Flag-burning amendment (1 Viewer)

[Kandahar]

The proposed amendment to the Constitution to ban flag-burning has passed the House of Representatives by the necessary 2/3 majority. It is dangerously close to achieving the same 2/3 majority in the Senate (even normally sensible people like Evan Bayh and John McCain support it). Then it would be sent to the states for ratification. Therefore, it's time for some outrage.

Is there anyone here who actually supports raping the Bill of Rights for such a trivial non-issue? I'd like to hear someone defend the indefensible. Why should this not just be another offensive way to express freedom of speech? Flag-burners aren't inciting panic, aren't encouraging people to commit crimes, aren't slandering anyone, and aren't really doing anything that anyone has to be concerned about unless they choose to watch. So why should they be forcibly silenced by the government?

It's not like this is even a big problem. How many flags are burned in protest annually, nationwide? I don't have the statistic, but my hunch is that you could count the number on one hand.

 

[mpg]

I'm against this amendment, but this issue is far from trivial.

 

[Kandahar]

I'm against this amendment, but this issue is far from trivial.

Why not? Is flag-burning a major problem in this country that somehow threatens the country?

 

[PeteEU]

Funny... does such an amendment also cover writing or drawing on the flag?.. how about wearing USA underwear or bra?.... Personaly I would call having a pair of USA boxers on more insulting than burning a flag.. but hey if people dont think taking a fart or crap on a flag is insulting then why not

 

[dragonslayer]

Why not? Is flag-burning a major problem in this country that somehow threatens the country?

while I don't care to see flag burning, I don't see it as that important of an issue as to deserve a constitutional admendment. Every year, 15 or 20 flags get burned by American citizens for different reasons. How does this threaten the United States? Never has yet and it never will.

This is just one of those distraction, and Spin issues that the Right wing folk and media want us to concentrate on instead of Bush's Little War and the casualties, the economy, the war on terrorism. We need to get out of Iraq and start fighting the war on terrorism.

I read bout the possible threat to the Sears Tower today. Is it Real? or is it Bush spin and distraction? The Government lies and cons us so much, I have a hard time believing anything they say.

We are going to start hearing about terrorist threats more frequently as we get closer to Mid Term Elections.

 

[Stace]

Funny... does such an amendment also cover writing or drawing on the flag?.. how about wearing USA underwear or bra?.... Personaly I would call having a pair of USA boxers on more insulting than burning a flag.. but hey if people dont think taking a fart or crap on a flag is insulting then why not

It's beyond me why manufacturers even make such clothing....especially seeing as how it's against U.S. Code Title 4, Chapter 1:

The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker's desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general.

It's not really supposed to be used in advertisements, either.

But most people just don't care enough to actually educate themselves on the proper use/display/etc. of the flag. They just think they're being patriotic by having one, or by having clothing that's got the flag on it, or even a bumper sticker, which is also technically wrong, as " The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way."

Anyway. All of that aside, I'm against any amendment that bans flag burning.....even though it's an extremely crass thing to do, it still falls under freedom of speech.

 

[erasamus snoggle]

The U.S. does not need to amend the Constitution over the flag burning issue. Many of us have served in the military to preserve rights - free speech among them - and burning the flag, as reprehensible as it may seem, falls under that broad umbrella.

 

[jamesrage]

The proposed amendment to the Constitution to ban flag-burning has passed the House of Representatives by the necessary 2/3 majority. It is dangerously close to achieving the same 2/3 majority in the Senate (even normally sensible people like Evan Bayh and John McCain support it). Then it would be sent to the states for ratification. Therefore, it's time for some outrage.

Is there anyone here who actually supports raping the Bill of Rights for such a trivial non-issue? I'd like to hear someone defend the indefensible. Why should this not just be another offensive way to express freedom of speech? Flag-burners aren't inciting panic, aren't encouraging people to commit crimes, aren't slandering anyone, and aren't really doing anything that anyone has to be concerned about unless they choose to watch. So why should they be forcibly silenced by the government?

It's not like this is even a big problem. How many flags are burned in protest annually, nationwide? I don't have the statistic, but my hunch is that you could count the number on one hand.

I think those who burn our flag in a disrespectful manner should be tossed out of this country and into some **** hole third world middle eastern country. I think it should be illegal to burn our national symbol in a disrepectful manner.

It's illegal to burn money but not the US flag?

 

[jamesrage]

On a seperate note I do think this is nothing more than a pathetic attempt after trying to sell us out on other issues to try to regain voter trust.Many of them attempted to sell us out by trying to give illegals amnesty,many of them sold us out on KAFTA,and our ports.They hope that if they can pander a issue at the last minute that most of us sane Americans want then we will forgive and forget when it comes time to vote.

 

[Diogenes]

Is there anyone here who actually supports raping the Bill of Rights for such a trivial non-issue? I'd like to hear someone defend the indefensible. Why should this not just be another offensive way to express freedom of speech? Flag-burners aren't inciting panic, aren't encouraging people to commit crimes, aren't slandering anyone, and aren't really doing anything that anyone has to be concerned about unless they choose to watch. So why should they be forcibly silenced by the government?

There is no need for the amendment.

The SCOTUS opinions for the case that came up a few years ago make interesting reading. The current rule is that the limit of free speech is the immediate onset of public disorder (i.e., you can't yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater). The majority opinions observed that the incident, which occurred at a convention of limp-wristed politicians (Republicans, as I recall), produced no such disorder and was thus exempt from prosecution. The clear implication of the opinions was that if the event had occurred in a more patriotic group, perhaps a VFW or American Legion convention, where the perpetrator would have been stomped into a grease spot before anyone called 911, then it would have been the perpetrator's fault and his estate would have been liable for any damages. Or, in the unlikely event that he survived the "immediate onset of public disorder," he would have been liable to prosecution for inciting a riot.

The Bill Of Rights protects offensive people from prosecution; it does not protect them from the consequences of the riot they incite.

 

[Goobieman]

Personally, I don't care if someone burns the flag as 'free speech'. Their actions speak for temselves.

That said, I will thank those that are trying to amend the Constitution for their efforts to -amend- the conatitution, rather than simply -ignore- it, like so many are so happy to do.

 

[Navy Pride]

As with the gay marriage issue I hate to see the constitution amended for a reason like this but sadly I see no other way to protect what to me is a very sacred piece of cloth that many men have given their life to protect so I reluctantly voted yes...........

 

[Deegan]

I voted yes because I feel strongly about what the flag represents, and I see no reason for allowing public demonstrations of it's destruction. If you want to masturbate in your backyard while burning one, fine, but to do it in public, you should be held accountable for that treason. I think that the flag stands for freedom, and to burn it publically, indicates you don't deserve these freedoms, and you should be either jailed or have your citizenship revoked.

 

[Deegan]

Come on man! Read over your argument again, and see if you don't have a problem with it.

You think the flag represents freedom, and if one exercizes their freedom which the flag represents in burning that flag, they've proven that they don't deserve that freedom? What?

Dude, I think the flag is extremely important, and I would spit in my best friend's face, without hesitation, if I ever saw him burning a flag. That being said, you cannot miss the irony in the idea that the flag stands for freedom, so we should abridge those freedoms to protect a symbol of those freedoms? Like, I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but it's ****ing ridiculous.

Well........I knew that my opinion would not be popular, but it's mine all the same. I don't think it's asking too much to tell people not to burn our flag in public, you may be angry at someone in the government, or some other authority figure, but burning the flag is treason in my opinion, and I don't believe anyone has the right to treason. You don't have the freedom to do many things in public, you can't even smoke a cigar for cris sake, why should you be able to fill my lungs with your burning flag?

 

[Deegan]

lol, well you know my opinions on other things like smoking in public, so I'm not constrained by the hypocricies that liberals are

You haven't addressed the point that you're sacrificing what a symbol stands for to protect the symbol itself.

Not at all, I acknowledge that many things are not acceptable in public, why not this? Answer this question, and you may change my mind, but I don't think burning this countries flag in public is a freedom anyone should have, just as I don't think you should be able to have sex in public. I was probably a bit harsh with the punishment, but a fine at the very least, would be appropriate IMHO.

 

[Captain America]

Hell yeah. Forget about immigration, the war in Iraq, education, gangs, and helthcare. We have more important things to attend to first like all of those flag burners out there in the streets! Look! There goes one now! :roll:

 

[Deegan]

Hell yeah. Forget about immigration, the war in Iraq, education, gangs, and helthcare. We have more important things to attend to first like all of those flag burners out there in the streets! Look! There goes one now! :roll:

Are you suggesting we not work on the peoples business, just because there are other important issues going on?

That does not make sense sir, you can do better then that, heck, even Mrs. Clinton agree's with me.

 

[TheNextEra]

What's ironic is people getting upset over the burning of an American Flag that is usually made in some other country like China. :lol:

Me personally, I have a problem with flag burning, but I see it as freedom of speech and the flag they are burning does not belong to me (i.e. I didn't buy it). I look at it like they are burning their own property.

Now if some yahoo tries to burn my personal collection of U.S. flags that are in my own home, they may not live to tell about what they were going to do.

 

[hipsterdufus]

Not raising the minimum wage makes it harder for poor gay people to buy American flags and burn them to stay warm...:roll:

 

[Captain America]

Are you suggesting we not work on the peoples business, just because there are other important issues going on?

That does not make sense sir, you can do better then that, heck, even Mrs. Clinton agree's with me.

Good sir, that IS the peoples business. I am more affected by healthcare costs than I am flag burners.

How many people here are having problems with all those flagburners in your yard? How many here would prefer better and less expensive healthcare.

This is yet another trumped up, wedge, non-issue in my opinion initiated by the right to divert our attentions off the main issues that confront us.

Yet another attempt to divide the nation. They should be ashamed.

But I pity da fool that tries to burn a flag in front of me. I don't need an amendment to kick their arse.

 

[Deegan]

What's ironic is people getting upset over the burning of an American Flag that is usually made in some other country like China. :lol:

Me personally, I have a problem with flag burning, but I see it as freedom of speech and the flag they are burning does not belong to me (i.e. I didn't buy it). I look at it like they are burning their own property.

Now if some yahoo tries to burn my personal collection of U.S. flags that are in my own home, they may not live to tell about what they were going to do.

What gets me is this "freedom of speech" argument, what "speech" is invovled in burning a flag, and what have you accomplished except to have taken your rage out on a symbol that does not deserve your anger? We have burning laws all over this country, can't burn in the city limits, can't burn here, can't burn there, if you want facts, there they are. You can't threaten to kill the president either, perhaps we should change that law to, since that is actual speech, and may very well be appropriate to some, burning this countries flag is not.

 

[TheNextEra]

I don't need an amendment to kick their arse.

No, but you might need a good lawyer since it would be assualt. :lol:

I'm not saying I would blame you for doing it, just saying you gotta be prepared to deal with the consequences. :2wave:

 

[Deegan]

Good sir, that IS the peoples business. I am more affected by healthcare costs than I am flag burners.

How many people here are having problems with all those flagburners in your yard? How many here would prefer better and less expensive healthcare.

This is yet another trumped up, wedge, non-issue in my opinion initiated by the right to divert our attentions off the main issues that confront us.

Yet another attempt to divide the nation. They should be ashamed.

But I pity da fool that tries to burn a flag in front of me. I don't need an amendment to kick their arse.

I want to divide the nation, I do, those who want the flag to be burned, and those who don't. I would hope that my representatives can walk and chew bubble gum, I think they can, but appreciate that you don't agree.

 

[TheNextEra]

What gets me is this "freedom of speech" argument, what "speech" is invovled in burning a flag, and what have you accomplished except to have taken your rage out on a symbol that does not deserve your anger?

It is freedom of speech to show that you are not in agreement with the country and it is a person's way of showing it. And frankly, even though I don't like flag burning, I would rather someone take their rage out on a flag than a human being.

We have burning laws all over this country, can't burn in the city limits, can't burn here, can't burn there, if you want facts, there they are. You can't threaten to kill the president either, perhaps we should change that law to, since that is actual speech, and may very well be appropriate to some, burning this countries flag is not.

Ok first of all, you cannot just burn an American flag wherever you want in public. Not sure why people even bring this up. To burn a flag, you first have to have permission via a permit or law that allows it in the area that you are going to be burning something out in public or in a controlled manner. This permission is given by the state usually in the form of places where you can burn things or by special permit.

If you just decide to go to some park and start burning a flag wherever you want, you will find yourself in jail or fined.

We are talking about people that are burning flags, via permission or by private property.

 

[Deegan]

lol, just because I'm not supposed to have sex in public doesn't mean I'm not able to

Your question is difficult for me to answer, because I disagree with most of the laws restricting what we can do in public (like, as you mentioned earlier, bans on cigar smoking).

But I'll give it a shot.

The reason other laws that say what you can and cannot do in public are allowed to stay is because they serve some other purpose other than just supressing expression.

Yet the Flag Burning ammendment would serve 1 purpose, and 1 purpose only, and that is to supress expression, and even more dangerously, to supress anti-government expression. This is contradictory to what this nation, and thus what this flag stands for.

If you can't get your point across without burning a flag, a flag that has nothing to do with your argument, unless your argument is that this country should burn, then you have problems, and you should probably be locked up, or deported.