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First they came for the Jews... (Now the Europeans?)

Missouri Mule

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For the fence sitters here. You are either with us or you are against us. Choose up sides. Either modernity prevails or a new Dark Age descends on humanity.
===========================

First they came for Israel, then they came for America...

By Dennis Prager

Feb 7, 2006

In 1945, the anti-Nazi German pastor Martin Niemoller wrote the following:

"First they came for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up, because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me."


This famous statement can be updated for Europeans:

First they came for Israel, and we didn't speak up because we weren't Jews. Then they came for Lebanon's Christians, and we didn't speak up because we weren't Maronites. Then they came for America, and we didn't speak up because we weren't Americans. Then they came for Sudan's blacks, and we didn't speak up because we weren't Sudanese blacks. Then they came for us, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for us.

As long as Muslim demonstrators only shouted "Death to America" and "Death to Israel," Europe (and the rest of the world's Left) found reasons either to ignore the Nazi-like evil inherent in those chants (and the homicidal actions that flowed from them) or to blame America and Israel for the hatred.

But like the earlier Nazis, our generation's fascists hate anything good, not merely Jews and Americans. And now the Damascus embassy of Norway, a leading anti-Israel "peace at any price" country, has been torched. And more and more Norwegians, and Brits, and French, and Dutch, and Swedes, and the rest of the European appeasers who blamed America for 9-11 and blamed Israel for Palestinian suicide bombings, are beginning to wonder whether there just might be something morally troubling within the Islamic world.

Some on the Left here and in Europe are beginning to reassess whether America and Israel or their Islamic enemies are at fault.

The fact that major newspapers in most Western European countries published some or all of the cartoons that triggered the riots against Denmark, the country in which the offending cartoons of Muhammad first appeared, was a statement that at least some in Europe have had it with appeasement of Islamic violence.

And here in America, a left-of-center columnist for the Los Angeles Times, Tim Rutten, just wrote: "It's no longer possible to overlook the culture of intolerance, hatred and xenophobia that permeates the Islamic world."


As it happens, I have sympathy with the notion that newspapers and others need to be sensitive to religious, including Muslim, sensibilities. However, when Muslim governments and religious spokesmen attack the West for its insensitivity to Muslims and its anti-Muslim prejudice, one has entered the Twilight Zone. Because nowhere in the world is there anywhere near the religious bigotry and sheer hatred of other religions that exists in the Muslim world.

Christians nearly everywhere in the Arab and Muslim worlds are usually second-class citizens at best and terribly treated at worst.

The Taliban Islamic regime in Afghanistan blew up the unique Buddhist sculptures in their country because they didn't want even a trace of a non-monotheistic faith to survive in an Islamic country.

About a million non-Arab and non-Muslim men, women and children have been slaughtered by the Islamic regime in Sudan.

Nigerian Christians are periodically murdered by Islamic mobs.

And regarding Jews, Andrew Sullivan writes in this week's Time: "The Arab media run cartoons depicting Jews and the symbols of the Jewish faith with imagery indistinguishable from that used in the Third Reich."

(Snip)

Find this story at: http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/dennisprager/2006/02/07/185467.html
 

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I think many people will still be blind and try to make excuses the radical muslims.They will probly submit to these muslims by saying that we were being insensitive to them and such insentivities should be banned and that christians and jews are still free game.

Although I wonder if the same people who say it is free speech to air stories that damage the reputation and progress of our soldiers will turn around and say it is not free speech to **** off hypocrit radical muslims?
 

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jamesrage said:
I think many people will still be blind and try to make excuses the radical muslims.They will probly submit to these muslims by saying that we were being insensitive to them and such insentivities should be banned and that christians and jews are still free game.
no one tries ot make excuses about radical islam. (or shouldn't). but from the posts ive read of yours, you seem to think the islamic religioin is violent overall. That is a false statement. Theres one billion of them and only a small faction actually submit to this violent fundementalist radicalism of the religion. Also, you can't equate anti-israel to radical islam. Theres too many people who support palestinians who aren't even muslim. And then theres pretty much all the muslim world who supports the palestinian cause.

Although I wonder if the same people who say it is free speech to air stories that damage the reputation and progress of our soldiers will turn around and say it is not free speech to **** off hypocrit radical muslims?
well depends on your definition of radical islam. Everyone hates radical muslims. But when we start targeting the moderate muslim community and calling them radical, thats where we begin to err.
 

Kandahar

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nkgupta80 said:
no one tries ot make excuses about radical islam. (or shouldn't). but from the posts ive read of yours, you seem to think the islamic religioin is violent overall. That is a false statement. Theres one billion of them and only a small faction actually submit to this violent fundementalist radicalism of the religion. Also, you can't equate anti-israel to radical islam. Theres too many people who support palestinians who aren't even muslim. And then theres pretty much all the muslim world who supports the palestinian cause.



well depends on your definition of radical islam. Everyone hates radical muslims. But when we start targeting the moderate muslim community and calling them radical, thats where we begin to err.
Where are these "moderate Muslims" and why haven't they condemned the actions of the radicals en masse? Even in countries supposedly controlled by moderate factions, such as Turkey/Lebanon/Indonesia, the actions of the past few days show that the radicals are a significant percentage of Muslims. And in the United States? The main Islamic organizations are full of extremists.

Radical Islam is the rule, not the exception.
 

Missouri Mule

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This business today is a watershed event in Islamic/Western Civilization relations. If this doesn't wake up some people then I suppose nothing will short of a nuclear cloud. And most experts in the terrorism field believe it will happen within the next decade. Where is it likely to come from? I believe the answer is obvious.

What is the answer? Beats the hell out of me. The only thing I can think of is to separate the two civilizations which will require that we eliminate the importation of ME oil and gas. Anything short of that will always put the West in a position of weakness and impotence. Therefore it appears we are on an inevitable collision course.
 

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Kandahar said:
Radical Islam is the rule, not the exception.
So what are you saying that out of the 1 billion plus muslims on earth most of them are radical fundamentalists? :roll: if so then we are in a world of ****:2wave:
 

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Thano said:
So what are you saying that out of the 1 billion plus muslims on earth most of them are radical fundamentalists? :roll: if so then we are in a world of ****:2wave:
For some reason I do not see those 1 billion plus muslims who are not terrorist/terrorist sympathizers/terrorist appologist speaking out against what these animals in the street are doing over a ****en cartoon.
 

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jamesrage said:
For some reason I do not see those 1 billion plus muslims who are not terrorist/terrorist sympathizers/terrorist appologist speaking out against what these animals in the street are doing over a ****en cartoon.

so the 1 billion people who are not radical must speak out against the crazy "muslims" in order to be considered moderate...
 

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nkgupta80 said:
so the 1 billion people who are not radical must speak out against the crazy "muslims" in order to be considered moderate...
Ding ding ding
We have a winner
 

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nkgupta80 said:
so the 1 billion people who are not radical must speak out against the crazy "muslims" in order to be considered moderate...

Of course.How else do we know where they stand?The moderate muslims must speak out and expell these animals from their community.Because if these animals were ever successful who do you think they will go after next if there is no jews,no christians,no budist,no pagans and no atheist left?
Muslims murder muslims everyday in Iraq,so the "hey I am a muslims too" will not work on these people.
 

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jamesrage said:
Of course.How else do we know where they stand?The moderate muslims must speak out and expell these animals from their community.Because if these animals were ever successful who do you think they will go after next if there is no jews,no christians,no budist,no pagans and no atheist left?
Muslims murder muslims everyday in Iraq,so the "hey I am a muslims too" will not work on these people.
You sound like your only exposure to muslims has been through the media and stories of terrorism around the world.. you are right, normal muslims should speak out more, so that uninformed people like you could finally understand that most muslims are indeed not crazy.

Yes , there is a big problem with radical muslim terrorism. yes, muslims should speak out more against these radicals. yes, i think the muslim religion needs some reform (mainly in the mid-east), but don't use this as an argument to blame the 900 million muslims in the world of being crazy fundementalists mfkers.
 

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nkgupta80 said:
You sound like your only exposure to muslims has been through the media and stories of terrorism around the world.. you are right, normal muslims should speak out more, so that uninformed people like you could finally understand that most muslims are indeed not crazy.
"Uninformed" people like me only see and read what the media shows to the world.The media is showing hypocritical muslims who did not get irrate when muslims flew planes into buildings,did not get irrate when muslims murdered innocent school children and muslims did not get irrate when muslims blew themselves up to murder innocent people.
 

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nkgupta80 said:
You sound like your only exposure to muslims has been through the media and stories of terrorism around the world.. you are right, normal muslims should speak out more, so that uninformed people like you could finally understand that most muslims are indeed not crazy.

Yes , there is a big problem with radical muslim terrorism. yes, muslims should speak out more against these radicals. yes, i think the muslim religion needs some reform (mainly in the mid-east), but don't use this as an argument to blame the 900 million muslims in the world of being crazy fundementalists mfkers.
Actually about there are about 1.3 billion Muslims. Most are not terrorists. But virtually all terrorists today are Muslims. Just a fact of life. It wasn't Jehovah's Witnesses who flew those airbombs into the WTC on 9/11. It was fanatical maniacs who happened to be Muslims. And I still remember on that day the many if not most Muslims around the world who just whooped and hollared because "we had it coming to us." Well I got a message to those people. Just do us all a favor. You can stay where you are at and stay out of western nations where civilized people live. We have more than enough competent people and enough crazy people already here without tipping the scales in the wrong direction.
 

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Missouri Mule said:
Actually about there are about 1.3 billion Muslims. Most are not terrorists. But virtually all terrorists today are Muslims. Just a fact of life. It wasn't Jehovah's Witnesses who flew those airbombs into the WTC on 9/11. It was fanatical maniacs who happened to be Muslims. And I still remember on that day the many if not most Muslims around the world who just whooped and hollared because "we had it coming to us." Well I got a message to those people. Just do us all a favor. You can stay where you are at and stay out of western nations where civilized people live. We have more than enough competent people and enough crazy people already here without tipping the scales in the wrong direction.

virtually all terrorists are indeed muslim. which is good for us. next time our security sees a muslim they can easily profile and scrutinize, thus weeding out the terrorists.

And I still remember on that day the many if not most Muslims around the world who just whooped and hollared because "we had it coming to us."
many meaning the crazy ones rite? the ones that you saw on tv. I mean the media show that clip over and over again, just like they like showin clips of our troops doin nasty things over and over again. Of course the media wont show you the muslims (99% of them) who gawked and felt disgust for what happened on 9/11. i remember when we attacked bahgdad, kids screamin bombs over baghdad, kill all those fkn arabs etc. When you really think about that from an objective viewpoint thats also pretty sick. Imagine a iraqi woman who's child got killed in a US bomb as collateral damage, and her seeing americans cheering as they bomb baghdad...Its the same damn thing.



And secondly, I don't know what you mean by "the western nations where the civilized people live". What makes the west civilized and the rest of the world not civilized.
 

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nkgupta80 said:
And secondly, I don't know what you mean by "the western nations where the civilized people live". What makes the west civilized and the rest of the world not civilized.
I'll answer that one.

In the West, we have freedom of the press. In the Middle East, they have the freedom to chop off heads.

In the West, we're free to practice whatever religion we want. In the Middle East, they're free to practice whatever style of headchopping they want.

In the West, we have democratic governments. In the Middle East, they have headchopping governments.

In the West, we have prosperity because of free trade. In the Middle East, they have headchoppings.

In the West, we have equality under the law for both genders and all races. In the Middle East, you have an equal chance of surviving getting your head chopped off.

In the West, we respect education and the free exchange of ideas. In the Middle East, they respect headchoppings.

In the West, we generally want our children to succeed, hopefully doing even better than we did. In the Middle East, they want their children to chop the heads off of infidels and become martyrs.

In the West, we measure progress in terms of scientific and political achievement. In the Middle East, they measure progress in how many malcontents get their heads chopped off.

Yep, a very "civilized" society they have there...
 

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nkgupta80 said:
virtually all terrorists are indeed muslim. which is good for us. next time our security sees a muslim they can easily profile and scrutinize, thus weeding out the terrorists.

many meaning the crazy ones rite? the ones that you saw on tv. I mean the media show that clip over and over again, just like they like showin clips of our troops doin nasty things over and over again. Of course the media wont show you the muslims (99% of them) who gawked and felt disgust for what happened on 9/11. i remember when we attacked bahgdad, kids screamin bombs over baghdad, kill all those fkn arabs etc. When you really think about that from an objective viewpoint thats also pretty sick. Imagine a iraqi woman who's child got killed in a US bomb as collateral damage, and her seeing americans cheering as they bomb baghdad...Its the same damn thing.

And secondly, I don't know what you mean by "the western nations where the civilized people live". What makes the west civilized and the rest of the world not civilized.
Western civilization is an easy concept to understand. It is where pluralism and modernity thrives. That is an impossibility in Islam. Islam is unreformable just like WWII Nazism was unreformable. One can't reason with a terrorist. And Muslims as a group embrace a doctrine of thought that was concocted by a maniac from the 7th century. He was also a pedophile and a mass murderer as witnessed by the Medina mass head chopping incident. And Muslims are COMMANDED to smite the head of the "infidels." That, my friend is all the rest of us. We are the "Kafir" which in the Islamic faith are people without value. Just like Van Gogh's murderer told Van Gogh's own mother. He didn't feel remorse or sorrow. After all she was an "unbeliever." It didn't matter. He didn't feel a thing for her. Not a bit. These are the people I am talking about, if you can call them people. We don't know who they are except they are Muslims.

Let's look at it another way. You've heard of the "bird flu." It is a serious problem. A potentially world wide pandemic. If left unattended it could spread around the world and lead to perhaps a hundred million deaths. The reason that the flu spreads is because people travel from continent to continent easily today. It will be much worse than the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic that killed about 50 million people. Allowing Muslims in the country only invites further terrorists. There is no way, short of a mind reading machine to know the "good" ones from the "bad" ones. The mastermind of 9/11 was educated and had a master's degree from right here in the U.S., yet all he wanted to do was to destroy us. What possible sense does that make? IslamoNaziism is not merely a mental disorder, it is a mass movement of fanaticism that if unchecked will kill even more people than the bird flu. We are talking about billions of human deaths if they get the nukes and the Mad Mullahs of Iran are just about there. One nuke on Israel and you had better be prepared to head for the hills and hope to find an unoccuppied cave because everything you value and know as normal western life will dissappear in a nuclear holocaust. And most all experts on the matter say it is not a matter of if but when.
 

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Missouri Mule said:
Western civilization is an easy concept to understand. It is where pluralism and modernity thrives. That is an impossibility in Islam. Islam is unreformable just like WWII Nazism was unreformable. One can't reason with a terrorist. And Muslims as a group embrace a doctrine of thought that was concocted by a maniac from the 7th century. He was also a pedophile and a mass murderer as witnessed by the Medina mass head chopping incident. And Muslims are COMMANDED to smite the head of the "infidels." That, my friend is all the rest of us. We are the "Kafir" which in the Islamic faith are people without value. Just like Van Gogh's murderer told Van Gogh's own mother. He didn't feel remorse or sorrow. After all she was an "unbeliever." It didn't matter. He didn't feel a thing for her. Not a bit. These are the people I am talking about, if you can call them people. We don't know who they are except they are Muslims.

Let's look at it another way. You've heard of the "bird flu." It is a serious problem. A potentially world wide pandemic. If left unattended it could spread around the world and lead to perhaps a hundred million deaths. The reason that the flu spreads is because people travel from continent to continent easily today. It will be much worse than the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic that killed about 50 million people. Allowing Muslims in the country only invites further terrorists. There is no way, short of a mind reading machine to know the "good" ones from the "bad" ones. The mastermind of 9/11 was educated and had a master's degree from right here in the U.S., yet all he wanted to do was to destroy us. What possible sense does that make? IslamoNaziism is not merely a mental disorder, it is a mass movement of fanaticism that if unchecked will kill even more people than the bird flu. We are talking about billions of human deaths if they get the nukes and the Mad Mullahs of Iran are just about there. One nuke on Israel and you had better be prepared to head for the hills and hope to find an unoccuppied cave because everything you value and know as normal western life will dissappear in a nuclear holocaust. And most all experts on the matter say it is not a matter of if but when.
about the western civilization bit, its better to just say the world is comparatively more civilized than the mid-east today. The western civs did commit the bloodiest wars in history.. but i digress

What you describe about islam can be argued to be true. Fundementalists especially think that. But moderate muslims don't view islam like that. And why put it in their heads that thats what islam is all aobut. If you continue hatin on islam, will it ever reform? I know so many muslims who are some of the morally sane people I've ever met. They attribute it to their religion. Even if islam has this violent history, 99% of the muslims have looked past it.
During the islamic empires, the kafir's the non-muslim peoples were taxed and such. But for a long period of time (during islam's golden age) most of the non-muslim people were still given a lot of freedom (a lot more than the christians gave to non-christians during the time periods). Maybe it goes against the original text, but who cares, they learned to reform their religion.

This should be the goal, not merely alienating all muslims. You're not solving the problem like that, you're merely asking to spread it. Flu analogy doesn't work. In our world today, ideologies have no physical borders. People do convert to islam in the US, and if adopt an alienating policy, radicalism could spread quickly to young muslims in the US and up come more terrorists. So... its better to embrace the moderate muslims, and continue the assault on radicalism. But make sure you reiterate that distinction.
 

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also,

i do agree that most muslims don't seem to speak out much against these radical islamists, and I believe its wrong for them to do so. But then I wonder, why don't they. These people are polluting their religion, why don't they stop it? I'd say its because this war against ideologies, etc is too tangled up with foreign politics. A muslim who shows slight sympathy for the terrorist movement, most probably draws that sympathy from his/her disagreement western foreign policies in the mid-east etc., not because he/she agrees with the religious convictions of the terrorists.
 

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nkgupta80 said:
about the western civilization bit, its better to just say the world is comparatively more civilized than the mid-east today. The western civs did commit the bloodiest wars in history.. but i digress

What you describe about islam can be argued to be true. Fundementalists especially think that. But moderate muslims don't view islam like that. And why put it in their heads that thats what islam is all aobut. If you continue hatin on islam, will it ever reform? I know so many muslims who are some of the morally sane people I've ever met. They attribute it to their religion. Even if islam has this violent history, 99% of the muslims have looked past it.
During the islamic empires, the kafir's the non-muslim peoples were taxed and such. But for a long period of time (during islam's golden age) most of the non-muslim people were still given a lot of freedom (a lot more than the christians gave to non-christians during the time periods). Maybe it goes against the original text, but who cares, they learned to reform their religion.

This should be the goal, not merely alienating all muslims. You're not solving the problem like that, you're merely asking to spread it. Flu analogy doesn't work. In our world today, ideologies have no physical borders. People do convert to islam in the US, and if adopt an alienating policy, radicalism could spread quickly to young muslims in the US and up come more terrorists. So... its better to embrace the moderate muslims, and continue the assault on radicalism. But make sure you reiterate that distinction.
At one time the civilized world thought we could do business with Hitler and the Nazis. And don't forget that all of Germany and later Austria followed these psychopaths over the cliff. They weren't all evil either.

Did you know that one of the prime recruiting grounds for new Muslims is in our prisons? That's not generally appreciated. They are drawn to this "religion" even though it has nothing to do with their own upbringing. Watch for these new converts to be the next soldiers against Western Civilization and especially in the United States where we have so many incarcerated.

Cancer begins as a single cell. If left unattended, it will kill the host sooner or later. We haven't even diagnosed this disease yet; much less applying any cures.
 

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nkgupta80 said:
also,

i do agree that most muslims don't seem to speak out much against these radical islamists, and I believe its wrong for them to do so. But then I wonder, why don't they. These people are polluting their religion, why don't they stop it? I'd say its because this war against ideologies, etc is too tangled up with foreign politics. A muslim who shows slight sympathy for the terrorist movement, most probably draws that sympathy from his/her disagreement western foreign policies in the mid-east etc., not because he/she agrees with the religious convictions of the terrorists.
I'll tell you why. It is because militant Islam is like the Mafia. Once in the mob, you either tow the line or wind up wearing cement overshoes. Same way with Islam. It is either shut up and be a good soldier or suffer the consequences which more often than not is death.
 

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History has a bad habit of repeating itself. A famous phrase from Francisco Franco during Spains civil war, FIFTH COLUMN . Is about to make a come back. It will be used in reference to Muslim minorities in western European counries .That have not been assimilated. Who think of themselves as Muslims first.
France got a taste of it with the Urban riots it had recently.
 

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JOHNYJ said:
History has a bad habit of repeating itself. A famous phrase from Francisco Franco during Spains civil war, FIFTH COLUMN . Is about to make a come back. It will be used in reference to Muslim minorities in western European counries .That have not been assimilated. Who think of themselves as Muslims first.

France got a taste of it with the Urban riots it had recently.
The real problem here is that Europe has this nasty habit of waiting too long to deal with these problems. They would rather blame everything on America instead. But just like a bad penney that keeps turning up you can be certain they will once again call upon America to pull its bacon out of the fire. Just like always. We are like the red headed stepchild who is scorned but then used when it is convenient. I think this time we ought to simply let them stew in their own juices.
 

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nkgupta80 said:
so the 1 billion people who are not radical must speak out against the crazy "muslims" in order to be considered moderate...
No but there leaders should speak out against the violence and condemn it vehemently.......
 

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Kandahar said:
In the West, we have freedom of the press. In the Middle East, they have the freedom to chop off heads.
Freedom of the press? The US press is filled with propaganda and lies, what freedom of press? Are we talking about fair and balanced?:roll:

Kandahar said:
In the West, we're free to practice whatever religion we want. In the Middle East, they're free to practice whatever style of headchopping they want.
As long as your not arab or persian or black and practicing islam right?

Kandahar said:
In the West, we have democratic governments. In the Middle East, they have headchopping governments.
In the middle east, these headchopping governments are mostly patron-clients of the US Brittan and France.

Kandahar said:
In the West, we have prosperity because of free trade. In the Middle East, they have headchoppings.
In the west we have prosperity because we robbed people to get it, native americans africans and middle eastern oil, even asian and south american cheap labour.

Kandahar said:
In the West, we have equality under the law for both genders and all races. In the Middle East, you have an equal chance of surviving getting your head chopped off.
Don't be so quick to brag it really has not been that long and we saw how "equal" the races are during the katrina fiasco.

Kandahar said:
In the West, we respect education and the free exchange of ideas. In the Middle East, they respect headchoppings.
Yes free exchange of ideas, but if your not with us, then your with the terrorists!:mrgreen:
 

Comrade Brian

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Navy Pride said:
No but there leaders should speak out against the violence and condemn it vehemently.......
A majority do, the Jewish, Christain, and Muslim religions all condemn violence and have strict laws against it, which can be seen because all three follow those 10 Commandments, because one of the laws is no murdering, and these laws are supposed to be straight from "God's" hand. The reason why I find most don't think Muslims condemn violence is because media tends to only follow the violent "Muslims", because the ones that kill get better ratings, than the peaceful ones. Also because most Americans anyway are fed nationalism quite a bit and are tough that only when the US is involved does it matter.
 
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