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Fidel latest to say Cuba's communism doesn't work

samsmart

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Come on guys. Respond to the topic, which is about Castro saying that Communism doesn't work. No need to call people names here.

Okay.

To be fair, Castro didn't say that communism in Cuba doesn't work.

What he said was communism in Cuba doesn't work any more.

And what I get from the story isn't that Cuba will give up communism any time soon. Rather, there will be attempts to reform their communist system to deal with the current economic global crisis.

Later in the article said:
Cuba says much of its suffering is caused by the 48-year-old U.S. trade embargo. The economy has also been slammed by the global economic downturn, a drop in nickel prices and the fallout from three devastating hurricanes that hit in quick succession in 2008. Corruption and inefficiency have exacerbated problems.

As president, Raul Castro has instituted a series of limited economic reforms, and has warned Cubans that they need to start working harder and expecting less from the government. But the president has also made it clear he has no desire to depart from Cuba's socialist system or embrace capitalism.

So they are going to reform their communist system rather than get rid of it. Hopefully, their government system will eventually go to one with more personal freedoms.
 
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But the THEORY is what matters. Communism is now, and always will be, merely theory.It is topic for philosophers to kick around. That is all it can be. You can call a duck a dog, but it's not going to fetch any sticks for you. And yes, some people do still talk about how maybe it is possible..pie in the sky. When I was younger, maybe I was that naive too. But at 43, I am too familiar with how people are to fall for pretty stories. We are what we are, and we need to build a government that takes advantage of our good qualities, works to keep the bad qualities in check, and treats all with dignity, respect and fairness as much as is within our power. This is all we can hope for. It is a work in progress. It will always be a work in progress. Radicals in power, both on the right and the left, hinder this. We need radical citizens, I believe, because this gives us balance. We simply need to keep them out of power. Michael Moore is a radical. He has a place in our society. He gives you someone to make fun of and get all irritated with, and he gives me the abiltiy to say "good god, please don't try to speak for me!" And if you are as conservative as I assume, Sarah Palin fulfills that same role in the opposite way. Lets just make sure that these folks stay out of power, and just keep writing boosk and going on speaking tours.
 

apdst

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EXACTLY Apdst!! Because that is the way humans look at things. That is how we are, and that is exactly why communism cannot work. And most liberals are aware of this. Contrary to popular belief.

Then, why do ya'll support a Communist prez?
 

apdst

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But the THEORY is what matters. Communism is now, and always will be, merely theory.It is topic for philosophers to kick around. That is all it can be. You can call a duck a dog, but it's not going to fetch any sticks for you. And yes, some people do still talk about how maybe it is possible..pie in the sky. When I was younger, maybe I was that naive too. But at 43, I am too familiar with how people are to fall for pretty stories. We are what we are, and we need to build a government that takes advantage of our good qualities, works to keep the bad qualities in check, and treats all with dignity, respect and fairness as much as is within our power. This is all we can hope for. It is a work in progress. It will always be a work in progress. Radicals in power, both on the right and the left, hinder this. We need radical citizens, I believe, because this gives us balance. We simply need to keep them out of power. Michael Moore is a radical. He has a place in our society. He gives you someone to make fun of and get all irritated with, and he gives me the abiltiy to say "good god, please don't try to speak for me!" And if you are as conservative as I assume, Sarah Palin fulfills that same role in the opposite way. Lets just make sure that these folks stay out of power, and just keep writing boosk and going on speaking tours.

It's not a theory. It's been proven, that it doesn't work.
 

Republic_Of_Public

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Let me say it big and loud - The THEORY and the PRACTICE are JOINED! You can't have one without the other!






Judging Communism in practice, even since the end of the Cold War, is a far more reliable arbiter than wading through different editions of pulp theory. So let's take a look at a few of Communism's great world statesmen:



STALIN - The granddaddy of them all. Took over the oppressive, murderous and backstabbing Soviet domination over the other so-called Peoples' Parties where Lenin left off. Killed people in all he did, even when trying to build a modern industrial economy. One-time ally of Hitler and imperialist who imposed the Iron Curtain. Responsible for up to 51 million deaths due to famine, purges, incompetent war leadership and imposition of political opinion. Almost succeeded in instigating a Hitler-style pogrom before ill health brought upon his death. Communist world obliged to mourn his passing.








KRUSCHEV - Incompetent successor to Stalin who almost crashed the world into nuclear war due to paranoia, smuggling rockets and warheads to bases in Cuba. He also plunged Russia into an embarassing bread famine, built the Berlin Wall to keep citizens from escaping the Socialist Paradise and continued Stalin's starvation of Ukranian peasants by confiscating their grain and selling it to the West. Shared in Stalin's death toll as his right-hand man during the Purges.








MAO TSE TUNG - Instigator of various 'revolutions', each drenched in the blood of millions. Hated any kind of authority and education outside his personal remit. He even created a rift between China and the USSR due to a control-freak personality usually a boon for a Communist leader. Killed up to 70,000,000 or more innocents.










POL POT - Deranged gang leader who caused Cambodia to revert to the Dark Ages, forcing city dwellers to live in communes, killing the educated and those wearing spectacles. Spent his last years skulking in a jungle to avoid punishment. Death toll: 2,000,000.







CEAUCESCU - Romanian despot who impoverished his country, yet built Europe's most grandiose palace as his people starved. His only real successes were to organise constant self-tributary parades, plus to talk Britain's LABOUR government into swapping valuable military hardware and plans for pig iron, rotting fruit and the contents of Romania's scrap yards. (He even made them feel pally enough to have them give him a State visit and honourary scientific doctorate for his wife!) Was finally deposed by the People and shot after a military trial for genocide and the brutal treatment of his people at the hands of the Securitate, a secret police even Ceaucescu referred to as 'terrorists' at his trial. Deaths on his non-existent conscience: 60,000. (A comparitive moderate!)








CASTRO
- The darling of the West's deluded campus bores, whose clean tap water (!) and efficient school indoctrination system earns him their undying devotion. Even The Beatles approached him for a record deal in 1968, yet his Communist system is at least as oppressive and murderous as another, especially worse than the system of government he replaced. He was a co-conspiritor in teh secret plan to transform Cuba into a nuclear war launch base in the anticipated kick-off of World War 3. Rose to illegal power on the promise to turn each Cuban into his own landowner, yet they starve and are exploited year on year. The shooting of dissidents and perceived enemies started in 1959 and never truly ceased, bringing the small island's body count to a hefty 97,000 in total.



(Is that why 23 Labour MPs recently signed an early Day Motion in Parliament PRAISING Castro
for his 'achievements', as well as Harriet Harman herself calling him a 'hero of the Left'!?)




...And so on. From General Jeruzelski who installed a brutal Martial Law to quash the needs of the Polish workers, to Honicke who imprisoned the East German people in his own rotting Stasi-based slave state to Kim Il Sung who pestered Stalin into letting him start the Korean War, there is NOT A SINGLE COMMUNIST LEADER who provided the egalitarianism, freedom and Democracy which the Far Left always breaks its promises on!


http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...anybody-else-see-oxymoron.html#post1058780044






....And lefties on that thread told me the roundup of murderous communist leaders was 'annoying', with the death tolls 'irrelevant'!
 
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*sigh* Communism BY DEFINITION has everyone completely and utterly equal. Thus..these governments you are talking about are NOT communisms. You can call them communisms. You can call them flutergorks if you want. It does not make them that. China is offically The People's Republic of China. Is it a Republic? Get over the communist thing guys. Its old Hat. And republic, I honestly dont much care what other lefties may or may not have said to you. I can disagree with them just as much as I disagree with you. If some right winger said something totally outrageous, should I point it out to you, as though saying, that since you are a right winger too, you must agree with them? Have a sense of proportion. If that picture is you, then you are not even old enough to remember the days of a communist block. This is not to say that you cant have valid points to make, but I DO remember. I remember it very well. I was stationed at Templehoff in Berlin serving in the Air Force in 1989 when the wall came down. So do not presume to fit this ex military, very patriotic, left winger into whatever pigeon hole you choose to put left wingers into.
 

samsmart

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China is offically The People's Republic of China. Is it a Republic?

Considering that the definition of a republic is any system of government that is not a monarchy, yes, the People's Republic of China is, indeed, a republic.
 

Republic_Of_Public

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...ex military, very patriotic, left winger...

I'm not putting you into any pigeon-hole. And I am old enough to remember communist times, though it was something far away.

As mentioned in my Communists thread, half my family are Polish, with my grandmother and her friends refugees from both Nazi and Communist occupation. So we know a thing or two in our house.

And besides, to flip the tables on the point you made, if you're such a patriotic left-winger then why go to all the bother of trying to de-tarnish communism's reputation? Though a conservative, I wouldn't dream of speaking up for Nazism with such vigour.


Communism BY DEFINITION has everyone completely and utterly equal. Thus..these governments you are talking about are NOT communisms.

And as I say, the theory can say what it pleases about absolute equality. But nature isn't like that, with people different and unequal. So in order to have a operable communism, you NEED tyranny and oppression to have as many people as possible set on the lowest common denominator. And you need a bloke in charge, especially with a doctrine so easily open to abuse, lacking common sense and all the checks and balances needed to keep the loonies at bay.

No amount of attempted rehabiliation will change that. Hence the fact that Soviet Russia and the others gave us THE ONLY MANIFESTATION OF COMMUNISM POSSIBLE IN PRACTICE.
 
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Deuce

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Wow, apparently Michael Moore represents the view of all liberals. That's tough for me, since I don't think I've seen any of his films.
 
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I don't really see what Fidel says about Cuba has to do with communism. Fidel was a political leader that postured with the USSR-bloc during the cold war. He isn't a Marxist theoretician. Besides, he's basically just going senile at this point.

So again, who cares?

BTW it's great to see all the trolls out in full force in this thread, sort of lets me know who to block. :D
 

Republic_Of_Public

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Fidel was also recognised as a valid representative of communism by every nation in the world.


BTW it's great to see all the trolls out in full force in this thread, sort of lets me know who to block.

Very freedom of debate! Very communist!

Very blocked am I! Very proud.
 
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Fidel was also recognised as a valid representative of communism by every nation in the world.

Lol I didn't know that every nation in the world was ruled by Marxists. :D
 

danarhea

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Lets imagine a society where everyone was treated equally, and all people had all the things they needed to live a peaceful and happy life. All property is owned by all people, and all people share equally.
I do not know a single person, either far right, or far left who does not feel that such a society would be a pretty damn nice place to live.

The problem is, and what Fidel has learned, as well as countless other "communist" leaders, is that it is simply NOT possible. Oh sure, if you had maybe 20 people completely isolated on an island somewhere, and they decided to form a communal type of society, they might manage it for a while, but eventually person number 12 would decide that person number 3 wasnt quite doing his fair share, and the fighting would commence.

The word communism is thrown around a lot. Castro WANTED a communism. The Soviet Union WANTED to be communist. But neither of them ever managed it. Communism is simply not possible in a society of any real size. It defies what we are. We cannot ignore human nature, and human nature always wants more. So lets call a spade a spade, shall we? Cuba was a fascism. The Soviet Union was a Fascism. There has NEVER been a communist govt. Communist ideals, perhaps. But they never managed it..because it can't be done.

You wont find one much more liberal than I..and I know this very simple fact. So keep your petty generalizations to yourself.

1) Fascism is corporate control of government.

2) The Soviets and Cuba did not allow corporations. The State ran everything.

Therefore, your post makes no sense at all. We could call Cuba and the Soviet Union dictatorships of a sort, though, because that's what they were.
 

Republic_Of_Public

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Lol I didn't know that every nation in the world was ruled by Marxists.

No, and thank God (or whatever you believe in). But you need not be a Marxist to recognise Castro. Like a malevolent version of Churchill, he was an internationally famous, pipe-smoking political icon!

From America to Russia to Britain to China to Australia, Castro was recognised as the Cuban communist who kept the peasants in bondage, in exchange for removing the American Fruit Company who apparently kept the peasants in bondage!

Go figure, as the Yanks say.
 
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MKULTRABOY

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As of yet this thread has been good for one thing and that is exposing the fact that the far right is infected by a political mania in where it must fill in what the left believes. Yes, the far left likely does this too, but I've never seen it to such a conspiratorial extent. Communist leftists exist, at least those we see on this forum seem to be academian. Also the concept of what communism is vs the extremist ideology of revolutionaries and the acts they committed seems to be beyond them as well.

Communism espouses that the transition from capitalism happens over time, firstly. Hence revolutionary changes in Russia and other countries are deemed leninist or stalinist as they digress from this.

Did I lurn you sumtin?
 
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Communism espouses that the transition from capitalism happens over time, firstly. Hence revolutionary changes in Russia and other countries are deemed leninist or stalinist as they digress from this.

Did I lurn you sumtin?

There was nothing "Leninist" or "Stalinist" about what happened in Russia/USSR. Historical events such as the Russian Revolution and its aftermath are much broader than simple ideological expositions.
 

Barbbtx

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michael moore has embraced communism as the appropriate political form for cuba. would you please source that so that we can see this is not something you have made up out of thin air

Sicko? You know, the Sicko Michael Moore movie on the fantastic single payer healthcare in Cuba.
 

ric27

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1) Fascism is corporate control of government.

Shifting of words..... Conservative positions should logically be called liberal or libertarian as they generally favor the rights of the individual, personal responsibility and an aversion to authoritarian controls and interference.

"Liberals" hijacked the term because they wanted the perception of liberty when a more accurately descriptive label would be socialist, fascist, communist, etc.

It happens all the time.... "gay" use to mean being light hearted, happy, etc.
 

Republic_Of_Public

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Did I lurn you sumtin?

Classic invalidation tactics. The so-called 'far right' opposition are ignorant cranks whilst even the communists are logical and fair.

What's also beyond many leftists is that in order to have communism you need the violence and oppression to keep people down. As an earlier poster pointed out, communism in theory can't go without it in practice because it bucks nature.

Hence every single communist regime behaving the same.
 
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Hence every single communist regime behaving the same.

ORRRRRRRR, and I know this is a big step for you, perhaps it has to do with Soviet involvement in the creation of these regimes and their adoption of the Soviet model...
 

MKULTRABOY

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Classic invalidation tactics. The so-called 'far right' opposition are ignorant cranks whilst even the communists are logical and fair.

What's also beyond many leftists is that in order to have communism you need the violence and oppression to keep people down. As an earlier poster pointed out, communism in theory can't go without it in practice because it bucks nature.

Hence every single communist regime behaving the same.

Some bug has sortof bit you. I never mentioned the far left was fair, I even went so far as to say that communists do reside on the far left of things and they even have some sympathisers. Also, communism says nothing about a necessary police state. You're preaching ignorance and hellfire.
 

justabubba

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Sicko? You know, the Sicko Michael Moore movie on the fantastic single payer healthcare in Cuba.

that was about that availability of universal healthcare in a third world communist country in contrast to that available in the world's leading economy
nice reach, but still no embrace of communism by michael moore ... despite his pointing to the cuban medical system as a good standard of care for a population

keep trying
 

Republic_Of_Public

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I know this is a big step for you, perhaps it has to do with Soviet involvement in the creation of these regimes and their adoption of the Soviet model...


Not every regime was the Soviet model, though the hard left bullies in Moscow forced the satellites under the thumb and kicked out Tito when they had the temerity to consider accepting Marshall Aid.

Mao's China and the USSR were so split over their tenets that Richard Nixon took the chance to woo the Chairman and hoped to divide the Communist world.

And I'd hardly say that Cambodia's regime much mirrored the USSR of Breshnev.



Also, communism says nothing about a necessary police state.

It's what it does though. Saying and doing can be totally different concepts amongst the great fraudsters of history.
 
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MKULTRABOY

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Shifting of words..... Conservative positions should logically be called liberal or libertarian as they generally favor the rights of the individual, personal responsibility and an aversion to authoritarian controls and interference.

"Liberals" hijacked the term because they wanted the perception of liberty when a more accurately descriptive label would be socialist, fascist, communist, etc.

It happens all the time.... "gay" use to mean being light hearted, happy, etc.

Liberals never hijacked anything, the terminology in politics have shifted for themselves. Please not fascist and communist lie on different sides of the spectrum, the modern political paradigm does not fit into traditional political conservatism/liberalism. You got a source for gays 'stealing' the term for themselves?
 

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Well, it appears many responders to this thread have ADHD and cannot stay on topic. Regardless, Castro has known what he has finally admitted for many years now. About 5-years ago, I believe it was, Cuba began leasing farm lands to privatize some of the countries agriculture, they found that this was the only way that Cuba could meet it's food needs and they have been inching that way ever since. Communism is an utopian idea that is never attainable in reality, contrary to what many have foolishly spewed onto this thread, there has never been a real communist nation on this planet. The closest that we have even witnessed to a truly socialist state is in European nations currently and they are having many problems maintaining that. Castro and all the others will realize that though equality has a very nice ring to it, human nature will never allow such a system to come to be, it is impossible and always doomed to failure. I would very much like to see Cuba return to the international market and am excited to watch it modernize and rise-up from the ashes of failed state.
 
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