For Christ's Sake

[Good4Nothin]

Jesus probably was real. But he was just another rabbi/healer/prophet. There was one of those in every neighborhood back then.

That doesn't mean Christianity is BS. It contains truth which is SYMBOLIC, if you overlook the layers of mythology that were laid on top of the central truths.

Jesus represents the aspect of "god" (the conscious universe) that we humans can connect to. The same thing exists in many religions and spiritual traditions, it is not special to Christianity.

I respect Christians and their beliefs, especially if they aren't hung up on picking irrelevant things out of the bible and getting fixated on them. Like whether Jesus hated homosexuality (no, we can assume he did not hate homosexuality, since he did not ever once mention it!).

Jesus was not the biological son of God, and his mother was not a holy virgin. Just let go of all that. None of it makes any difference at all.

The essence of Christianity is, as William James said, the same as the mystical essence of all religions. That is our connectedness to the conscious universe.

We often feel separate, and that is why we need "salvation." We need the connection that is naturally there.

It makes no difference if you call it Jesus or Higher Power or Spirit Guide, or whatever you want.

 

[zyzygy]

Jesus probably was real. But he was just another rabbi/healer/prophet. There was one of those in every neighborhood back then.

That doesn't mean Christianity is BS. It contains truth which is SYMBOLIC, if you overlook the layers of mythology that were laid on top of the central truths.

Jesus represents the aspect of "god" (the conscious universe) that we humans can connect to. The same thing exists in many religions and spiritual traditions, it is not special to Christianity.

I respect Christians and their beliefs, especially if they aren't hung up on picking irrelevant things out of the bible and getting fixated on them. Like whether Jesus hated homosexuality (no, we can assume he did not hate homosexuality, since he did not ever once mention it!).

Jesus was not the biological son of God, and his mother was not a holy virgin. Just let go of all that. None of it makes any difference at all.

The essence of Christianity is, as William James said, the same as the mystical essence of all religions. That is our connectedness to the conscious universe.

We often feel separate, and that is why we need "salvation." We need the connection that is naturally there.

It makes no difference if you call it Jesus or Higher Power or Spirit Guide, or whatever you want.

There is no proof of a conscious universe. Where is the consciousness in the Hubble Deep Field Image and how does it affect us?

 

[Angel]

There is no proof of a conscious universe. Where is the consciousness in the Hubble Deep Field Image and how does it affect us?

Are you conscious? Are you part of the universe?

 

[Good4Nothin]

Are you conscious? Are you part of the universe?

I just pretend he isn't part of the universe.

 

[Tanngrisnir]

Are you conscious? Are you part of the universe?

None of us are.

Duh.

 

[Omega Man]

There is no proof of a conscious universe. Where is the consciousness in the Hubble Deep Field Image and how does it affect us?

What kind of neural activity is the Hubble designed to detect?


OM

 

[zyzygy]

What kind of neural activity is the Hubble designed to detect?


OM

You tell me. The universe displays no signs of neural activity. The brain creates the mind.

 

[OlNate]

Jesus probably was real. But he was just another rabbi/healer/prophet. There was one of those in every neighborhood back then.

That doesn't mean Christianity is BS. It contains truth which is SYMBOLIC, if you overlook the layers of mythology that were laid on top of the central truths.

Jesus represents the aspect of "god" (the conscious universe) that we humans can connect to. The same thing exists in many religions and spiritual traditions, it is not special to Christianity.

I respect Christians and their beliefs, especially if they aren't hung up on picking irrelevant things out of the bible and getting fixated on them. Like whether Jesus hated homosexuality (no, we can assume he did not hate homosexuality, since he did not ever once mention it!).

Jesus was not the biological son of God, and his mother was not a holy virgin. Just let go of all that. None of it makes any difference at all.

The essence of Christianity is, as William James said, the same as the mystical essence of all religions. That is our connectedness to the conscious universe.

We often feel separate, and that is why we need "salvation." We need the connection that is naturally there.

It makes no difference if you call it Jesus or Higher Power or Spirit Guide, or whatever you want.

If it makes no difference, why try to get people to change?

 

[Good4Nothin]

If it makes no difference, why try to get people to change?

You thought that's what I'm trying to do?

 

[OlNate]

You thought that's what I'm trying to do?

Well, it seemed that way, but I might be unclear about your intentions. As a Christian, I believe Jesus Christ is the son of God. Was the "Just let go of all that. None of it makes any difference at all." aimed at me, or at folks who criticize me for believing that?

There are all kinds of gotcha folks in this forum, I'm not one of them, in case you were worried...just trying to understand your thread.

 

[Good4Nothin]

Well, it seemed that way, but I might be unclear about your intentions. As a Christian, I believe Jesus Christ is the son of God. Was the "Just let go of all that. None of it makes any difference at all." aimed at me, or at folks who criticize me for believing that?

There are all kinds of gotcha folks in this forum, I'm not one of them, in case you were worried...just trying to understand your thread.

I think believing the Christian mythology helps people to focus their faith. I think your faith might be stronger, in a way, because of that. So I would never try to convince someone to stop having that kind of faith.

But if your Christian religion causes you to be intolerant or dogmatic towards others, then I would say it is harmful to society.

Being judgmental about abortion, for example, is very harmful and no-win for everyone. It makes Christians look narrow-minded and unrealistic and causes backlash. And similarly for homosexuality. These things should be let go of and forgotten. It makes religion look stupid.

And being overly dogmatic about Jesus gives ammunition to militant atheists. It's easy for them to argue that you have no scientific evidence for those beliefs.

But the central truths of Christianity, and all religions, are not good targets for atheists. As I have explained in other threads, modern science is actually starting to go in the direction of universal consciousness.

Our society is extremely divided, and that is partly because of religion. But it doesn't have to be this bad.

 

[devildavid]

Are you conscious? Are you part of the universe?

Are rutabagas conscious? Are rutabagas part of the universe?

 

[devildavid]

I think believing the Christian mythology helps people to focus their faith. I think your faith might be stronger, in a way, because of that. So I would never try to convince someone to stop having that kind of faith.

But if your Christian religion causes you to be intolerant or dogmatic towards others, then I would say it is harmful to society.

Being judgmental about abortion, for example, is very harmful and no-win for everyone. It makes Christians look narrow-minded and unrealistic and causes backlash. And similarly for homosexuality. These things should be let go of and forgotten. It makes religion look stupid.

And being overly dogmatic about Jesus gives ammunition to militant atheists. It's easy for them to argue that you have no scientific evidence for those beliefs.

But the central truths of Christianity, and all religions, are not good targets for atheists. As I have explained in other threads, modern science is actually starting to go in the direction of universal consciousness.

Our society is extremely divided, and that is partly because of religion. But it doesn't have to be this bad.

What are the central truths of all religions?

 

[Conaeolos]

But if your Christian religion causes you to be intolerant or dogmatic towards others, then I would say it is harmful to society.

Being judgmental about abortion, for example, is very harmful and no-win for everyone. It makes Christians look narrow-minded and unrealistic and causes backlash. And similarly for homosexuality. These things should be let go of and forgotten. It makes religion look stupid.

I was semi following you till this. Now as a strong believer in limited government I am social liberal politically so I would hesitantly side with you on both those issues(with perhaps compromises on abortion); however, I also 100% understand where social conservatives come from when they oppose abortion & homosexuality.

How in the world can say strait faced having a family first verse individual mentality toward the world is narrow-minded and dogmatic? Would you care to expand?

 

[devildavid]

I think believing the Christian mythology helps people to focus their faith. I think your faith might be stronger, in a way, because of that. So I would never try to convince someone to stop having that kind of faith.

But if your Christian religion causes you to be intolerant or dogmatic towards others, then I would say it is harmful to society.

Being judgmental about abortion, for example, is very harmful and no-win for everyone. It makes Christians look narrow-minded and unrealistic and causes backlash. And similarly for homosexuality. These things should be let go of and forgotten. It makes religion look stupid.

And being overly dogmatic about Jesus gives ammunition to militant atheists. It's easy for them to argue that you have no scientific evidence for those beliefs.

But the central truths of Christianity, and all religions, are not good targets for atheists. As I have explained in other threads, modern science is actually starting to go in the direction of universal consciousness.

Our society is extremely divided, and that is partly because of religion. But it doesn't have to be this bad.

What makes all religions look stupid is believing in stuff that is obviously make believe.

 

[<alt>doxygen]

Jesus probably was real. But he was just another rabbi/healer/prophet. There was one of those in every neighborhood back then.

That doesn't mean Christianity is BS. It contains truth which is SYMBOLIC, if you overlook the layers of mythology that were laid on top of the central truths.

Jesus represents the aspect of "god" (the conscious universe) that we humans can connect to. The same thing exists in many religions and spiritual traditions, it is not special to Christianity.

I respect Christians and their beliefs, especially if they aren't hung up on picking irrelevant things out of the bible and getting fixated on them. Like whether Jesus hated homosexuality (no, we can assume he did not hate homosexuality, since he did not ever once mention it!).

Jesus was not the biological son of God, and his mother was not a holy virgin. Just let go of all that. None of it makes any difference at all.

The essence of Christianity is, as William James said, the same as the mystical essence of all religions. That is our connectedness to the conscious universe.

We often feel separate, and that is why we need "salvation." We need the connection that is naturally there.

It makes no difference if you call it Jesus or Higher Power or Spirit Guide, or whatever you want.

Good post, even if no one else likes it. LOL...

I understand.

 

[Good4Nothin]

What are the central truths of all religions?

Why do you comment when you haven't read the OP?

 

[Good4Nothin]

I was semi following you till this. Now as a strong believer in limited government I am social liberal politically so I would hesitantly side with you on both those issues(with perhaps compromises on abortion); however, I also 100% understand where social conservatives come from when they oppose abortion & homosexuality.

How in the world can say strait faced having a family first verse individual mentality toward the world is narrow-minded and dogmatic? Would you care to expand?

First of all, I have never been "pro-abortion." I think abortion should be controlled and restricted. But how in heck is preventing abortions a "family first" mentality? That makes no sense. Forcing women to continue a pregnancy they didn't plan and are not ready for is no good for anyone.

Women should be as careful as possible to not have unwanted pregnancies, but mistakes are possible. There is no reason to ruin someone's life because of a mistake that can be fixed.

I was always very much against the idea that abortion is ok and should not be limited. It is not ok, but sometimes it is necessary.

There are easy compromises, and being militant about it helps no one and prevents communication. It is plain stupid.

And how can you possibly think homosexuality is a pro individual mentality? Some people are homosexual. I have a homosexual relative an I know darned well he tried as hard as he could to be straight. How does it help society if homosexuals deny their nature and get married? How is that pro family?

None of what you said makes any sense at all. It has NOTHING to do with Christianity, and it has nothing to do with religion. Nothing at all.

 

[Good4Nothin]

Good post, even if no one else likes it. LOL...

I understand.

Thank you. It is the kind of statement that is guaranteed to be disliked by almost everyone.

 

[Conaeolos]

First of all, I have never been "pro-abortion." I think abortion should be controlled and restricted. But how in heck is preventing abortions a "family first" mentality? That makes no sense. Forcing women to continue a pregnancy they didn't plan and are not ready for is no good for anyone.

Women should be as careful as possible to not have unwanted pregnancies, but mistakes are possible. There is no reason to ruin someone's life because of a mistake that can be fixed.

I was always very much against the idea that abortion is ok and should not be limited. It is not ok, but sometimes it is necessary.

There are easy compromises, and being militant about it helps no one and prevents communication. It is plain stupid.

And how can you possibly think homosexuality is a pro individual mentality? Some people are homosexual. I have a homosexual relative an I know darned well he tried as hard as he could to be straight. How does it help society if homosexuals deny their nature and get married? How is that pro family?

None of what you said makes any sense at all. It has NOTHING to do with Christianity, and it has nothing to do with religion. Nothing at all.

I phrased my post poorly and it was unduly aggressive. My first post I deleted even just added to your first post. It’s difficult for me to make my point when politically we are clearly 100% on the same page. And just to very clear I get how your pro-life but due to complexities involved stand pro-choice.

Morally though both our positions fall if we put ‘the family’ above the individual like the biblical standard does. For a family, children’s best interests are above parents no matter the conditions of their conception. Homosexuality no different than a man/woman who has fallen out of love with his wife/husband or who married for reasons other than love. Duty is above love. Crime punishable to the family not simply the person.

It may not be our culture but it was and I don’t think its narrow-minded or dogmatic to think that way. There is a moral logic to it. There is a grounds. Religion being between God and Person. To me its only a religious issue if those cultural values remain in certain sub-communities. Now when that spills over one must respect the majority culture, but so to the majority the minority.

Thanks for the thread. I enjoyed reading.

 

[OlNate]

I think believing the Christian mythology helps people to focus their faith. I think your faith might be stronger, in a way, because of that. So I would never try to convince someone to stop having that kind of faith.

But if your Christian religion causes you to be intolerant or dogmatic towards others, then I would say it is harmful to society.

Being judgmental about abortion, for example, is very harmful and no-win for everyone. It makes Christians look narrow-minded and unrealistic and causes backlash. And similarly for homosexuality. These things should be let go of and forgotten. It makes religion look stupid.

And being overly dogmatic about Jesus gives ammunition to militant atheists. It's easy for them to argue that you have no scientific evidence for those beliefs.

But the central truths of Christianity, and all religions, are not good targets for atheists. As I have explained in other threads, modern science is actually starting to go in the direction of universal consciousness.

Our society is extremely divided, and that is partly because of religion. But it doesn't have to be this bad.

Re: the bolded...I would agree. But perhaps a couple things would help:

1) Understand that generalization is the best way to be wrong. Your understanding of Christianity doesn't match the reality of all Christians. In fact, I would suggest that most Christians, worldwide, look very little like what you're describing. As an example, I'm Lutheran. We will perform same sex marriages, we include gay parishioners, and ordain gay ministers. In regards to abortion, if a parishioner comes to the church for advice, we will make them aware of all their options, and let them know that we will support them no matter what they choose. Excuse the pun, but you're preaching to the choir...hehe...

2) You overestimate how much I care about what "ammunition" we give militant atheists. They represent a minority within a minority (seeing as ~80% of the world are theists of one kind or another, and most atheists that make up the other 20% are not militant), and I would suggest their issues extend beyond my ability to influence them one way or the other. Sometimes they are fun to play with in forums, other times they manage to put me on tilt, but the reality is that they do not have sufficient influence to impact me in any tangible way, provided I can keep hold of my temper...hehe... I know, I know, listening to them you'd think they are the authority on everything and everyone....but at some point one realizes that their only way to hit back at those they hate is to troll, and you have to allow yourself to be trolled for that to have impact. Suddenly it becomes about mind over matter: I don't mind because they don't matter. Just like anyone that goes out of their way to be miserable to someone else.

I applaud and support anyone that has managed to make sense of this mess of a world we live in. If that is through belief, fantastic. If that is through an absence of faith, or faith that there is nothing to have faith in, fantastic. But if one needs to invalidate my "sense of this miss of a world we live in" in order to validate theirs, well...that's when they fall below my GAF prerequisite. I certainly don't feel the need to change my beliefs or views in order to avoid their criticism.

I don't see that religion is harmful to society. I think people are harmful to society. No matter how noble the human endeavor, there are always those that will misinterpret it, misrepresent it, and / or weaponize it. That's because assholery is a constant in human nature...hehe... Honestly, I think it's a cop out to blame religion for all the world's woes. Better to look at the root cause, lest one think their lack of religion precludes them from being an asshole too.

Will say, though, I do appreciate having a civil conversation with an atheist on here.

 

[Good4Nothin]

I phrased my post poorly and it was unduly aggressive. My first post I deleted even just added to your first post. It’s difficult for me to make my point when politically we are clearly 100% on the same page. And just to very clear I get how your pro-life but due to complexities involved stand pro-choice.

Morally though both our positions fall if we put ‘the family’ above the individual like the biblical standard does. For a family, children’s best interests are above parents no matter the conditions of their conception. Homosexuality no different than a man/woman who has fallen out of love with his wife/husband or who married for reasons other than love. Duty is above love. Crime punishable to the family not simply the person.

It may not be our culture but it was and I don’t think its narrow-minded or dogmatic to think that way. There is a moral logic to it. There is a grounds. Religion being between God and Person. To me its only a religious issue if those cultural values remain in certain sub-communities. Now when that spills over one must respect the majority culture, but so to the majority the minority.

Thanks for the thread. I enjoyed reading.

The family should come before the individual, because the purpose of the family is to protect the individuals, especially young children.

Similarly, the nation comes before the individual, because the purpose of the nation is to protect individuals and families.

But it is still the individual that matters. There is no reason to cause unnecessary cruelty to the individual. If a woman gets pregnant and is not ready, emotionally or financially, to have a baby, it will NOT harm her family if she has an early abortion.

Having an abortion will cause most women some emotional pain, but they can get over it. An unwanted pregnancy, however, can cause a lifetime of pain, whether she gives the baby away or not.

 

[Good4Nothin]

I don't see that religion is harmful to society. I think people are harmful to society. No matter how noble the human endeavor, there are always those that will misinterpret it, misrepresent it, and / or weaponize it. That's because assholery is a constant in human nature...hehe... Honestly, I think it's a cop out to blame religion for all the world's woes. Better to look at the root cause, lest one think their lack of religion precludes them from being an asshole too.

Will say, though, I do appreciate having a civil conversation with an atheist on here.

I am not an atheist. I don't think Jesus is God, that in no way makes me an atheists.

As for atheists being a minority, and most of those not militant -- I think you are underestimating the influence of militant "new" atheists. It is very common in academic and intellectual contexts. Very. It is dominating those aspects of our society. And that will just increase as more Americans go to college.

This bothers me not just because I think atheism is a false mythology. It's a false mythology that can be psychologically harmful. If atheism were true, we would have to believe it no matter how unpleasant. But since it isn't true, people are being indoctrinated into a false mythology that can harm them.

 

[OlNate]

I am not an atheist. I don't think Jesus is God, that in no way makes me an atheists.

As for atheists being a minority, and most of those not militant -- I think you are underestimating the influence of militant "new" atheists. It is very common in academic and intellectual contexts. Very. It is dominating those aspects of our society. And that will just increase as more Americans go to college.

This bothers me not just because I think atheism is a false mythology. It's a false mythology that can be psychologically harmful. If atheism were true, we would have to believe it no matter how unpleasant. But since it isn't true, people are being indoctrinated into a false mythology that can harm them.

My sincere apologies, I misunderstood where you are coming from. Glad you found something that makes sense to you, even if I don't fully understand it.

I do not worry about atheists, because if I have to worry about atheists, they were right all along. :shrug: But there has always been atheists, and there has always been a church...or a temple...or a mound...or a bonfire. This is as old as humanity. Do you really think a bunch of sulking meanies are going to undo it all in one generation?

 

[devildavid]

Why do you comment when you haven't read the OP?

I read it. What are the central truths of all religions?