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Florida limits professor tenure, citing ‘indoctrination’ concerns

Chomsky

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The big story: Florida Republican state officials continued to attack what they’re calling indoctrination in education. This time, they focused their attention on public colleges and universities.

In a news conference where he also touched on textbooks and Twitter, Gov. Ron DeSantis announced he would sign into law a measure placing limits on professors’ tenure. The goal, he said, was to hold the educators accountable for their performance, so they don’t fall into “intellectual orthodoxy.”

--

Right on the heels of the Disney takeover, comes news of yet another cultural attack by DeSantis & his Republican legislature.

The goal, he said, was to hold the educators accountable for their performance, so they don’t fall into “intellectual orthodoxy.”

I think we can assume a guy with a Yale B.A. and a Harvard J.D., is fully aware and cognizant the specific intent & purpose of university tenure - its raison d'etre - is to explicitly not hold tenured profs 'accountable'. Rather, it is to allow them intellectual freedom. Unabashed, untethered, intellectual freedom.

So, why then would DeSantis do this?

Obviously, for the same reason he went after Disney, the same way he went after kids' school books, the same way he's now going after university education. He seems hell-bent on indoctrinating the citizens of his state to his & his party's personal ideologies. And the more he's allowed to impress his will upon the good citizens of Florida, the more brazen & assertive he appears to become.

Florida's regressing before our eyes, my friends. This would be our 'future', should DeSantis ever become our nation's leader.

--

The DeSantis culture attacks just keep on coming . . .
 
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Bullseye

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--

Right on the heels of the Disney takeover, comes news of yet another cultural attack by DeSantis & his Republican legislature.



I think we can assume a guy with a Yale B.A. and a Harvard J.D., is fully aware and cognizant the specific intent & purpose of university tenure - its raison d'etre - is to explicitly not hold tenured profs 'accountable'. Rather, it is to allow them intellectual freedom. Unabashed, untethered, intellectual freedom.

So, why then would DeSantis do this?

Obviously, for the same reason he went after Disney, the same way he went after kids' school books, the same way he's now going after university education. He seems hell-bent on indoctrinating the citizens of his state to his & his party's personal ideologies. And the more he's allowed to impress his will upon the good citizens of Florida, the more brazen he appears to become.

Florida's regressing before our eyes, my friends. This would be our 'future', should DeSantis ever become our nation's leader.

--

The DeSantis culture attacks just keep on coming . . .
Sounds vaguely familiar; haven't many right leaning professors or those not sufficiently woke or those that said some non-woke comment in a post fifteen years ago being denied tenure or have their tenure revoked? The left has got so used to screwing over right leaners but it's a different story when conservatives fight back.
 

nota bene

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There has been a movement away from tenure for quite some time.



 

Chomsky

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Sounds vaguely familiar; haven't many right leaning professors or those not sufficiently woke or those that said some non-woke comment in a post fifteen years ago being denied tenure or have their tenure revoked? The left has got so used to screwing over right leaners but it's a different story when conservatives fight back.

That I can't speak to, but I do know DeSantis is doing this right now, for political reasons at that, and it's wrong.
 

Helix

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I figured that Republicans would eventually find a more dangerously authoritarian asshole than mango. Looks like they might have.
 

nota bene

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Sounds vaguely familiar; haven't many right leaning professors or those not sufficiently woke or those that said some non-woke comment in a post fifteen years ago being denied tenure or have their tenure revoked? The left has got so used to screwing over right leaners but it's a different story when conservatives fight back.
It's extremely difficult to take away tenure.
 

Goshin

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Mixed feelings.

On the one hand, having been afflicted with tenured professors who acted like jackasses before, I am not overly fond of the institution.

On the other hand, I'm not sure this is a Gov issue, unless Gov is the professor's employer.
 

Bodi

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--

Right on the heels of the Disney takeover, comes news of yet another cultural attack by DeSantis & his Republican legislature.



I think we can assume a guy with a Yale B.A. and a Harvard J.D., is fully aware and cognizant the specific intent & purpose of university tenure - its raison d'etre - is to explicitly not hold tenured profs 'accountable'. Rather, it is to allow them intellectual freedom. Unabashed, untethered, intellectual freedom.

So, why then would DeSantis do this?

Obviously, for the same reason he went after Disney, the same way he went after kids' school books, the same way he's now going after university education. He seems hell-bent on indoctrinating the citizens of his state to his & his party's personal ideologies. And the more he's allowed to impress his will upon the good citizens of Florida, the more brazen & assertive he appears to become.

Florida's regressing before our eyes, my friends. This would be our 'future', should DeSantis ever become our nation's leader.

--

The DeSantis culture attacks just keep on coming . . .
Is this Florida crap really this crazy out of control or is he/they just getting more press than other states?

Do you guys "feel it" for lack of a better term? It just seems like idiotic after idiotic- from way over here, almost staged.

Serious question from outside the States.
 

Bodi

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It's extremely difficult to take away tenure.
How is it even possible? The State can not dictate to a non-State run university how to pay its employees.
 

nota bene

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Mixed feelings.

On the one hand, having been afflicted with tenured professors who acted like jackasses before, I am not overly fond of the institution.

On the other hand, I'm not sure this is a Gov issue, unless Gov is the professor's employer.
In the case of a state university, it is. State universities answer to the legislature.
 

nota bene

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How is it even possible? The State can not dictate to a non-State run university how to pay its employees.
It's possible. Difficult but possible.
 

Goshin

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In the case of a state university, it is. State universities answer to the legislature.

Ah. Well have at it then.


This really happened:

Professor walks into class my first day of college. This is his opening monologue:

"To be clear: I am tenured. That means I cannot be fired.
If you pass this course, I get paid. If you don't pass this course, I get paid.
Therefore I don't give a shit if you pass or not. That's your problem."

Jerk.
 

Chomsky

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There has been a movement away from tenure for quite some time.




I'm heading out soon, so will have to get to your links later; thanks for taking the time to supply them.

I always was a "classicist" at heart, even though my higher education was more specifically career oriented. Still, I tried to fit-in as much liberal & classical studies as I could during my undergrad, because I really love the stuff!

As such, I fully support tenure & intellectual freedom, believing it has an important roll in moving our collective body of knowledge forward, and by extension moving civilization forward.

We don't need any more Galileo's . . .
 

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Florida has become draconian.

I've long been a champion of eliminating tenure. There are other ways to ensure job security for faculty. One of the biggest weaknesses for tenure is that a university invests in employees for 5-7 years and then fires those who don't acquire tenure (which is a politically fraught process) and starts anew recruiting for a new employee and waiting for that person to get up to speed. Some of those fired deserve it; others are excellent teachers. In my 30 yr career in higher ed at 2 universities, I've seen more faculty rest on their laurels after achieving tenure than I've seen them retain their zeal for teaching. Research becomes their focus, TAs take on the task of teaching, and students do not get the advantage of working with the subject matter expert until their jr/sr year if at all (this varies somewhat depending on the size of the school).

It took me two years to fire a tenured professor with a long history of sexual harassment. The dept. dean and the provost fought me on the firing because "it would damage his reputation and he's tenured" as though achieving tenure raised a person to the level of a god. No thought given to the hit the university's reputation took because it protected a predator for so long. His tenure took precedence over human decency. That is just one example of how tenure goes awry,
 

nota bene

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Ah. Well have at it then.


This really happened:

Professor walks into class my first day of college. This is his opening monologue:

"To be clear: I am tenured. That means I cannot be fired.
If you pass this course, I get paid. If you don't pass this course, I get paid.
Therefore I don't give a shit if you pass or not. That's your problem."

Jerk.
Plenty of 'em too, sigh.

As I say, it's very difficult to get rid of someone with tenure, and this is one reason to criticize tenure. Too often, for example, once tenure is achieved, the prof becomes deadwood.

But I'll let you in on a little secret: Almost every institution has a little clause in the employment contract, the dreaded "other duties as assigned." This could, theoretically, mean being assigned to clean bathrooms.
 

Chomsky

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Yep, and it’s extremely difficult to get rid of public employee unions. That does not make having either a good idea.

But tenure & unionism are two vastly different things, implemented for much different reasons.
 

nota bene

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Florida has become draconian.

I've long been a champion of eliminating tenure. There are other ways to ensure job security for faculty. One of the biggest weaknesses for tenure is that a university invests in employees for 5-7 years and then fires those who don't acquire tenure (which is a politically fraught process) and starts anew recruiting for a new employee and waiting for that person to get up to speed. Some of those fired deserve it; others are excellent teachers. In my 30 yr career in higher ed at 2 universities, I've seen more faculty rest on their laurels after achieving tenure than I've seen them retain their zeal for teaching. Research becomes their focus, TAs take on the task of teaching, and students do not get the advantage of working with the subject matter expert until their jr/sr year if at all (this varies somewhat depending on the size of the school).

It took me two years to fire a tenured professor with a long history of sexual harassment. The dept. dean and the provost fought me on the firing because "it would damage his reputation and he's tenured" as though achieving tenure raised a person to the level of a god. No thought given to the hit the university's reputation took because it protected a predator for so long. His tenure took precedence over human decency. That is just one example of how tenure goes awry,
I will affirm this; I've seen it for myself.

And I will also affirm that too often profs are punished for focusing on teaching rather than on publishing.
 

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Sounds vaguely familiar; haven't many right leaning professors or those not sufficiently woke or those that said some non-woke comment in a post fifteen years ago being denied tenure or have their tenure revoked? The left has got so used to screwing over right leaners but it's a different story when conservatives fight back.
Agreed.

The left has gotten so used to being in power and unquestioned, i.e. academia, at the slightest pushback, getting a small taste of what they've been dishing out, they squeal like stuck piglets.

How many conservatives are there in the university's sociology department? Talk about a lack of tolerance and a lack of 'diversity'. :rolleyes:
 

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--

Right on the heels of the Disney takeover, comes news of yet another cultural attack by DeSantis & his Republican legislature.



I think we can assume a guy with a Yale B.A. and a Harvard J.D., is fully aware and cognizant the specific intent & purpose of university tenure - its raison d'etre - is to explicitly not hold tenured profs 'accountable'. Rather, it is to allow them intellectual freedom. Unabashed, untethered, intellectual freedom.

So, why then would DeSantis do this?

Obviously, for the same reason he went after Disney, the same way he went after kids' school books, the same way he's now going after university education. He seems hell-bent on indoctrinating the citizens of his state to his & his party's personal ideologies. And the more he's allowed to impress his will upon the good citizens of Florida, the more brazen & assertive he appears to become.

Florida's regressing before our eyes, my friends. This would be our 'future', should DeSantis ever become our nation's leader.

--

The DeSantis culture attacks just keep on coming . . .
Turkey, here we come.
 

Plasmaball

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There has been a movement away from tenure for quite some time.



If this was private business you guys would flip your ever loving shit over this, but since it's education and clearly you all hate education you are OK with it.

I hate what this country is becoming because half of it is being led by ****ing morons amd the other half too stupid to combat them.
 

Lycanthrope

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Banning books, attacking the intelligentsia.

Sure, maybe it's all a torch and bonfire pony show for the Trumplicans he'll rely on for re-election, but damn.
 

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And I will also affirm that too often profs are punished for focusing on teaching rather than on publishing.
But one reason my hair turned gray long before it should have. Listening to dept. faculty diss each other because they disagreed with either the subject or content of their colleagues' work was like watching toddlers fight over the last cookie. Meanwhile enrollment in their classes dropped.
 

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Ah. Well have at it then.


This really happened:

Professor walks into class my first day of college. This is his opening monologue:

"To be clear: I am tenured. That means I cannot be fired.
If you pass this course, I get paid. If you don't pass this course, I get paid.
Therefore I don't give a shit if you pass or not. That's your problem."

Jerk.

Could you be mischaracterizing or misunderstanding the instructor's intent?

Recently students have become aware universities are forcing instructors to grade on a specific distribution of grades. IOW instructors must give-out so many A's, So many B's, etc.

This instructor may be warning the class they will be individually held accountable by their specific performance in relation to the required material, not to their ranking among their class peers, and not dependent upon a distribution curve saving them.

If so, then I applaud the instructor.
 

Chomsky

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I figured that Republicans would eventually find a more dangerously authoritarian asshole than mango. Looks like they might have.

His real danger, over Trump's, is he's extremely well educated and intelligent, and IMO has the potential to more efficiently & effectively implement legislation or orders.
 
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