Fences/Walls on USA borders, Yea or Nay? And if so, why?

[The Mark]

So, I was perusing one of the recent threads on Immigration, and these questions occurred to me:

Can a case be made for construction of walls/fences/barriers on some or all of the land borders (and perhaps some sea borders? Dunno how that would work...) of the US?

If you support such, why?

If you oppose such, Why?

And, whether you support or oppose such, are there variables involved that might convince you to switch?

And other questions in that vein.

 

[The Mark]

And, to answer my own question.

Hmm, "Other", I think.

I personally think border walls/fences/barriers have a couple basic and multiple more complicated pros and cons.

A basic pro is that a barrier (in theory, if built correctly) would free up border patrol agents to watch areas where fences were not, or places most likely to have people attempt a breach.

A basic con ties directly into the pro - If border agents are not watching an area, someone might find a way to breach the barrier without attracting notice. Then again, that could happen even if...

So over all, that might be a slight pro.

There are many more complicated pros/cons, as I see it.

There's political and moral considerations (more so the first, probably).

Depending on how the barrier is constructed (land mines are probably a bad idea, although effective :2razz, other issues might arise.

Monetary (as in, how much spent on initial costs and upkeep for the barrier) is surely a consideration, as depending on how it is funded, issues could arise - For example, if it were funded like the military [outside the navy, I think], congress could simply stop funding it if they so desired, and it might fall into disrepair.

But, overall, I would probably support a limited (as in, only in some sections, to “funnel” any persons wishing to cross the border) barrier of a non-damaging nature (as in, no nuclear land mines :mrgreen: ).

That said, the cost : benefit ratio would need to be favorable as well (as in, it would probably be too expensive to build a barrier in this area, and due to the nature (pun intended) of said area, not many people attempt to cross anyway.

/shrug.

 

[pbrauer]

No, a thousands times no. They will not work, people will be able to go over and under any fence built. Very expensive to build and maintain, We need comprehensive immigration reform.

 

[samsmart]

I don't think they'll work, and I don't want my tax revenue to go towards them. There are other ways to deal with the illegal immigration problem, namely legalize drugs here so Mexico, Latin America, and South America can develop their economies from those markets instead of having them be control by criminal cartels.

 

[The Mark]

No, a thousand times no. They will not work, people will be able to go over and under any fence built. Very expensive to build and maintain, We need comprehensive immigration reform.

Well, really, I was thinking more along the lines of preventing those who would not immigrate legally even if the process took 5 mins of filling out paperwork, and a picture.

Sure, they are a probably a minority (at least, along the southern border) of the total, but they are the ones I am most concerned about keeping out of the country.

Terrorists, criminals, drug transporters, etc.

They most likely have no desire to be on any kind of list voluntarily, so immigration reform (as in, I assume, streamlining of some sort, among other things) would have little effect on such.

 

[Patria Antiqua]

Land mines.

 

[The Mark]

Land mines.

Howstuffworks "How Landmines Work"

:mrgreen:

 

[Patria Antiqua]

Howstuffworks "How Landmines Work"

:mrgreen:

You win.

Nuclear mines.

 

[marduc]

nay and remove the incentives causing such a porous border, primarily by ending the multi billion dollar incentive to cross our border that black market drug distribution creates, no wall will stop the motivation to find a way in created by this potential revenue.

We build a 20 foot wall, they tunnel under it or get a 22 foot ladder.

We also need a MUCH better system to verify a potential employees status before hire, and enforce severe penalties for knowingly employing someone who is not legally entitled to work here (as well as putting the illegal worker on a bus back home when they are caught).

 

[The Mark]

nay and remove the incentives causing such a porous border, primarily by ending the multi billion dollar incentive to cross our border that black market drug distribution creates, no wall will stop the motivation to find a way in created by this potential revenue.

Well, it depends on the wall.

And how, exactly, would you remove the drug "black market"?

We build a 20 foot wall, they tunnel under it or get a 22 foot ladder.

I don't think any sane person would suggest just a simple wall, if we actually decided to build a barrier of some sort...

We also need a MUCH better system to verify a potential employees status before hire, and enforce severe penalties for knowingly employing someone who is not legally entitled to work here (as well as putting the illegal worker on a bus back home when they are caught).

Agreed.

Perhaps, we have a barrier with multiple automated documentation stations that take DNA samples (for examination later, till tech is improved), fingerprints, pictures, and such, in a time frame of 5-30 mins, thereafter the entrant has a work visa?

Oh, and of course, nuclear land mines. :mrgreen:

 

[The Giant Noodle]

On the Mexico border and there should be landmines along with orders of shoot to kill.

 

[EnigmaO01]

No, a thousands times no. They will not work, people will be able to go over and under any fence built. Very expensive to build and maintain, We need comprehensive immigration reform.

Ditto! If the Vietcong could go over a fence under fire with a homemade ladder I don't see how a motivated allien can't do it when no one is watching.

Wouldn't it make more sense and be cheaper to enforce the laws here regarding hiring illegals therefore eliminating the incentive to come here?

 

[Cephus]

Yes, although it doesn't necessarily have to be physical fences, or solely physical fences. I'm all in favor of using whatever technological devices we can that will stop anyone and everyone from crossing the border illegally, including lethal force.

 

[The Mark]

Ditto! If the Vietcong could go over a fence under fire with a homemade ladder I don't see how a motivated alien can't do it when no one is watching.

Wouldn't it make more sense and be cheaper to enforce the laws here regarding hiring illegals therefore eliminating the incentive to come here?

Again, no sane person, given today's tech, is likely to suggest a simple wall.

Cameras, lasers, satellites, drones, etc., etc.

And it’s not the working illegal immmigrants I’m most worried about – it’s the criminals and terrorists.

 

[ender1]

The majestic North American Cheetah. About 10,000 or 15,000 should do it.

 

[marduc]

Well, it depends on the wall.

And how, exactly, would you remove the drug "black market"?

Legalized drugs and controlled distribution.

The full "how exactly" and the reasons and arguments behind this position are beyond the scope of this thread (feel free to look at my signature link though), but our border situation is created in a large part by our drug policy and our drug demand.

I don't think any sane person would suggest just a simple wall, if we actually decided to build a barrier of some sort...

My statement on the 22' ladder was for the most part figurative, but how much money are we to throw at this? that is ~2200 miles of fence there to go high tech on, and it still probably would not work. There is still that issue of a massive incentive to find holes in it, smugglers will find a way through.

 

[The Mark]

The majestic North American Cheetah. About 10,000 or 15,000 should do it.

I recommend mass cloning and genetic manipulation to increase their individual ability. :mrgreen:

 

[The Mark]

Legalized drugs and controlled distribution.

The full scope of the "how exactly" and the reasons and arguments behind this position are beyond the scope of this thread (feel free to look at my signature link though), but our border situation is created in a large part by our drug policy and our drug demand.

It could be argued that it's not beyond the scope of this thread, as I never specified what type of barrier, and removing incentives to cross might be considered a sort of barrier...probably pushing it, however.

I agree with you that drug trafficking is a large part of the incentive for illegal border crossings.

As to complete legalization of drugs (of any sort, I assume, without reading your linked thread), I'm on the fence about it (pun intended). I personally dislike the state-run liquor store idea, which would likely be the model for what you describe.

And since many drugs do cause harm to those who use them, it seems unlikely, given the current mindset in D.C., that any leadership in the near (and probably far) future is going to legalize their use (as obviously, we cannot think for ourselves).

My statement on the 22' ladder was for the most part figurative, but how much money are we to throw at this? that is ~2200 miles of fence there to go high tech on, and it still probably would not work. There is still that issue of a massive incentive to find holes in it, smugglers will find a way through.

If we are going to build anything, I have always liked the idea of more of a “funnel” system. Fences with deliberate holes, channeling the majority of those crossing towards border patrol units.

And I was including the US – Canada Border, so the total is likely more than ~2200 miles.

Probably closer to ~8,000-10,000 miles, if you include the Canada – Alaska border…

 

[Kal'Stang]

Shoot to kill with no exceptions. After killing a few hundred I'm sure the rest would get the hint and stop trying to run the border. Next instead of fineing companies for hiring illegals take the companies away and run a pick your name from a hat type lotto and give it to the person that wins the lotto. Also make it to where the former owner or close family member cannot enter that lotto. Send the owner to jail for a minimum of 2 years on the first offense 5 years for second offense 10 years for third offense (assuming they start up a new company) no chance of parole. Use same tactic for anyone that rents an apartment or home to an illegal. I think companies will take the hint soon enough. In order to catch companies that hire illegals make it a mandatory 6 month employee check for all employees done by a trained and certified private business which is also checked for honesty by a random government offical every 6 months.

 

[Kal'Stang]

If we are going to build anything, I have always liked the idea of more of a “funnel” system. Fences with deliberate holes, channeling the majority of those crossing towards border patrol units.

And I was including the US – Canada Border, so the total is likely more than ~2200 miles.

Probably closer to ~8,000-10,000 miles, if you include the Canada – Alaska border…

Good idea in general except that once people realize whats going on they will soon start making their own holes. And with illegals being returned to across the border and coming back a week later such a funnel system would soon be found out.

 

[digsbe]

I voted the 3rd option. I think they should, but they also need to strongly enforce immigration laws and tracking businesses that hire illegals. It's far to easy for them to lie and obtain jobs. Building a fence/wall will help a little, but we must focus within our borders as well, not just along them.

 

[jamesrage]

So, I was perusing one of the recent threads on Immigration, and these questions occurred to me:

Can a case be made for construction of walls/fences/barriers on some or all of the land borders (and perhaps some sea borders? Dunno how that would work...) of the US?

If you support such, why?

If you oppose such, Why?

And, whether you support or oppose such, are there variables involved that might convince you to switch?

And other questions in that vein.

I support building a wall and fences on the border.The harder it is to cross the less people that will be able to come into the US illegally in the US. You do not leave a faucet running at full blast just because there might be some leaks.Preferable I would like one way exits with no border checks in order to make it easier for those wishing to leave the US. That said a wall is only part of the solution, we should do what Oklahoma and Arizona have done to deter illegal immigration and encourage illegals to leave. We should also repeal part of the INS act of 1965 that allows for the chain migration of relatives other than spouse or minor children. Doing these things would remove incentives for people to stay here illegally..

 

[The Mark]

Good idea in general except that once people realize what’s going on they will soon start making their own holes. And with illegal’s being returned to across the border and coming back a week later such a funnel system would soon be found out.

Well, the actual fence would only be part of my imagined barrier.

Removing incentives to cross is part of it as well.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Moat + sharks with laser beams, followed by a jungle of rabid koalas and then a KY wrestling match with a T1000.
Not to deter illegal border crossers but because it sounds cool.

If you make it through all those, you get automatic citizenship plus a trophy.

 

[The Mark]

Moat + sharks with laser beams, followed by a jungle of rabid koalas and then a KY wrestling match with a T1000.
Not to deter illegal border crossers but because it sounds cool.

If you make it through all those, you get automatic citizenship plus a trophy.

How the hell do we be build a jungle on the US - Canadian border, let alone the near-desert (in some areas) US - Mexico border?

And besides, don't animals with rabies die after a short while, from the rabies? I sense an impending decline in the koala population…

For that matter, where do we get a T1000?

The moat with shark-mounted lasers might be possible, but it would still take a hell of a lot of water, and I understand they may have this water shortage issue in the southwest.

Still though, if we had all that, the auto citizenship plus trophy might be in order. :mrgreen: