• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Fidel Castro, Longtime Dictator of Cuba, Has Died

Status
Not open for further replies.
He did many good things and many not so good things.

1st world levels of literacy and a longer life expectancy than Americans thanks to the education and health systems. Not so great on the economic front, not helped by a tough US embargo.
From 1899 to 1958 the illiteracy rate dropped from 72% (Census of 1899) to 18% (Cuba's Ministry of Education archives) for persons older than 10 years of age, a remarkable achievement. Cubans were not just literate but also educated
 
United States, in spite of our hostile relationship with Castro, managed to keep and operate a military base in Cuba throughout his more than fifty year regime. Do you think an enormous undercurrent of strategic military strategy exists that sustains a tenuous balance of power and world order? Spend an hour or so researching the take over of Diego Garcia by British Intelligence and the U.S. Military.
I love the United States. I understand it's culture and systems better than those of any other country. That stated, I also recognize our Government does not posses an inherent moral and intellectual superiority over all the other countries of the world. No, our Government, instead, holds an established military superiority over all other countries, thus maintaining over 1000 military bases on foreign soil. Don't kid yourself about why we involve ourselves in other countries. Take Puerto Rico and Jamaica, two of the other Caribbean Islands, as examples. I have family in Puerto Rico and I began taking trips into Jamaica in the 1970s. I personally find Jamaica far more charming and enjoyable than Puerto Rico. For the few of you who might not know, Puerto Rico enjoys status as a U.S. territory with an option of statehood.. an option which the people of Puerto Rico have repeatedly rejected.

Nothing wrong with liking where you come from but, being realistic about what it is and what it means. In many quarters you would be considered 'self hating' for not cheer leading your team.
 
He definitely didn't restore it, and I think that's the main complaint people had with him. He went from bad and made everything much, much, much worse for his own people through communism.

Batista killed a lot more people in a much shorter timeframe, along with huge wealth inequality and little to no health and education for the poor.

Castro was a dictator, but by any conceivable metric, he was an improvement on what had been before him.
 
That is incorrect. Mercenaries are mercenaries regardless of what entity employs them. Mercenaries are not part of state sponsored military organizations by definition, but a state can hire them, and they do. They remain mercenaries.

I was speaking to the specific context of American fighters in Angola and Namibia in the 70's and 80's. If you're talking about the dictionary term "mercenary" then absolutely yes, they can be employed by anyone.

Lots of ignorance in this topic area.

Exactly. You seem never to have heard of the failed American policy of "constructive engagement" which even the authors of the policy admitted failed. America may have had an external public friendly policy of trying to soften or challenge apartheid but in private did everything it could to appease Pretoria. When you say it was your professional background, I doubt you had anything to do with Chester Crocker's department or dealings.

If you are a member of JSTOR, you can access a range of academic, peer reviewed papers on the actual history of what happened in Angola.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/25065268?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Alternately, I suggest you head down to Amazon or your local library and find this book.

https://www.amazon.com/Constructive-Engagement-Chester-Crocker-American/dp/0821417827
 
Batista killed a lot more people in a much shorter timeframe, along with huge wealth inequality and little to no health and education for the poor.

Castro was a dictator, but by any conceivable metric, he was an improvement on what had been before him.

Cuba was replaced from one dictator by another- and the country is still mired in poverty. Hardly an improvement.
 
Cuba was replaced from one dictator by another- and the country is still mired in poverty. Hardly an improvement.

Batista was more ruthless and murderous than Castro and the poor were even worse off under him.

I'm still waiting for the right wingers to criticise dictators like Batista and Pinochet.
 
Yeah we can equally add that Castro has hugely helped American company Chevron which has the biggest stake in Angola's oil production.

Well, Chevron is a for-profit enterprise; it's supposed to make money for extracting oil, and it was doing that in Angola long before Castro's troops arrived to back the MPLA. On the other hand, the country is a kleptocrat's paradise while half of Angolans live on less than $2 per day.
 
Well, Chevron is a for-profit enterprise; it's supposed to make money for extracting oil, and it was doing that in Angola long before Castro's troops arrived to back the MPLA. On the other hand, the country is a kleptocrat's paradise while half of Angolans live on less than $2 per day.

Ah I get it, only Castro helped Dos Santos and his daughter.

The fact a lot of the money went through US companies and some regularly through New Jersey accounts is just a simple coincidence. It's OK, the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act has been 100% effective and everything else is just misinformation. :roll:
 
Batista killed a lot more people in a much shorter timeframe, along with huge wealth inequality and little to no health and education for the poor.

Castro was a dictator, but by any conceivable metric, he was an improvement on what had been before him.

Uh, no, he didn't kill more people then Castro did.

Not to mention the fact that it's very easy for somebody who never would have had to put his money where his money was to say something like that.
 
A lot of nonsense has been talked in the last day about Cuba's supposedly wonderful health care. Be it noted that when Castro needed an operation he went off to Venezuela to get it. If the best that Cuban hospitals have to offer was not good enough for the dictator think how badly off the common people were - and are.
 
Batista was more ruthless and murderous than Castro and the poor were even worse off under him.

I'm still waiting for the right wingers to criticise dictators like Batista and Pinochet.

Sure, the overthrow of Batista was good. However he could have been replaced by a democrat rather than a puppet of the USSR aka the Evil Empire.
 
I was speaking to the specific context of American fighters in Angola and Namibia in the 70's and 80's. If you're talking about the dictionary term "mercenary" then absolutely yes, they can be employed by anyone.

Agreed, however the US never employed mercenaries to aid SA.
 
I was speaking to the specific context of American fighters in Angola and Namibia in the 70's and 80's. If you're talking about the dictionary term "mercenary" then absolutely yes, they can be employed by anyone.



Exactly. You seem never to have heard of the failed American policy of "constructive engagement" which even the authors of the policy admitted failed. America may have had an external public friendly policy of trying to soften or challenge apartheid but in private did everything it could to appease Pretoria. When you say it was your professional background, I doubt you had anything to do with Chester Crocker's department or dealings.

If you are a member of JSTOR, you can access a range of academic, peer reviewed papers on the actual history of what happened in Angola.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/25065268?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Alternately, I suggest you head down to Amazon or your local library and find this book.

https://www.amazon.com/Constructive-Engagement-Chester-Crocker-American/dp/0821417827

Reagan's "constructive engagement" was largely an extension of policy already initiated under Carter --as early as 1978-- to attempt to enlist the South Africans in diplomatic initiatives throughout southern Africa. It was Reagan, btw, who sent the first African-American US Ambassador to Pretoria. Barring the possibility of an occasional individual freelancer, there were never American fighters in Namibia. In Angola there was support for Savimbi, but this included no American fighters. Not to put too fine a point on it, I saw this movie the first time. My US government career began in 1976, and included twelve years of service in Africa.
 
Last edited:
Reagan's "constructive engagement" was largely an extension of policy already initiated under Carter --as early as 1978-- to attempt to enlist the South Africans in diplomatic initiatives throughout southern Africa. It was Reagan, btw, who sent the first African-American US Ambassador to Pretoria.

Yes but (this is where you originally butted in) the freeing of Southern African nations was not an American success, you guys did everything you could to halt liberation and freedoms for the natives. Doesn't matter that you send an African American in, it was what your policies and actions stood for that counted.

there were never American fighters in Namibia. In Angola there was support for Savimbi, but this included no American fighters. Not to put too fine a point on it, I saw this movie the first time. My US government career began in 1976, and included twelve years of service in Africa.

Maybe you missed the trials in Luanda of the American fighters?

~ Agreed, however the US never employed mercenaries to aid SA.

That was never a claim I made. There were however American mercenaries in Angola including Gary Martin Acker, Daniel Francis Gearhart and Gustavo Marcelo Grillo. These were the ones who were captured and tried, others may have escaped back into Zaire when the Cubans routed UNITA and South African forces with British mercenaries who also escaped back into Zaire.
 
Yes but (this is where you originally butted in) the freeing of Southern African nations was not an American success, you guys did everything you could to halt liberation and freedoms for the natives. Doesn't matter that you send an African American in, it was what your policies and actions stood for that counted.



Maybe you missed the trials in Luanda of the American fighters?



That was never a claim I made. There were however American mercenaries in Angola including Gary Martin Acker, Daniel Francis Gearhart and Gustavo Marcelo Grillo. These were the ones who were captured and tried, others may have escaped back into Zaire when the Cubans routed UNITA and South African forces with British mercenaries who also escaped back into Zaire.

First, the individuals named were with the thoroughly incompetent FNLA (Holden Roberto et al), not UNITA. As I said about Namibia, individual freelancers can't be ruled out. The Americans captured in 1976 were not in Angola with any sort of blessing from the US government. That was the year the Tunney Amendment ended all US activity in Angola until it was restarted under Reagan.
The US government can take pride in having assisted southern African liberation, to include both Zimbabwe and Namibia. In South Africa, Nelson Mandela's release from prison in 1990 and the end of apartheid in 1994 both represented achievement of US policy goals.
 
Yes but (this is where you originally butted in) the freeing of Southern African nations was not an American success, you guys did everything you could to halt liberation and freedoms for the natives. Doesn't matter that you send an African American in, it was what your policies and actions stood for that counted.



Maybe you missed the trials in Luanda of the American fighters?



That was never a claim I made. There were however American mercenaries in Angola including Gary Martin Acker, Daniel Francis Gearhart and Gustavo Marcelo Grillo. These were the ones who were captured and tried, others may have escaped back into Zaire when the Cubans routed UNITA and South African forces with British mercenaries who also escaped back into Zaire.

Btw, FNLA operated in the north of Angola, far from any South African support.
 
First, the individuals named were with the thoroughly incompetent FNLA (Holden Roberto et al), not UNITA. As I said about Namibia, individual freelancers can't be ruled out. The Americans captured in 1976 were not in Angola with any sort of blessing from the US government. That was the year the Tunney Amendment ended all US activity in Angola until it was restarted under Reagan.

Funny. Your previous posts happily stated there were no American mercenaries, now you admit that and repeat the lie that I suggested they were there by US Govt instigation. I never said that.

~ The US government can take pride in having assisted southern African liberation, to include both Zimbabwe and Namibia. In South Africa, Nelson Mandela's release from prison in 1990 and the end of apartheid in 1994 both represented achievement of US policy goals.

You haven't read or watched any of the documentaries where any of those (including Risqué and Chester Crocker) who admit otherwise. Like I said yesterday, American politics and stance on Cuba doesn't allow you to admit any credit to Cuba whereas some of those US diplomats actually involved do.
 
Funny. Your previous posts happily stated there were no American mercenaries, now you admit that and repeat the lie that I suggested they were there by US Govt instigation. I never said that.



You haven't read or watched any of the documentaries where any of those (including Risqué and Chester Crocker) who admit otherwise. Like I said yesterday, American politics and stance on Cuba doesn't allow you to admit any credit to Cuba whereas some of those US diplomats actually involved do.

As I said, individual freelancers cannot be ruled out. Stupidity is a common disease, and those guys seem to have caught it.

Not sure what evidence you think you have, but the record is otherwise.

[h=3]Chester Crocker - Wikipedia[/h]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_Crocker



Jump to Constructive engagement - Constructive engagement and "the fearlessly soft attitude displayed by Chester Crocker towards apartheid" were ...



 
Last edited:
Funny. Your previous posts happily stated there were no American mercenaries, now you admit that and repeat the lie that I suggested they were there by US Govt instigation. I never said that.



You haven't read or watched any of the documentaries where any of those (including Risqué and Chester Crocker) who admit otherwise. Like I said yesterday, American politics and stance on Cuba doesn't allow you to admit any credit to Cuba whereas some of those US diplomats actually involved do.

[h=3]Chester Crocker - Constructive Engagement in South Africa - YouTube[/h]
▶ 19:47


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJBOnFOVrCA
Mar 7, 2016 - Uploaded by Foreign Policy Association
Professor of Strategic Studies at Georgetown University Chester Crockerdiscusses his work in the State ...​
 
Funny. Your previous posts happily stated there were no American mercenaries, now you admit that and repeat the lie that I suggested they were there by US Govt instigation. I never said that.



You haven't read or watched any of the documentaries where any of those (including Risqué and Chester Crocker) who admit otherwise. Like I said yesterday, American politics and stance on Cuba doesn't allow you to admit any credit to Cuba whereas some of those US diplomats actually involved do.

[h=3]Lancaster House Agreement - Wikipedia[/h]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancaster_House_Agreement



The negotiations which led to the Lancaster House Agreement brought recognised ... The Agreement covered the Independence Constitution, pre-independence ... In terms of the Agreement, ZimbabweRhodesia temporarily reverted to its former ... Both the British and American governments offered to compensate white ...
 
That was never a claim I made. There were however American mercenaries in Angola including Gary Martin Acker, Daniel Francis Gearhart and Gustavo Marcelo Grillo. These were the ones who were captured and tried, others may have escaped back into Zaire when the Cubans routed UNITA and South African forces with British mercenaries who also escaped back into Zaire.

You certainly implied that very thing in a couple of posts. Understand, the US didn't contract with mercenaries to fight in Angola. The US offered financial aid and some small arms delivered through proxies. Mercenaries were present for the same reason they are present in any such conflict. Money is available for them to fight. The US did not assist SA in Angola and Namibia. It's true that our efforts were sometimes congruent, but that was simply a matter of convenience and not an endorsement of a more expansive cooperation or an expression of policy.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom