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Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

Would you support a flat tax system instead of our current progressive one?

  • Yes

    Votes: 12 37.5%
  • No

    Votes: 18 56.3%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 2 6.3%

  • Total voters
    32
Because there was NO INFLATION then, I lived it, worked it and paid taxes during that period of time.

Except there was, and it was quite high in 1981 and 1982. But hey, I'm sure your memory is a more reliable source than statistics.
Historical Inflation data from 1914 to the present

Conservative said:
Why 2005 dollars?

OMG. I already told you that you can pick ANY year, as long as it's in CONSTANT dollars rather than CURRENT dollars. OK, I'm seriously done. It's obvious you haven't the faintest understanding of economics, and wear your ignorance as a badge of honor. So there really isn't any point in my trying to educate you.
 
no, there's not. with them, increased productivity happens. without them, it doesn't.



do i really have to do this?

Mega, how does one make money. ? specifically, how does one generate profit?

they also tend to be net tax payers

ie more productive than net tax consumers

but no lib is ever able to answer what extra benefits do the rich actually get from the government that those who are net tax consumers don't get
 
since i think it would be instructive to the topic at hand, i think i'll post more of the article cited above:

In studying the affluent, I found a pattern that the wealthy follow. It is more often the result of planning, hard work, perseverance, and self-discipline that determines who become wealthy. The factors compiled here are summarized from the research done by Thomas Stanley Ph.D. on over 1100 actual millionaires (many are multi-millionaires) in the U.S. today.

1) Live Well Below Your Means

Don’t be fooled. The ‘average’ millionaire doesn’t look like a millionaire! The key word here is frugal, frugal, and frugal. The typical person is America is a consumptionist. It’s in our blood. We work hard, make money, and spend it well. Not the typical millionaire! They play great defense (saving and investing) as well as offense (making money). Just like in football – great offense is exciting…but great defense wins games. An interesting note: Millionaires on average claimed their spouses were as frugal or more than they were. It’s a family affair: Sacrifice high consumption today, for financial freedom tomorrow.

2) Spend Your Time, Energy, and Money in Ways that Build Wealth.

Although the road to Millionaire’s Ville takes a frugal path, they pay well for training and advice. Do investment planning. Go to seminars. Hire good attorneys, tax accountants, mentors and coaches. Learn to identify and invest in assets that produce income. The wealthy spend money when the investment will protect and grow their assets. Millionaires also know the details: How much is spent each month and on food, clothing, and shelter. The non-wealthy say they don’t have time to plan, while the wealthy make time to plan. But here’s the shocker: The average millionaire spends 8.5 hours per month planning, while the non-affluent spend 4.5 hours or less planning. How can 4 more hours per week impact your future? Make it happen and the odds are in your favor of joining the truly wealthy!

3) Choose Financial Independence over Displaying High Social Status

The wealthy run highly efficient operations both in business and at home. Most live in average neighborhoods, and drive average cars. They’re not interested in keeping up with the Jones’ – because the Jones’ aren’t financially free. It takes lots of energy to consume big mortgages, change homes every few years, buy the most recent model cars, and wear the latest fashions. The wealthy drive typically American made cars! Japanese cars come in 2nd place; half of these are Toyota Camrys. Yes, significant value per dollar is the key here. The Millionaire’s Motto: You aren’t what you drive. The status cars – Lexus, BMW’s, Mercedes? At 6.4% or less per each brand.

4) Don’t Accept Economic Support from Your Parents once Outside the Home

Sounds painful doesn’t it? It’s a fact that has taught the wealthy how to earn, keep, and invest money. Parents of the wealthy do not, or cannot, provide “economic outpatient care”. The results are clear: The more dollars the adult children receive, the fewer they accumulate. Those who are given less are motivated to accumulate more on their own merits. An amazing fact: 80% of millionaires are first generation millionaires; they have made their money on their own, in their lifetime. Many of these folks have been immigrants to the U.S., starting out with minimal cash on hand. Work hard to learn and generate wealth—it CAN be done, and happens in America every day.

5) Teach your children to be economically self-sufficient to foster a “Wealth Mind-Set”

Provide your children fish and they will eat for a day. Teach them to fish and they will eat for a lifetime. As you might guess, children who grew up to be affluent, who had affluent parents, were taught to be disciplined and intentional with their money. Robert Kyosaki, author of Rich Dad Poor Dad, didn’t cave in when his son asked for a car at 16 years old, even when the neighbor kids were being given cars by their parents. He gave his son $3000, and a subscription to the Wall Street Journal, and a few books on investing in the stock market. Now Rich Dad’s son watches more CNN than MTV. He has the motivation, and is getting an education that will provide him for a lifetime, well beyond his first car purchase.

6) Become Proficient in Targeting Market Opportunities

Find your niche, like the wealthy do. Follow where the money flows, and look for specialized opportunities. Why not target the wealthy themselves? Yes, they are frugal, especially first generation self-made wealthy. BUT…they spend openly on investing in themselves and their families. Investment advice and services, business training, software, tax advice, legal, medical, dental, health, real estate, and education are top priorities. They pay well for products and services that protect and grow their assets. Remember the majority of the wealthy are self-employed entrepreneurs. Followed by medical professionals and business executives.

7) Choose the Right Occupation

You now have a good idea of what the affluent do. 20% are retirees. Of the remaining 80%, most of these are self-made businessmen and women. Keep in mind that entrepreneurs are 4 times more likely to become millionaires than those who work for others. There is no one business, or group of business more likely to breed millionaire-hood. Some are lecturers, others medical professionals, farmers, small manufacturers, and corner mom and pop stores. The most important predictor is the characteristics of the owner, than the type of business. It’s the winning combination of skills and attitude that hit’s the wealth target.

NOTE: The affluent attribute being honest with all people as the most important characteristic in their businesses, tied with being well disciplined. The vast majority of the wealthy were not stellar students, or born into money. They have made it through following a few simple principles and being consistent.
 
they also tend to be net tax payers

ie more productive than net tax consumers

but no lib is ever able to answer what extra benefits do the rich actually get from the government that those who are net tax consumers don't get

no, they can only argue that the rich do more with those benefits. as though somehow the army protected them Extra Special. :roll:
 
no, they can only argue that the rich do more with those benefits. as though somehow the army protected them Extra Special. :roll:

its a myth the class warfare operatives use to justify confiscatory tax rates. its like claiming the A student at state U was GIVEN those grades over the flunk out or the barely passing student

in reality all were "given" the same thing and should pay the same tuition
 
Kandahar;1059054686]Except there was, and it was quite high in 1981 and 1982. But hey, I'm sure your memory is a more reliable source than statistics.
Historical Inflation data from 1914 to the present

Inflation occurred at the end of the Carter years and beginning of the Reagan years, inflation continued to drop after the Bush tax cuts. I am still waiting for you to explain to me how income tax revenue almost doubled after the Reagan 10-10-5% tax cuts? Ever hear of the misery index? Look it up and follow it by year.

OMG. I already told you that you can pick ANY year, as long as it's in CONSTANT dollars rather than CURRENT dollars. OK, I'm seriously done. It's obvious you haven't the faintest understanding of economics, and wear your ignorance as a badge of honor. So there really isn't any point in my trying to educate you.


You are absolutely correct, I ran a 200 million dollar business and retired in 2004 at the age of 57. I know absolutely nothing about how to run a business, inflation, productivity, personal behavior, or how to do research. Stop buying the BS you are being taught and get out into the real world. Fact is tax cuts grew govt. revenue and that wasn't due to inflation, it was due to people keeping more of what they earned, spending, saving, investing that money which helped create almost 20 million new taxpayers.

Before educating me, get some real life experience and educate yourself.
 
its a myth the class warfare operatives use to justify confiscatory tax rates. its like claiming the A student at state U was GIVEN those grades over the flunk out or the barely passing student

Except YOU literally do this.
How so? I saw it many a time when I was in college. Rich black kids goofing off because they knew they could get into top grad schools with much lower GPAs then us white boys. The black guys who made top grades were respected by everyone except the goof offs who called them "uncle tom's or "acting white"

Oh the irony...
 
no, there's not. with them, increased productivity happens. without them, it doesn't.

I disagree. If they weren't there, someone else would take their place. There is nothing special about them. Its the resource they control that's important.

do i really have to do this?

Mega, how does one make money. ? specifically, how does one generate profit?

Multiple ways. One can become wealthy by being born with advantages, winning the lottery, winning a lawsuit, being successful in a business, etc.

However, you are ignoring a very important point. Society is far more than economics. There are cultural, socialist, artistic, familial, leadership, political, moral, and probably other influences that build our society as well. By only talking about wealth, you are not giving the full picture of what I am talking about. So, you can argue economics all you want, but it really doesn't mean much as everything works to set the stage where people can prosper in this society.
 
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Adam Smith, who wrote in The Wealth of Nations:
The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. A tax upon house-rents, therefore, would in general fall heaviest upon the rich; and in this sort of inequality there would not, perhaps, be anything very unreasonable. It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.

Progressive tax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Adam Smith was an nut who lived with his mother.
 
I am a part of an advanced society and I help to maintain that society. The existence of this advanced society created the situation that allowed you to make that dollar. Therefore I am at least partially responsible for you earning it.

that is the most out there statement I have ever heard... 'I exist, therefore you owe me' is essentially what you just said.
 
I'm no expert, but from everything I've read, a flat tax system seems fair, and should not adversly affect tax revenue.

Economic Advantages of a Flat Tax

I'm against a flat tax. A national sales tax simply won't raise enough tax revenue needed to pay for all the government expenditures required of the United States as a world superpower.
 
I'm against a flat tax. A national sales tax simply won't raise enough tax revenue needed to pay for all the government expenditures required of the United States as a world superpower.

Have you checked the budget of the United States to verify that statement? How much of the 3.8 trillion dollar 2010 budget was defense to pay for the "expenditures required of the United States as a world superpower?"
 
Have you checked the budget of the United States to verify that statement? How much of the 3.8 trillion dollar 2010 budget was defense to pay for the "expenditures required of the United States as a world superpower?"

I didn't mean just defense spending. I also meant health care spending, infrastructure spending, spending on education at the elementary, high school, and collegel and university levels, spending for business inititatives, spending for scientific research, spending on farm subsidies, and that doesn't include law enforcement on the federal level either.

There's more to being a superpower than just having a strong military.
 
I didn't mean just defense spending. I also meant health care spending, infrastructure spending, spending on education at the elementary, high school, and collegel and university levels, spending for business inititatives, spending for scientific research, spending on farm subsidies, and that doesn't include law enforcement on the federal level either.

There's more to being a superpower than just having a strong military.

How much of what you listed here is state, local, or private business responsibility? you think funding healthcare is a Federal taxpayer responsibility or a local and state responsibility? How about education, aren't schools funded by local property taxes and not federal income taxes? Much of what you have listed really has nothing to do with being a world super power as we have been a world super power for decades now without most of what you have listed.
 
I didn't mean just defense spending. I also meant health care spending, infrastructure spending, spending on education at the elementary, high school, and collegel and university levels, spending for business inititatives, spending for scientific research, spending on farm subsidies, and that doesn't include law enforcement on the federal level either.

There's more to being a superpower than just having a strong military.

actually the FairTax people have done some pretty good work demonstrating that their tax proposal would be revenue neutral. i have seen 'debunking' attempts done, and several studies are usually cited which measure a sales tax on only certain goods, as opposed to all goods at the retail level.

if i may suggest a study of the matter
 
I disagree. If they weren't there, someone else would take their place

no, they would not. as much as we have of it, wealth is finite. if they removed their wealth (money) from investments, then investments in our economy would go down by a corresponding amount, and productivity would decrease accordingly.

the only entity about which this argument can be made is government, because government (rightly speaking), does not have it's own wealth; it simply has others' wealth which it appropriates through taxation; and had it not taxed or borrowed those funds they would still be in the economy.

There is nothing special about them. Its the resource they control that's important.

there's nothing special about workers; it's the labour and their thought processes which are important.

but there is, in fact, something special about the rich.

namely, they are mostly small-business owners; which provide most of the new jobs in this economy, and much of the innovation as well. the rich are generally superior in their benefits to the rest of us (whom they employ) in society.

Multiple ways. One can become wealthy by being born with advantages, winning the lottery, winning a lawsuit, being successful in a business, etc

okay, you're going far too broad there.

specifically, one makes profit by generating a better profit at more convenience for lower prices than the competition; in other words; one makes profit by helping people. Wal-Mart, for example, saves the average poor family thousands of dollars a year; which is why they are so very successful. it is nearly impossible to make money (outside of outright theft) in today's economy without benefiting others.

However, you are ignoring a very important point. Society is far more than economics.

yes, but economics are what we are currently discussing; specifically, taxation, and what taxation funds.

There are cultural, socialist, artistic, familial, leadership, political, moral, and probably other influences that build our society as well.

not sure how "socialist" influences are supposed to be benificial. however, when you get into non-economic societal influences, that is where you typically find the rich overrepresented as well.

By only talking about wealth, you are not giving the full picture of what I am talking about. So, you can argue economics all you want, but it really doesn't mean much as everything works to set the stage where people can prosper in this society.

appealing to subjective standards in order to win an objective argument isn't much of a stance.
 
How much of what you listed here is state, local, or private business responsibility? you think funding healthcare is a Federal taxpayer responsibility or a local and state responsibility? How about education, aren't schools funded by local property taxes and not federal income taxes? Much of what you have listed really has nothing to do with being a world super power as we have been a world super power for decades now without most of what you have listed.

These past decades we haven't had any federal dollars pay for Medicare or Medicaid? These past decades we haven't had any federal dollars pay to build, maintain, and expand the Interstate Highway System? These past decades we haven't had federal dollars invested in the public education system? Or in the public college system? Or in universities? Research into the internet hasn't led to a more educated population, which we use in various ways to maintain our position as a power on the world stage? Hasn't the infrastructure for high-speed internet been paid for by the federal government?
 
These past decades we haven't had any federal dollars pay for Medicare or Medicaid? These past decades we haven't had any federal dollars pay to build, maintain, and expand the Interstate Highway System? These past decades we haven't had federal dollars invested in the public education system? Or in the public college system? Or in universities? Research into the internet hasn't led to a more educated population, which we use in various ways to maintain our position as a power on the world stage? Hasn't the infrastructure for high-speed internet been paid for by the federal government?

Where are you getting your information? Medicare is paid for on every paycheck, Medicaid is a state program!

Every time you buy a gallon of gasoline you pay federal and state excise taxes of around 70 cents a gallon that is supposed to go for highways and bridges.

Federal Dollars were never supposed to go to the state school systems so where did you believe that education was a Federal issue?

Sounds to me like you buy a lot of rhetoric and don't do a lot of research. Where are you getting this information?

The United States has been a world power for decades without the kind of federal spending we have today so why now, why do you want to federalize state and local issues?
 
Again, you are hanging your entire argument on tax rates and not dollars collected. Fact is the Rich are paying a lower rate but higher dollars today under the Bush tax cuts and that is reality.

no, I'm not. You just have that fixated in your head and are not following what is being placed before you.
 
no, I'm not. You just have that fixated in your head and are not following what is being placed before you.

I have a very good idea what is being placed before me especially by you. The fact remains that it is the taxpayer's money before it goes to the govt. and tax cuts are not an expense to the govt.

Further the fact remains that according to the IRS the rich are paying more in actual dollars now in taxes with the Bush tax cuts therefore destroying the liberal argument that the rich benefited from the lower rates. Also the number of lower income individuals not paying taxes has increased AFTER the Bush tax cuts.
 
I have a very good idea what is being placed before me especially by you. The fact remains that it is the taxpayer's money before it goes to the govt. and tax cuts are not an expense to the govt.

Further the fact remains that according to the IRS the rich are paying more in actual dollars now in taxes with the Bush tax cuts therefore destroying the liberal argument that the rich benefited from the lower rates. Also the number of lower income individuals not paying taxes has increased AFTER the Bush tax cuts.

I actually wish you did. I really do. But you have completely skipped the point of what was posted.
 
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