Fidel Castro, Longtime Dictator of Cuba, Has Died

[Jack Hays]

Fidel Castro
1926-2016
Cuban dictator, one of the world’s most repressive leaders, dies at 90
​

Although Castro was beloved by a legion of followers, detractors saw him as a repressive leader who turned Cuba into a de facto gulag. He taunted 10 successive U.S. presidents, who viewed him variously as a potential courier of Armageddon, a fomenter of revolution, a serial human rights abuser or a sideshow who hung on after communism collapsed almost everywhere else.

• By Kevin Sullivan and J.Y. Smith
• 1 hour ago

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Castro certainly helped the Marxist José Eduardo dos Santos, who's been president of Angola since 1979. He also helped dos Santos' daughter become a billionaire:

Yeah we can equally add that Castro has hugely helped American company Chevron which has the biggest stake in Angola's oil production.

~ Power to the people! :rock

Yes, yellow fever is rife as are other problems but the country has better prospects now than it had when the superpowers used it as a pawn in their global machinations.

Power to the Angolan people. :rock

 

[Jack Hays]

This.

While many nations turned a blind eye to the Apartheid regime and its invasion of Angola, Castro put troops in and defeated them in Angola, eventually leading to the freedom of Namibia and Angola. Obviously American citizens and Cuban escapees have very different opinions shaped by years of hostility but the situation in Africa was dire for decades without help from sources such as Castro and Cuba.

So tonight, I raise a glass of whisky to someone who actually made a difference for the positive in Africa.

Militarily the South Africans whipped the Cubans soundly. They had to withdraw after the Tunney Amendment compelled the cessation of US assistance to Jonas Savimbi.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Militarily the South Africans whipped the Cubans soundly.

Funny, Ronnie Kasrils was actually there as intelligence office and recalls something quite different. Mind you, when you say "South Africans" you should also add the considerable help from American mercenaries.

They had to withdraw after the Tunney Amendment compelled the cessation of US assistance to Jonas Savimbi.

The Tunney Amendment being an American action. Savimbi was nothing without South African military assistance.

 

[Jack Hays]

Funny, Ronnie Kasrils was actually there as intelligence office and recalls something quite different. Mind you, when you say "South Africans" you should also add the considerable help from American mercenaries.



The Tunney Amendment being an American action. Savimbi was nothing without South African military assistance.

The SADF needed no mercenary assistance, American or otherwise. Americans were in fact vanishingly few. And Savimbi did quite well indeed without the South Africans. That's why he was still strong in 1986.

[h=3]Battle of Cuito Cuanavale - Wikipedia[/h]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cuito_Cuanavale

The Battle of Cuito Cuanavale was a series of engagements between the Cuban-backed Armed Forces for the Liberation of Angola (FAPLA), and the South African Defence Force (SADF), ..... General Arnaldo Ochoa, a veteran of the 1976 Angola campaign and of tank battles in Ethiopia, was made overall commander of the ...

 

[Tigerace117]

Given that Cuba was a brutal dictatorship under Batista (minus the improved healthcare, education) would you care to explain how Castro stole their freedom?

He definitely didn't restore it, and I think that's the main complaint people had with him. He went from bad and made everything much, much, much worse for his own people through communism.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

The SADF needed no mercenary assistance, American or otherwise. Americans were in fact vanishingly few. And Savimbi did quite well indeed without the South Africans. That's why he was still strong in 1986.

Battle of Cuito Cuanavale - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cuito_Cuanavale


The Battle of Cuito Cuanavale was a series of engagements between the Cuban-backed Armed Forces for the Liberation of Angola (FAPLA), and the South African Defence Force (SADF), ..... General Arnaldo Ochoa, a veteran of the 1976 Angola campaign and of tank battles in Ethiopia, was made overall commander of the ...

It's pretty clear our different recollection of history is determined by local politics. The strange thing in the claim that Savimbi and the SADF defeating the Cubans and Angolans is that within 2 years Namibia was freed of the yoke of white minority South African backed rule and Angola eventually was free of South African troops.

The battle of Cuito Cuanavale is told differently to Americans and modern South Africans - you are a product of American education and cold war thinking and I am a product of education and life in Southern Africa. Your sources will support your record and mine will support a different one. Strangely in your world, Namibia and South Africa are somehow not currently under white minority rule...

Why is that?

 

[Jack Hays]

It's pretty clear our different recollection of history is determined by local politics. The strange thing in the claim that Savimbi and the SADF defeating the Cubans and Angolans is that within 2 years Namibia was freed of the yoke of white minority South African backed rule and Angola eventually was free of South African troops.

The battle of Cuito Cuanavale is told differently to Americans and modern South Africans - you are a product of American education and cold war thinking and I am a product of education and life in Southern Africa. Your sources will support your record and mine will support a different one. Strangely in your world, Namibia and South Africa are somehow not currently under white minority rule...

Why is that?

Actually, my version reflects the views of the South African veterans of the period. The linked history is actually too friendly to the Cubans. The South Africans were ultimately unsuccessful because their policy was wrong-headed. That does not devalue the victories of their military professionals. In this they are like the East Germans, who built the most powerful instruments of state control in history, but lost their state because it was founded on wrong-headed policy.

 

[braindrain]

Another form of exploitation will take over. The place is gonna wind up an offshore Disney World playground for white bread tourists.

So wait a minute. Why is multiculturalism and the changing of our culture here in America such a great thing supported by so many on the left but Cuba should maintain their own culture and not have it interfered with by people from another land. Seems rather hypocritical to me.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Actually, my version reflects the views of the South African veterans of the period. The linked history is actually too friendly to the Cubans. The South Africans were ultimately unsuccessful because their policy was wrong-headed. That does not devalue the victories of their military professionals. In this they are like the East Germans, who built the most powerful instruments of state control in history, but lost their state because it was founded on wrong-headed policy.

Like I said, despite this record of outstanding military achievement in repeatedly defeating SWAPO and the Cubans and with American financial (as well as military support through mercenaries) South Africa was kicked out of Namibia and Angola.

I have no doubt you are 100% certain of your version of history but as I said, the oil rich peach of Angola and the buffer of Namibia were no longer within South Africa's grasp. I am not surprised you see it differently in your universe. Your educational and political background won't allow it.

 

[Jack Hays]

Like I said, despite this record of outstanding military achievement in repeatedly defeating SWAPO and the Cubans and with American financial (as well as military support through mercenaries) South Africa was kicked out of Namibia and Angola.

I have no doubt you are 100% certain of your version of history but as I said, the oil rich peach of Angola and the buffer of Namibia were no longer within South Africa's grasp. I am not surprised you see it differently in your universe. Your educational and political background won't allow it.

Actually, it's my professional background. The US never, ever, sent mercenaries to assist the SADF. The US enacted sanctions on South Africa from 1986, and provided no assistance for years before that. Oil in Angola was never an issue.

 

[jonny5]

Come on guys. Castro did a lot of great things. Remember when he lifted the ban on microwaves?

 

[Infinite Chaos]

~ The US never, ever, sent mercenaries to assist the SADF ~

They wouldn't be "mercenaries" if sent by state govt....

The US enacted sanctions on South Africa from 1986, and provided no assistance for years before that.

Really. :doh

Oil in Angola was never an issue.

Hahahaha! Don't know which American company was pushing to get back in at the time to develop oil fields?

Anyhow, like I said - I don't expect you to challenge factual history and reality of the ground as you are a product of American thinking on Cuba, Africa, independence for African nations etc.

Let's just leave it that South Africa destroyed the Cubans, that South Africa still controls Namibia and that Angola has been run by Jonas Savimbi since 1988. Oh and P.W. Botha still runs South Africa or at least one of his National Party protege's do so.

G'nite, you've entertained me highly tonight.

 

[Jack Hays]

They wouldn't be "mercenaries" if sent by state govt....



Really. :doh



Hahahaha! Don't know which American company was pushing to get back in at the time to develop oil fields?

Anyhow, like I said - I don't expect you to challenge factual history and reality of the ground as you are a product of American thinking on Cuba, Africa, independence for African nations etc.

Let's just leave it that South Africa destroyed the Cubans, that South Africa still controls Namibia and that Angola has been run by Jonas Savimbi since 1988. Oh and P.W. Botha still runs South Africa or at least one of his National Party protege's do so.

G'nite, you've entertained me highly tonight.

Sadly, you are smugly content in a false narrative. Ignorance is your armor.

No American, official or otherwise, was sent to Angola to assist the SADF.

All American oil companies were advised US policy would not accommodate their special interests. Angolan oil simply wasn't important enough.

 

[Jack Hays]

They wouldn't be "mercenaries" if sent by state govt....



Really. :doh



Hahahaha! Don't know which American company was pushing to get back in at the time to develop oil fields?

Anyhow, like I said - I don't expect you to challenge factual history and reality of the ground as you are a product of American thinking on Cuba, Africa, independence for African nations etc.

Let's just leave it that South Africa destroyed the Cubans, that South Africa still controls Namibia and that Angola has been run by Jonas Savimbi since 1988. Oh and P.W. Botha still runs South Africa or at least one of his National Party protege's do so.

G'nite, you've entertained me highly tonight.

And btw, Namibian independence and the end of apartheid in South Africa were US policy goals.

 

[humbolt]

They wouldn't be "mercenaries" if sent by state govt....

That is incorrect. Mercenaries are mercenaries regardless of what entity employs them. Mercenaries are not part of state sponsored military organizations by definition, but a state can hire them, and they do. They remain mercenaries.

 

[Jack Hays]

That is incorrect. Mercenaries are mercenaries regardless of what entity employs them. Mercenaries are not part of state sponsored military organizations by definition, but a state can hire them, and they do. They remain mercenaries.

Lots of ignorance in this topic area.

 

[SCitizen]

Rest in Peace.

Like all people he had sins and virtues. In some ways Communism was a positive force -- like Welfare. In other ways USA is a positive force -- like Freedom.

 

[SCitizen]

Can we have both Freedom and Welfare State? Scandinavia has.

They base their experience on both virtues and mistakes of Communism and Capitalism. The worst GULAG was in USSR -- in 1950 at the very peak they had incarceration rate like US South now.

 

[Jack Hays]

Can we have both Freedom and Welfare State? Scandinavia has.

They base their experience on both virtues and mistakes of Communism and Capitalism. The worst GULAG was in USSR -- in 1950 at the very peak they had incarceration rate like US South now.

But in the USSR you didn't have to commit a crime to get locked up.

 

[SCitizen]

But in the USSR you didn't have to commit a crime to get locked up.

Most people were in prison for theft. I agree that Soviet system was as harsh as the US System now, but theft during the national emergency in which USSR was in 1930s and '40s was a crime.

After 1953, less then 0.3% of prisoners were for political opposition.

 

[Jack Hays]

Most people were in prison for theft. I agree that Soviet system was as harsh as the US System now, but theft during the national emergency in which USSR was in 1930s and '40s was a crime.

After 1953, less then 0.3% of prisoners were for political opposition.

Not so much political opposition as caprice. They really didn't need a reason. Story from Dostoyevsky: Prisoner on train bound for Siberia complains that manifest specifies "Smirnov" but his name is "Ivanov." Prisoner says it's a case of mistaken identity. Guard nods with understanding, strikes through Smirnov and writes Ivanov. Problem solved.

 

[SCitizen]

Not so much political opposition as caprice. They really didn't need a reason. Story from Dostoyevsky: Prisoner on train bound for Siberia complains that manifest specifies "Smirnov" but his name is "Ivanov." Prisoner says it's a case of mistaken identity. Guard nods with understanding, strikes through Smirnov and writes Ivanov. Problem solved.

Dostoyevsky lived long before Communism. In my time, there were no more unjust imprisonments in USSR then there are in USA 2016.

 

[Jack Hays]

Dostoyevsky lived long before Communism. In my time, there were no more unjust imprisonments in USSR then there are in USA 2016.

The Dostoyevsky vignette was repeated throughout the Soviet era because it resonated. You saw what you wanted to see.

 

[SCitizen]

The Dostoyevsky vignette was repeated throughout the Soviet era because it resonated.

I do not think more innocent people were among 2.7 million prisoners in USSR 1950 then among 2.5 million prisoners in USA 2016.