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FISA Judges say Bush within the law

Stinger

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FISA JUDGES SAY BUSH WITHIN LAW
By Brian DeBose
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

Next time you hear Dorgan or Reid or Pelosi or any of the mainstream media lie about it being "beyond a doubt that Bush knowingly broke the law" as far as the NSA foreign surveillance, here's some authoritative views.

A panel of former Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court judges
yesterday told members of the Senate Judiciary Committee that President Bush
did not act illegally when he created by executive order a wiretapping
program conducted by the National Security Agency (NSA).

The five judges testifying before the committee said they could not
speak specifically to the NSA listening program without being briefed
on it, but that a Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act does not
override the president's constitutional authority to spy on suspected
international agents under executive order............................

Judge Kornblum said before the 1978 FISA law, foreign surveillance
was done by executive order and the law itself was altered by the
orders of Presidents Ford, Carter and Reagan.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20060329-120346-1901r.htm
 
Stinger said:
Not surprising AT ALL and not surprising that the NYT totally misrepresented the story.

Stinger, I read the NYT article yesterday. I did not conclude that the author was saying that the judges said that Bush had violated the Constitution or broke rules. In fact, I got the impression that they didn't speak as to their opinion on the NSA spying because, frankly, it would be unethical! When I saw the article, I hoped it was going to say that Bush violated the Constitution, but when I read it, I thought, "Darn." It's funny how the three news media that attack the New York Times's article are all total right-wing media. LOL

I just posted this elsewhere but will post it again here. I am just not buying that the judges gave approval of the program. Here's the Kansas City Star's interpretation of the hearing, and it seems to have been more aligned with the New York Times than the ridiculous article from the Washington Times. LOL

 
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I think you might want to consider the source. I mean the Kansas City Star probably is a Liberal rag.
 
aps said:
Ha ha ha ha. Now that I "touched it," none of the cons want to respond. I love it when I win an argument (or at least stump the other side).

Have you checked the other thread of late? I responded to your post as follows:

Actually, these are former FISA court judges. I suppose if former Supremes can opine about various things, former FISA judges can certainly express their opinions as to the legality of the NSA surveillance program.

The transcript comes from a subscription service, so I don't if it will available in total, but there is a partial here.

BTW, I wonder if that 'King George' comment wasn't an allusion to the English King George of old, not the guy in the WH right whom you obviously adore.

BTW redux, the Kansas City Star simply picked up the AP version of the story and printed it. About as in-depth as snow in Miami in August. For pretty good analysis, including fairly extensive transcripts, go to Powerline or NationalReviewonline.
 

The KC Star reported that, which is a reasonable statement, everyone should be wary of the Presidents inherent authority. But the FISA court has already stated in a previous ruling that this IS and inherent authority and what the KC Star apparently left out was Judge Kornblum's conclusion in his testimony:


"[Judge] KORNBLUM: I think — as a magistrate judge, not a district judge — that a president would be remiss in exercising his constitutional authority to say that, "I surrender all of my power to a statute." And, frankly, I doubt that Congress in a statute can take away the president's authority — not his inherent authority but his necessary and — I forget the constitutional — his necessary and proper authority."

See this thread for a further critique of the NYT's reporting of the hearings.

Which concludes

" NRO concludes that Lichtblau's [the NYT reporter] assertion that "several former judges who served on the panel also voiced skepticism at a Senate hearing about the president's constitutional authority to order wiretapping on Americans without a court order." is false and that "the transcript indicates that the exact opposite is true.""
 
I will read the transcript later. I must have misunderstood who spoke. I thought only some of the judges were former judges. Regardless, I find it hard to believe that if these former judges said that Bush had the authority, why this story would not be on the cover of all the major newspapers. I mean, come on, guys. The media harped on this for weeks! And don't say that they are afraid to admit they were wrong. There are plenty of newspapers who are willing to report news that isn't favorable to its political leanings. When professors from the top law schools in the United States have questioned the authority, I have a hard time thinking that all the former judges from the FISA court who testified found that Bush had the authority.

And here is Fox News reporting the same AP story that the very liberal Kansas City Star reported.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,189447,00.html

"Judges Back Bill Scrutinizing NSA Wiretap Program" That is the title of the article. Sorry, guys, but when the judges support the scrutinizing of the NSA wiretap program, that tells me that they can't be also saying that Bush has the inherent authority.
 
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aps said:
Sorry, guys, but when the judges support the scrutinizing of the NSA wiretap program, that tells me that they can't be also saying that Bush has the inherent authority.

Try a little closer attention to the details. These are not mutually exclusive, as the former judges discussed.
 
oldreliable67 said:
Try a little closer attention to the details. These are not mutually exclusive, as the former judges discussed.

Are you going to tell me that the Washington Times's conclusion that the former judges said that Bush was within the law is accurate? Oh, and oldreliable, I'll "[t]ry a little closer attention to the details." :roll:
 
aps said:
Are you going to tell me that the Washington Times's conclusion that the former judges said that Bush was within the law is accurate?

No, I'm not. The Washington Times is entitled to their conclusion, as are we all. As I have written previously, IMO, a definitive conclusion is remains begging for a court test, though I lean towards agreement with the Washington Times, the former FISA judges and a group of legal scholars that the program is legal and within the President's authority.

You, on the other hand, have written extensively that you disagree and base your opinion largely on the group of legal scholars on whose opinions you have chosen to rely.

And thats why we have vanilla and chocolate. And places like DP where we can express those respective opinions in a (mostly) civilized manner.
 

I have not said one way or another regarding the conclusion drawn from the hearing. I have my own opinion, and I accept that there are opinions that support my opinion and those that do not. Again, and you clearly refuse to address this, IF they found that Bush had the authority, then tell me why it's not being discussed in the media? And don't tell me it's because the liberal media bias refuses to accept such opinion.
 
Again, and you clearly refuse to address this, IF they found that Bush had the authority, then tell me why it's not being discussed in the media? And don't tell me it's because the liberal media bias refuses to accept such opinion.

Au contraire, I am not refusing to address the media attention (or lack thereof, depending on one's pov) to this. The media has extensively addressed it: both the NYT, the AP, the WP, the Washington Times, et al, have all reported on it. I caught mentions of it on CNN and MSNBC. It just isn't that biguva deal any more.

The fact that the story didn't generate an immediate public reaction might be that the NSA surveillance program is no longer in the forefront of the public consciousness. We, thanks in part to that very same media, have formed our opinions and moved on. It will take something stronger than the opinions of former FISA judges (more blood and more bullets, metaphorically speaking) connected to the story to restore it to its former eminence.
 
That's usually the way the media works....

"Oh by the way...Remember that story we beat into the ground two months ago until the public started tuning it out and considering it background noise?...Well here's more on it"...

By that time(now), no one cares anymore...It's an afterthought...Like that Aruba girl that Greta keeps trying to resurrect from the dead...(The story, not the girl)...
 

Okay, this is something that I can agree with to some extent. I never saw it in the Washington Post, which is what has truly surprised me. I just searched the website and came up with nothing (but I may not be using the correct search terms). Do you have a link?
 
aps said:
Are you going to tell me that the Washington Times's conclusion that the former judges said that Bush was within the law is accurate? Oh, and oldreliable, I'll "[t]ry a little closer attention to the details." :roll:
The Times didn't make the conclusion that Bush was within the law, the judges did. The Times reported such conclusion.
 

Sorry, the moonie paper isn't a source, at all. You might as well quote the National Enquirer. Take a look at interviews with people who left the paper some time when you have a miniute as to what their "journalistic standards" are.



The moonie paper? Not so much.

If you can cooborate this story with a reputable source, (one that employs a fact checker would be a good place to start) we can debate it.

One of the quotes I heard from a FISA judge said that Bush is violating the law "at his own peril." None of the judges said that Bush was acting within the law. I'm looking for a transcrip that I'll post when I find it.
 
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Stinger said:
FISA JUDGES SAY BUSH WITHIN LAW
By Brian DeBose
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20060329-120346-1901r.htm

Here's a story with actual quotes, notice that none of the judges said Bush was acting within the law. They were inclined to not answer the question directly. Judge Baker did say "the president ignores it at the president's peril."
The Washington Times can spin it however they want, along with Hannity and the rest. But it's hard to refute when the actual words are on tape.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/29/politics/29nsa.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
 
Already debunked...


A couple things...

A)Washington Post is biased but New York Times isn't?...You should thank God we don't drug test here...

B)Funny how you post an article without ONE Jusge Kornblum quote...

C)Start cropping your articles...you know the rules....
 
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Not true. See Judge Kornblum's comments, below.

NRO and Powerline both have partial transcripts.

To whet your appetite, here are a couple of bits as reported by Powerline..


And with respect to a question from Senator Hatch regarding the admissibility in criminal trials of evidence obtained indirectly from the NSA surveillance program:


After reading the portions of the transcripts available online, I find it hard to agree with Lichtblau's description of the the judge's having voiced 'skeptcism' regarding the prez's constitutional authority to order the NSA surveillance program.
 

All I see is the right wing spinning it differently. Does anyone have the full transcript?

A. I have a serious problem with the Moonie Washington Times - not the Washington Post.

B. Funny how?

C. I did crop the article - notice the "/snip" marks
 
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Assuming this statement is true, is that not indicative of skepticism?

"I am very wary of inherent authority" claimed by presidents, testified U.S. Magistrate Judge Allan Kornblum. "It sounds very much like King George."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,189447,00.html

Do you need me to define wary?
 

Here's what Judge Baker said. How is that not true?

 
hips said:
None of the judges said that Bush was acting within the law

'Not true' referred to your statement quoted above, which was contradicted by the Kornblum statement which followed.
 
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