. Don't blame Israel because Lebanon and the UN are impotent.
For the first paragraph,i already replied.
"When this threat was eliminated,Israel did indeed withdraw",PLO and Hizb Allah still exist in lebanon,they are stronger than ever,and they still have Rockets and mortor capabilities.But you can see,that they stopped bombing Israeli terrotries after Israel withdrew from southern lebanon.You make it seem like Israel went into lebanon and won?i dont think so!Israel bombed us,Israel massacred us but still,the Israeli army couldn't hold Beirut for long!Maybe street warfare isnt Israel's game?
and Btw why should resolution 425 countains something about ending rocket attacks on Israel when they knew when they get out of Lebanon,the attacks will stop.And it is prooven,i dont see HizbAllah attacking Israeli forces after their total withdrawl from southern lebanon.
Israel did not ask for US military assistence in Lebanon (that's laughable) and the US didn't offer such. In simple terms, the Beirut mission of the US military was to act as a buffer between the waring factions until diplomacy could peacefully resolve Lebanon's internal conflicts. True to form, Hizb'allah eschewed peace and resorted to a terrorist attack against the US military.
I didnt say that Israel requested assisstance,but what i said is that US came to the AID.And since US was a peace keeping force why did the USS New Jersey bomb lebaneese shores at that point.and isn't it the UN's job to peace keep,wasnt it created and aknowledged to do Peace Keeping jobs around the world?again,i saw it,no one invited the US in lebanese terrotries,this was a hostile act by the US.
Yes, the same Syrian military and intelligence officials who for all practical purposes... annexed Lebanon and considered it a reservation where they could safey train, arm, and mobilize Hizb'allah and other terrorist organizations and then claim official innocence and ignorance. The Syrian government is currently under UN investigation for the murder of a former Lebaneese Prime Minister. Why it took Lebanon over twenty years to finally expell the Syrians from its territory (a military occupation), I shall perhaps never understand.
Your assuming that Syria annexed Lebanon's goverment,and your assuming that it was used to train so called terrorist organisations.Where is the solid proof on that?Maybe cause the US and western media said so?
A simple example: lets say im in a classand all my classmates knows that i love stealing books.And sudentley one day,a book dissapears,who do u think the fingers will be pointed at?me of course.Same thing with Syria and the investigation of the assassination of Rafik Al Hariri.Syria knew if any assassination attempt would ever occur to any politician,Lebanese fingers would point at Syria.The death of Rafik Al Hariri was not in Syria's best intrest for a couple of reasons.First finger will be pointed at Syria.Second Rafik had MAJOOOOOOR companies in Syria,and he invested alot there.And we cannot accuse Syria of killing him untill it is prooven that Syria was involved.
As about why the Syrian military wasnt expelled from Lebanon ealier.Maybe because Lebanese poeple didnt have anything against them untill one point,where Israel is not in lebanon anymore,and the Syrian military is not needed anymore.Dont get me wrong,i hate Syria,trust me i do,they are not saints,they have commited some massacres.But not as horrifying as the ones commited by Israel.And the lebanese poeple knew about that,and thats why they did not expell Syria.
Primarily because: (1) Israel has possessed nuclear weapons prior to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) of 1967 (2) Israel has never used nuclear weapons despite numerous Arab invasions (3) Israel has never once threatened to use nuclear weapons. These reasons have historical validity, and exist in direct juxtaposition with the Iranian situation.
Since it doesnt need Nukes and " will never use them",why possess them then?just in case right?HA!You just showed that Israel might need them some day and use them :D. And you cannot use historical validity to validate ur argument on why Israel has Nuclear weapons.If so,conspiracies exist at this moment,cause history has always showed us the existance of such(Sykes-biko treaty).Yet when someone says that for example 9/11 never happened and base his argument on scientific methods,everybody refuses it and call it " conspiracy".i know the last sentence was irrelevant to the subject,but i was showing u my point that you cannot trust a country would not use nukes in the future just because it hasnt used them yet.
Can you provide any links to proclamation's by Kim Jong-il that North Korea will destroy the United States or any other nation? No? I didn't think so.

For unknown reasons, you seem to think that the United States and Israel are 'picking' on Iran. On the contrary, it is the IAEA of the United Nations that has found Iran to be in non-compliance with the NPT... to which Iran was a willing and original signatory. Additionally, it has been the European Union and Russia that have negotiated with Iran on this issue... to no avail. The IAEA will place Iran's NPT violations befire the United Nations Security Council later this month.

Aren't you a bit of a hypocrite also? You loudly embrace UN Resolution 425 of 1983 concerning Israel, yet you see fit to excuse Iran's current violations of the United Nations Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. Do you abide by all UN Resolutions and Treaties, or only those that apply to Israel and thus better suit your agenda?
Since Israel and the US is not picking on Iran,and the IAEA is doing all the work,why is Israel preparing a pre-emptive strike then?and Set its Due date in March.And yes,i do embrace all UN resolution that seems FIT and LEGAL.When you have neighboring countries that has Nukes ( pakistan,India,NK) wich clearly do not have the right to get them,then why shouldnt u break the law and get some aswell.I mean they are doing it,but the US and Israel are not picking on them,right?:)for god's sake,EVEN BULGARIA has a Nuclear Submarine bought from the Soviets.
This is a link for the NK missile threat
Code:
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/2/22/101931.shtml
.I saw a statement made by NK like 2 months ago or something,ill try to get it if i can find it to prove better that NK has issued threats.
 
@GySgt
First of all,please refrain from insulting other poeple and then saying its a joke.I'm a muslim on paper.what that means i that i DO NOT beleive in my religion,I am muslim because my dad is muslim and in Lebanon,u must follow ur dad's religion.I Drink,i Eat Pork,ive had sex before marriage,ive smoked pot,ive cursed god,ive cursed Prophet Mohammed.Basicly i broke all the rulez here.
 
Iran has absolutely no right to nuclear energy. Especially when a psycho like their current president runs the country. I hear many Iranians say that they don´t agree with their president´s opinions and actions. Well, if you do so why did you vote for him in the first place?

I say you´re damn lucky we invaded Iraq first. But don´t worry soon it will be your turn too.
Psycho?define Psycho?Not all poeple beleive he's psycho.and "I hear many Iranians say that they dont agree ..ect....." Where did u hear that?Proof of some sort maybe?
"I say you´re damn lucky we invaded Iraq first. But don´t worry soon it will be your turn too". Woow that was one hell of a productive argument u made there.your saying::" we took Iraq, we took Afghanistan,and now Iran UR IT"
As our moderator Tashah said everything we write goes into a Database,and if you dont have anything productive to say and give proof of, please don't say it as it fills the database with useless info.

@ Gardner:
------------
Thanks for accepting my apology and im glad we cleared the misunderstandins between us both.And yes Lebanon is gonna get screwed up soon, ALTHOUGHT a civil war would never brake out.Various religious leaders got the concept of a civil war and its effects and they will never do it again.
2 days ago( i think) Hassan Nassrallah ( hizb allah leader) formed an alliance with former General " Mishell Aoun" ( wich is a christian leader),so basicly from this alliance i understood that a civil war would never brake out in Lebanon again ( unless provoked by some other higher power countries).
 
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