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First Quarter GDP Revised Down To 1.8%

Meh, I think the proper view is the Fed should do as little as possible because if they delve into the market too much they do cause damage to it.

The reaction of Wall St to the eventual end of quantitative easing may be demonstrative of the "damage" that excessive fed action can cause. Stockholders dont believe profit is legitimate, that the Fed actions are part and parcel of the valuation of stock...or overvaluation as the case may be.

I would argue that the Fed accomplished exactly what it wanted, and that as it pulls back QE in the next 1-2 years we'll see some investors freak out but that it won't be generalized and it will equilibrate as inflated asset prices start to cool and funds move into other investments.
 
I would argue that the Fed accomplished exactly what it wanted, and that as it pulls back QE in the next 1-2 years we'll see some investors freak out but that it won't be generalized and it will equilibrate as inflated asset prices start to cool and funds move into other investments.

Uh, you just inferred (lightly mind you) that QE has created various bubbles by fed interference, or did damage.

If the market needed to make further correction before going up, the fed should have allowed it to do so, instead of putting more cash into the system for political purposes.
 
My contention is that a recession is a recession. Inflation is unrelated to it and should not be used as a qualifier. I'm far from an expert on Keyes but I don't think he would have commented on a event so unique that it had never happened in his time. I have no idea why you think OPEC's using the power of a monopoly to crash the world's economies (and get filthy rich) has much bearing on anything happening today. It is the danger of any capitalist system that monopolies will naturally develop and left unchecked will turn the free market into thieves market in no time flat

Now you're confusing me. First you say "...spending to take up the slack would be in order. Keyes was quite clear on that". Now, "I don't think he would have commented on a event so unique that it had never happened in his time". We're just repeating ourselves anyway, so it's fruitless to go on.
 
Uh, you just inferred (lightly mind you) that QE has created various bubbles by fed interference, or did damage.

If the market needed to make further correction before going up, the fed should have allowed it to do so, instead of putting more cash into the system for political purposes.

I inferred that QE has driven money out of certain assets and into other assets which was expected. I never claimed that the Fed created bubbles, because they didn't. The Fed didn't put more cash into the system for political purposes. There is no "hidden Fed agenda".
 
Now you're confusing me. First you say "...spending to take up the slack would be in order. Keyes was quite clear on that". Now, "I don't think he would have commented on a event so unique that it had never happened in his time". We're just repeating ourselves anyway, so it's fruitless to go on.

The unique event was stagflation and you brought it up. I can't believe you forgot.
 
"At all cost"? So, like... you'd sacrifice your life to stop a monopoly from forming?

No but breaking up monopolies requires a strong Govt. not intimidated by corporations. The cost is the screams of "socialism" and "anti-business" from the right. Nothing we can't handle given the seriousness of the problem.
 
No but breaking up monopolies requires a strong Govt. not intimidated by corporations. The cost is the screams of "socialism" and "anti-business" from the right. Nothing we can't handle given the seriousness of the problem.

Monopolies are the result of government intervention in the market, not free markets. Of course government is not intimidated by corporations. Corporate regulation is a cash cow for the politicians.
 
I inferred that QE has driven money out of certain assets and into other assets which was expected. I never claimed that the Fed created bubbles, because they didn't. The Fed didn't put more cash into the system for political purposes. There is no "hidden Fed agenda".

Its caused some degree of over valuation imo. Or a small Wall St bubble.

And of course the fed put money in for political purposes. Lets not be silly and think things happen in DC for any other reason.
 
Its caused some degree of over valuation imo. Or a small Wall St bubble.

And of course the fed put money in for political purposes. Lets not be silly and think things happen in DC for any other reason.

Overvaluation isn't a bubble. If I purchase a major block of a given stock, and the stock increases above its fundamental value, that is not a bubble. If I do it across an entire asset class, that still is not a bubble. That is what the Fed is doing with QE. It's just market manipulation.
 
You can't argue the economics of scale and the tendency of the large to swallow the small. Left unchecked the world's corporations would eventually all merge or be bought out leaving one. That last Corporation will be the one that has "competed" the best. That is what competition demands and what societies must prevent at all costs.

actually the worlds corporations have merged because of protectionism,take the cable and phone companies for example,they have all merged into a few supercompanies,who do not even compete with eachother,because the rules and regs for entering that industry are so regulated by the fcc,the only way to succeed is to have already existed.

the same applies to many industries,nearly every unprotected industry has competition,while every protected industry has none,and the protected industries are usually the most corrupt,like banks,communications,energy etc.
 
Overvaluation isn't a bubble. If I purchase a major block of a given stock, and the stock increases above its fundamental value, that is not a bubble. If I do it across an entire asset class, that still is not a bubble. That is what the Fed is doing with QE. It's just market manipulation.

Market manipulation IS creating a bubble. It is a false inflation of the market that would not exist otherwise.
 
actually the worlds corporations have merged because of protectionism,take the cable and phone companies for example,they have all merged into a few supercompanies,who do not even compete with eachother,because the rules and regs for entering that industry are so regulated by the fcc,the only way to succeed is to have already existed.

the same applies to many industries,nearly every unprotected industry has competition,while every protected industry has none,and the protected industries are usually the most corrupt,like banks,communications,energy etc.

It is a government / corporate collusion aka an Oligarchy.
 
No it's not, by definition. You don't know what a bubble is.

Hiding behind definitions does not help your argument. Propping up the market with QE is a false inflation of the Market.

If Market Manipulation is not creating a False market (bubble) then eliminating all government spending should have no effect on the Market. Your statement just negated the entire logic behind spending our way out of debt.
 
Hiding behind definitions does not help your argument.

It's not hiding behind definitions, it's understanding what a bubble actually is and that you're using the term improperly because you clearly don't know what a bubble is. This isn't simple semantics. A bubble is a distinct phenomenon, completely different than under/over-valuation.

You're basically claiming something equivalent to claiming that all bicycles have three wheels, and that I'm "hiding behind definitions" when I say that you're wrong and that they, by definition, have two. Obviously someone who claims that all bicycles have three wheels has no idea WTF they're talking about.

Propping up the market with QE is a false inflation of the Market.

QE isn't inflationary and your use of the term here is silly.

If Market Manipulation is not creating a False market (bubble) then eliminating all government spending should have no effect on the Market. Your statement just negated the entire logic behind spending our way out of debt.

Again, you show your failure to understand what a bubble is and how it is distinctly different from assets being simply over- or under-valued. Considering the fact that asset prices always fluctuate above/below their fundamental value, if we used your definition of bubble then there's a bubble in every asset in existence at any point in time.
 
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It's not hiding behind definitions, it's understanding what a bubble actually is and that you're using the term improperly because you clearly don't know what a bubble is. This isn't simple semantics. A bubble is a distinct phenomenon, completely different than under/over-valuation.

You're basically claiming something equivalent to claiming that all bicycles have three wheels, and that I'm "hiding behind definitions" when I say that you're wrong and that they, by definition, have two. Obviously someone who claims that all bicycles have three wheels has no idea WTF they're talking about.



QE isn't inflationary and your use of the term here is silly.



Again, you show your failure to understand what a bubble is and how it is distinctly different from assets being simply over- or under-valued. Considering the fact that asset prices always fluctuate above/below their fundamental value, if we used your definition of bubble then there's a bubble in every asset in existence at any point in time.

OK I have a business and I sell 1000 units a month and because of this investors invest in my business and the free market determines the value of my stock. If the economy is down and I only sell 800 units that is a decline in my business and the value of my stock goes down. That is the true value of my stock. Now if the government comes along and steals the people's tax dollars via legislation and purchases 700 units now I am selling 1500 units and the value of my stock goes up. But that is not real, it is a false "inflation" of the value of my stock. It is a bubble because if the government stops buying my stock with tax dollars my stock will return to the real market value. The bubble will have burst on my over-valued stock. This is being done on a massive scale and yes QE is also contributing because it lessens the loss of the devaluation by increasing the amount of currency which in the real market is simply inflationary.

Now I am no economist but if you are going to berate me because I don't understand it, why don't you splain what I am not getting here.
 
Now if the government comes along and steals the people's tax dollars via legislation and purchases 700 units now I am selling 1500 units and the value of my stock goes up. But that is not real, it is a false "inflation" of the value of my stock.

First, a large block purchase of stock in a given company is indeed going to drive the value of that stock over its fundamental value. The stock will certainly become overvalued from the purchase. Continued purchases can maintain the price of the stock at that overvalued level. This is true regardless of who the buyer is. In this scenario, the stock is overvalued relative to its fundamental value, but the price of the stock is still determined by supply and demand - the block purchase simply increased the demand (or rather, technically was the increased demand) and drove up the stock price.

When the Fed makes asset purchases, this is what it is doing. So yes, Fed open market operations drive up the price of the assets which it is buying, above the fundamental value. The asset becomes overpriced relative to its fundamental value. However, the price of the asset is still determined by fundamental economic principles that equilibrate price via supply and demand. When the Fed stops asset purchases, or starts selling off these assets, the price of the assets, due to economic laws, will decline.

I am not disagreeing with any of the above. In fact, it is what I am arguing. It is also exactly what the Fed intended when it implemented QE. Purchasing of bonds drives up bond prices, which drives down yields. That was the Fed's goal. Tapering of bond purchasing, halting bond purchasing, and/or selling of bonds, drives down the price, and therefore drives up yields. This is the entire point of QE.

What I am arguing against is you using the term "bubble" to explain this phenomenon. A bubble is a very distinct economic phenomenon, it isn't just a word you can use casually. It has a specific definition and specific qualifications that define it. It is a phenomenon whereby the usual laws of economics actually are violated. Supply and demand is how prices equilibrate normally. This is called a negative feedback mechanism. Another way to describe it is a stable equilibrium. Bubbles, in contrast, are driven by a positive feedback mechanism. In a bubble, people jump on board to ride the bubble up, and the prices just keep increasing. We're all familiar with the tech bubble or the real estate bubble. It's quite obvious how these phenomena are different from a simple overvaluation of a stock above its fundamental value. It was an entire system built around ever-increasing, accelerating prices, until the whole thing became unstable and fell apart.

Overvaluation doesn't mean that a bubble exists. Stocks constantly trade above or below their fundamental values. A bubble is a specific event in which overvaluation leads to even more overvaluation, and even more, and faster until it pops.

It's obvious why Fed operations haven't created a bubble, because we can look at asset prices and see that this isn't happening at all. Fed purchases drive up the price of the assets to a new level, but they don't create increasing purchases, and they don't accelerate the pace of asset purchases. They simply drive up the price of the asset to a new general level.

This is being done on a massive scale and yes QE is also contributing because it lessens the loss of the devaluation by increasing the amount of currency which in the real market is simply inflationary.

QE isn't inflationary because it is an asset swap between the Fed and banks. It essentially just swaps the assets with Fed credit in the banks' Fed accounts. The "cash" that the Fed used to purchase the assets just sits in the bank's reserve account. It never enters the economy and therefore, from a money supply standpoint, isn't inflationary at all.
 
Ok; thank you for clearing that up for me. You are right I misunderstood the term.

Doesn't the money in the bank's reserve enter the economy when loans are made against it? Isn't that the point?

Sorry for all the questions but I figure it might be more useful to ask then to simply spew ignorance, I can admit when I don't get it ... sometimes :doh
 
First, a large block purchase of stock in a given company is indeed going to drive the value of that stock over its fundamental value. The stock will certainly become overvalued from the purchase. Continued purchases can maintain the price of the stock at that overvalued level. This is true regardless of who the buyer is. In this scenario, the stock is overvalued relative to its fundamental value, but the price of the stock is still determined by supply and demand - the block purchase simply increased the demand (or rather, technically was the increased demand) and drove up the stock price.

When the Fed makes asset purchases, this is what it is doing. So yes, Fed open market operations drive up the price of the assets which it is buying, above the fundamental value. The asset becomes overpriced relative to its fundamental value. However, the price of the asset is still determined by fundamental economic principles that equilibrate price via supply and demand. When the Fed stops asset purchases, or starts selling off these assets, the price of the assets, due to economic laws, will decline.

I am not disagreeing with any of the above. In fact, it is what I am arguing. It is also exactly what the Fed intended when it implemented QE. Purchasing of bonds drives up bond prices, which drives down yields. That was the Fed's goal. Tapering of bond purchasing, halting bond purchasing, and/or selling of bonds, drives down the price, and therefore drives up yields. This is the entire point of QE.

What I am arguing against is you using the term "bubble" to explain this phenomenon. A bubble is a very distinct economic phenomenon, it isn't just a word you can use casually. It has a specific definition and specific qualifications that define it. It is a phenomenon whereby the usual laws of economics actually are violated. Supply and demand is how prices equilibrate normally. This is called a negative feedback mechanism. Another way to describe it is a stable equilibrium. Bubbles, in contrast, are driven by a positive feedback mechanism. In a bubble, people jump on board to ride the bubble up, and the prices just keep increasing. We're all familiar with the tech bubble or the real estate bubble. It's quite obvious how these phenomena are different from a simple overvaluation of a stock above its fundamental value. It was an entire system built around ever-increasing, accelerating prices, until the whole thing became unstable and fell apart.

Overvaluation doesn't mean that a bubble exists. Stocks constantly trade above or below their fundamental values. A bubble is a specific event in which overvaluation leads to even more overvaluation, and even more, and faster until it pops.

It's obvious why Fed operations haven't created a bubble, because we can look at asset prices and see that this isn't happening at all. Fed purchases drive up the price of the assets to a new level, but they don't create increasing purchases, and they don't accelerate the pace of asset purchases. They simply drive up the price of the asset to a new general level.



QE isn't inflationary because it is an asset swap between the Fed and banks. It essentially just swaps the assets with Fed credit in the banks' Fed accounts. The "cash" that the Fed used to purchase the assets just sits in the bank's reserve account. It never enters the economy and therefore, from a money supply standpoint, isn't inflationary at all.

Are you saying that QE's and the suppression of interest rates are not directly causing optimism in the equity and real estate markets AND causing people to invest in these areas substantially more then they would otherwise?
 
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Ok; thank you for clearing that up for me. You are right I misunderstood the term.

Doesn't the money in the bank's reserve enter the economy when loans are made against it? Isn't that the point?

Sorry for all the questions but I figure it might be more useful to ask then to simply spew ignorance, I can admit when I don't get it ... sometimes :doh

Banks don't lend money with reserves in mind. Banks make a loan, and then only afterwards reconcile their reserve holdings. Generally this is done through interbank lending. So a bank will make a loan, and if it determines that it doesn't meet the required reserve amount, will borrow the needed amount to satisfy the requirement in the interbank market. So bank reserves and its lending practices are not really closely connected. Further, reserves just sit in an account at the Fed or internally at the bank. They never enter the economy.

Are you saying that QE's and the suppression of interest rates are not directly causing optimism in the equity and real estate markets AND causing people to invest in these areas substantially more then they would otherwise?

Nobody - not even Bernanke - has denied that chasing funds out of bonds led them to be invested elsewhere.
 
Banks don't lend money with reserves in mind. Banks make a loan, and then only afterwards reconcile their reserve holdings. Generally this is done through interbank lending. So a bank will make a loan, and if it determines that it doesn't meet the required reserve amount, will borrow the needed amount to satisfy the requirement in the interbank market. So bank reserves and its lending practices are not really closely connected. Further, reserves just sit in an account at the Fed or internally at the bank. They never enter the economy.



Nobody - not even Bernanke - has denied that chasing funds out of bonds led them to be invested elsewhere.

And that is causing a bubble to form in equities (IMO).

One that will probably come crashing down when the Fed takes QE away.

Look just last week what happened around the world to markets after the Fed remotely hinted that they might one day taper...markets fell hard.


Onswipe
 
Driving
demand into an asset class doesn't necessarily create a bubble. I think that is what you types are failing to understand.

The FEDs currently purchasing massive amounts of bonds and securities which is driving up values which eventually will create .....a bubble.

Those assets are overcalued and just a hint at maybe slowing down QE caused a massive sell off.

Let the FED buy all the prime real estate they want, they can add it to the TRILLIONS in toxic MBSs that are now on their books, and watch the economy shrink.

You
 
Driving
demand into an asset class doesn't necessarily create a bubble. I think that is what you types are failing to understand.

The FEDs currently purchasing massive amounts of bonds and securities which is driving up values which eventually will create .....a bubble.

Those assets are overcalued and just a hint at maybe slowing down QE caused a massive sell off.

Let the FED buy all the prime real estate they want, they can add it to the TRILLIONS in toxic MBSs that are now on their books, and watch the economy shrink.

You people still haven't made the distinction between the REAL economy and the fake one Obama's using to claim a " recovery".
 
First, a large block purchase of stock in a given company is indeed going to drive the value of that stock over its fundamental value. The stock will certainly become overvalued from the purchase. Continued purchases can maintain the price of the stock at that overvalued level. This is true regardless of who the buyer is. In this scenario, the stock is overvalued relative to its fundamental value, but the price of the stock is still determined by supply and demand - the block purchase simply increased the demand (or rather, technically was the increased demand) and drove up the stock price.

When the Fed makes asset purchases, this is what it is doing. So yes, Fed open market operations drive up the price of the assets which it is buying, above the fundamental value. The asset becomes overpriced relative to its fundamental value. However, the price of the asset is still determined by fundamental economic principles that equilibrate price via supply and demand. When the Fed stops asset purchases, or starts selling off these assets, the price of the assets, due to economic laws, will decline.

I am not disagreeing with any of the above. In fact, it is what I am arguing. It is also exactly what the Fed intended when it implemented QE. Purchasing of bonds drives up bond prices, which drives down yields. That was the Fed's goal. Tapering of bond purchasing, halting bond purchasing, and/or selling of bonds, drives down the price, and therefore drives up yields. This is the entire point of QE.

What I am arguing against is you using the term "bubble" to explain this phenomenon. A bubble is a very distinct economic phenomenon, it isn't just a word you can use casually. It has a specific definition and specific qualifications that define it. It is a phenomenon whereby the usual laws of economics actually are violated. Supply and demand is how prices equilibrate normally. This is called a negative feedback mechanism. Another way to describe it is a stable equilibrium. Bubbles, in contrast, are driven by a positive feedback mechanism. In a bubble, people jump on board to ride the bubble up, and the prices just keep increasing. We're all familiar with the tech bubble or the real estate bubble. It's quite obvious how these phenomena are different from a simple overvaluation of a stock above its fundamental value. It was an entire system built around ever-increasing, accelerating prices, until the whole thing became unstable and fell apart.

Overvaluation doesn't mean that a bubble exists. Stocks constantly trade above or below their fundamental values. A bubble is a specific event in which overvaluation leads to even more overvaluation, and even more, and faster until it pops.

It's obvious why Fed operations haven't created a bubble, because we can look at asset prices and see that this isn't happening at all. Fed purchases drive up the price of the assets to a new level, but they don't create increasing purchases, and they don't accelerate the pace of asset purchases. They simply drive up the price of the asset to a new general level.



QE isn't inflationary because it is an asset swap between the Fed and banks. It essentially just swaps the assets with Fed credit in the banks' Fed accounts. The "cash" that the Fed used to purchase the assets just sits in the bank's reserve account. It never enters the economy and therefore, from a money supply standpoint, isn't inflationary at all.

Using the definition above of a bubble, why would you not consider Treasury bonds or mortgage prices in a bubble?

No negative feedback loop when the Fed is buying 85 billion a month of these securities.
 
And that is causing a bubble to form in equities (IMO).

What is your opinion on current earnings multiples?
 
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