Feminists? In my games? It's more likely than you think.

[ZapFinch42]

In which case, it is actually you who is missing the point of my original argument. I was responding to a post made by CaptainAdverse which actually did make specific mention of the regularity of the "improbably tiny and pretty women kicking ass and taking names" trope in media.

You can hardly deny that it often tends to be highly sexualized. This is true of everything from Wonder Woman to Charlie's Angels. It's even true of more recent programs like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Veronica Mars, Alias, and Doll House.

If you would be so kind as to point out were The Cap'n referred to "improbably tiny and pretty women kicking ass and taking names", I'd be much obliged

"I've never had much problem with females in video games, ever since I got into Resident Evil back in 1997. I recognize that some females are kick-ass (like Hit Girl ) but I never got into the "Zena, Warrior Princess" thing.

No, my biggest complaint is seeing so many Sci-Fi, Horror, and Fantasy books coming out with Female warrior heros. I liked Honor Harrington as a capable female tactician; but because she was a ship commander, not a "hand-to-hand" warrior. Now we have all these "combat women" hack and slash warrior types making up more than 50% of the literature and I'm like WTF!!??

I've always thought these genres were male-oriented, i.e. mostly men read that stuff and the heroes were male role models. Women seemed to focus on suspense romance and gothic romance...hell w/e romance. I still don't see all that many women reading Sci-fi, horror, and fantasy so is there something I am missing in today's boys and young men? How did they become such wussies that they can follow fictional female warrior types as "role-models."

Someone clue me in please..."


HHHhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Seems somebody might have jumped to an incredibly sexist conclusion.....

 

[ZapFinch42]

She's generally in charge, independent, self-reliant, opinionated and capable of influencing large groups of people. Granted, I only watched it a couple times (for the not so subtle lesbo-eroticism), but Xena is no push-over. Am I saying that there are not sexist overtones as well? No. That's why I specified "not entirely true".

It is a fair point characterwise but I stand by my statement insofar as objectifying her is concerned.

 

[Cephus]

I never said they did, but there is some pretty despicable crap that goes on in gaming circles. I've known plenty of women who hide their gender in online games and plenty who are harassed. Nobody has the right not to be offended, but nobody should be abused and harassed just for entering a public space.

I don't think most people are. Whether you like how some people act or not, and I can certainly agree that I've seen some real asshats online that I don't want to be around, but I don't assume that just because there are jerks, that they are being jerks because I'm male or if I was female or whatever. Maybe they're just jerks.

Remember that Aris Bakhtanians guy? The one who said that sexual harassment, ugly and demeaning sexual harassment, is an inherent part of gaming culture, specifically fighting games. That the games aren't really worth playing without really ugly misogyny. That's pretty skewed.

So you pick one guy and think he represents all male gamers? Seriously? Can I pick an fanatical feminist and say she represents all women?

 

[Hijinx]

I never denied progress, there's always progress. That's a fact of life.

I'm concerned with some people apparently feeling that there's a time and place for considering sexism. That's wrong, it should always be a consideration, regardless of how bad.

I agree with what you're saying. Just simply giving you an indicator that there is progress, especially with LBGT since you seemed interested in the subject. Like you said sexism should always be considered, and I'm saying that it is considered when people view that it's a legitimate problem. I want to avoid making sweeping generalizations and assume that everyone is unwilling to discuss the issue, because I know that it's untrue.

I guess my problem is that I'm sick of seeing people on all sides who don't see a problem if it's there or think there is a problem when there isn't. If it's a problem then bring it up, but if gender wasn't a factor then there's little need to make assumptions and claim that it was.

 

[Gathomas88]

If you would be so kind as to point out were The Cap'n referred to "improbably tiny and pretty women kicking ass and taking names", I'd be much obliged

"I've never had much problem with females in video games, ever since I got into Resident Evil back in 1997. I recognize that some females are kick-ass (like Hit Girl ) but I never got into the "Zena, Warrior Princess" thing.

No, my biggest complaint is seeing so many Sci-Fi, Horror, and Fantasy books coming out with Female warrior heros. I liked Honor Harrington as a capable female tactician; but because she was a ship commander, not a "hand-to-hand" warrior. Now we have all these "combat women" hack and slash warrior types making up more than 50% of the literature and I'm like WTF!!??

I've always thought these genres were male-oriented, i.e. mostly men read that stuff and the heroes were male role models. Women seemed to focus on suspense romance and gothic romance...hell w/e romance. I still don't see all that many women reading Sci-fi, horror, and fantasy so is there something I am missing in today's boys and young men? How did they become such wussies that they can follow fictional female warrior types as "role-models."

Someone clue me in please..."


HHHhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Seems somebody might have jumped to an incredibly sexist conclusion.....

...Seriously?

He specifically mentions his distaste for Xena (i.e. basically the trope codifier for improbable fan-service warrior women in modern media) before immediately launching off onto a whole tirade about the ridiculousness of "combat women" as a general concept.

No offense dude, but you might want to work on your reading comprehension.

 

[ecofarm]

I guess my problem is that I'm sick of seeing people on all sides who don't see a problem if it's there or think there is a problem when there isn't. If it's a problem then bring it up, but if gender wasn't a factor then there's little need to make assumptions and claim that it was.

Gender is always an issue and very very rarely not a problem, such is the world. We've only just begun to respect women and minorities.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

Why do lots of men play as women?

You're assuming they all do it because of abuse. Maybe they just enjoy it? Maybe they like the models better? There's lots of reasons why they might do it, you can't assume that because some complain about it, they all have the same problems.

Ask the guys who play female characters.

In the face of all the evidence, this is nothing but apologetics for harassers and abusers.

Or that women are more likely to identify non-threatening behavior as threatening, maybe. Do these studies actually see the abuse, or do they just take the words of the people involved that they were abused? There are lots of people out there, especially liberals, who are much more likely to report *FEELING* abused, even if they were not demonstrably abused.

Here's a bit of helpful advice. Just because someone feels they have been abused doesn't mean they actually have, they could just be over-sensitive.

They were conducted with fake user accounts. They simply assigned a gender to it, and watched what happened. They weren't using self-reporting from real female players.

Here's some helpful advice for you. You do yourself no favors defending people like that.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

Frankly, so what?

I hate to play the ogre here...

Then don't.

Women traditionally haven't cared about video games one way or the other.

Hate to break it to you, but 45% of gamers are women.

They hide because they receive everything from lewd sexual comments to outright threats of violence -- just for being there.

I don't think there is any excuse for abusing people. I don't think it's ok to excuse grown adults for having any responsibility for their actions just because you hate those uppity women who think they should be allowed to play. Sorry. I just don't buy what you're selling.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

So what are you saying exactly? That if women are harassing and threatening other women, that would be ok, but if it's men doing it online, then it's bad. I just don't get your angle.

Um... where exactly did you get that?

I don't care who is harassing whom. But the simple fact is that I don't see anyone complaining about threatening women in gaming, so...

 

[Gathomas88]

Then don't.

Reality isn't going to let you down easy, and neither will I.

Hate to break it to you, but 45% of gamers are women.

And what kinds of games do most of them play? Are they into supposedly "sexist" big budget studio titles like COD and Gears of War, or do they mainly stick to comparatively more cutesy smartphone apps, browser games, and MMOs?

It is a legitimate question.

Even if women do make up such a significant portion of the market as you claim, they rather clearly are not making any kind of impact on overall sales meaningful enough to cause the gaming industry to seriously rethink its practices. Again, the simple fact of the matter here is that, if women want to be recognized as a force to be reckoned with in the video game market, they are going to have to step up and make it happen for themselves, not expect it to be simply handed over to them for political correctness' sake alone.

Ineffectual ranting about the vaguely defined "evils of sexism" simply isn't going to ever get you what you want here.

Any potential reversal, or even cancelling out, of the prevailing male themes that pervade the gaming medium is ultimately going to require nothing less than a fundamental restructuring of how the industry functions. It is going to require that significant numbers of female game developers offer up an equally significant number of high quality alternatives to what the gaming industry has traditionally provided for a sustained period of time.

If women manage to pull something like this off without bringing the overall quality of the material the gaming industry produces down in the process, so be it. It's no skin off of my nose.

On the other hand, however; if such a state of affairs fails to ever materialize, I can honestly say that I really couldn't care less. I don't see any reason why we should mess around with things that work perfectly fine just the way they are simply because they might happen to offend the delicate sensibilities of a fringe minority of extremists. A fringe minority of extremists, I might add, who apparently can't even convince the very people they are supposedly trying to "help" to go along with their vision of the gaming industry's future.

I frankly don't think that the majority of video games out today are even all that sexist in the first place.

They hide because they receive everything from lewd sexual comments to outright threats of violence -- just for being there.

I don't think there is any excuse for abusing people. I don't think it's ok to excuse grown adults for having any responsibility for their actions just because you hate those uppity women who think they should be allowed to play. Sorry. I just don't buy what you're selling.

Everyone's an asshole over the internet. :roll:

As the old saying goes, "if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen."

Besides, what are you suggesting should even be done about such things in the first place?

Game devs hold no more control over the attitudes held by their customers than you do.

Frankly, even besides that, the fact of the matter remains that we currently live in a "free" country. People can behave like knuckle-dragging sexist morons as often, as loudly, and with as much belligerent vitriol as they damn well please. There simply isn't a damn thing that you, I, or anyone else could possibly do to stop them.

You should honestly just ignore them and get on with your life as such.

 

[Paschendale]

So you pick one guy and think he represents all male gamers? Seriously? Can I pick an fanatical feminist and say she represents all women?

Okay, I foolishly assumed that people knew about the incident or read about it, and knew about the overwhelming support he got from a lot of douchey male gamers who completely agreed that sexism and harassment are an integral part of gaming. There's a faction, a faction that wants it to be an all boys club. That faction goes to great lengths to ruin the hobby for a lot of other people.

 

[Cephus]

Okay, I foolishly assumed that people knew about the incident or read about it, and knew about the overwhelming support he got from a lot of douchey male gamers who completely agreed that sexism and harassment are an integral part of gaming. There's a faction, a faction that wants it to be an all boys club. That faction goes to great lengths to ruin the hobby for a lot of other people.

Then that's a faction of dicks. Big deal. There are factions of dicks in pretty much every group, that doesn't mean the whole group follows or approves of the actions of the dicks.

 

[Cephus]

I don't care who is harassing whom. But the simple fact is that I don't see anyone complaining about threatening women in gaming, so...

So how many of these women are going to the police with these threats? Threatening someone is illegal, even online, and police do take reports seriously. So how many women are actually filing complaints and how many are just complaining? If these are credible threats, the police will take them seriously, just because you hear something online you don't like doesn't give you the right to change how others act. Don't like it? Don't listen.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

So how many of these women are going to the police with these threats? Threatening someone is illegal, even online, and police do take reports seriously. So how many women are actually filing complaints and how many are just complaining? If these are credible threats, the police will take them seriously, just because you hear something online you don't like doesn't give you the right to change how others act. Don't like it? Don't listen.

I haven't the faintest. But, like in real life, I suspect many are too scared to do so. The police usually don't do a very good job of actually protecting people who receive threats, even if they do seriously look into the harassment.

I'm sorry, but I just find it mind-boggling that you're defending people who act like abusive ogres to anyone with a vagina who dares to log on. People absolutely have a right to complain about it, and the burden of change rests entirely with the people who are being abusive.

 

[Cephus]

I haven't the faintest. But, like in real life, I suspect many are too scared to do so. The police usually don't do a very good job of actually protecting people who receive threats, even if they do seriously look into the harassment.

But the fact that they refuse to report it shows that they're not particularly afraid that these threats will be carried out, anonymity online works both ways, most threats cannot possibly be carried out because invariably, it's very hard for you to be located. There are lots of people who claim, because it supports their agenda, that they have been threatened, yet can neither produce any evidence that it's actually happened, nor are they willing to take the steps that are necessary to have the problem taken care of. You're just making excuses for such things.

I'm sorry, but I just find it mind-boggling that you're defending people who act like abusive ogres to anyone with a vagina who dares to log on. People absolutely have a right to complain about it, and the burden of change rests entirely with the people who are being abusive.

I'm not defending anyone, I'm stating the facts. You have no right whatsoever not to be offended, if someone says something that offends you, too bad. Political correctness is asinine. Now if someone actually threatens your life, welfare or financial well-being, that's another matter, but we're not seeing that happen. We're not seeing women being regularly physically attacked in the real world by people who have threatened them online and we're not seeing women making reports to law enforcement officials, showing they're not all that worried about anything happening.

This is yet another case where liberals are only reacting emotionally, they're not bothering to actually think about the evidence, it's all about feeling good.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

But the fact that they refuse to report it shows that they're not particularly afraid that these threats will be carried out, anonymity online works both ways, most threats cannot possibly be carried out because invariably, it's very hard for you to be located. There are lots of people who claim, because it supports their agenda, that they have been threatened, yet can neither produce any evidence that it's actually happened, nor are they willing to take the steps that are necessary to have the problem taken care of. You're just making excuses for such things.

I just explained to you that many women don't report even in real life with people they know have the capacity to hurt them, because there is a lack of protection for victims who report.

It's actually very easy for someone to locate you on the internet, if they have a bit of technological knowledge -- which a lot of gamers do.

I'm not defending anyone, I'm stating the facts. You have no right whatsoever not to be offended, if someone says something that offends you, too bad. Political correctness is asinine. Now if someone actually threatens your life, welfare or financial well-being, that's another matter, but we're not seeing that happen. We're not seeing women being regularly physically attacked in the real world by people who have threatened them online and we're not seeing women making reports to law enforcement officials, showing they're not all that worried about anything happening.

This is yet another case where liberals are only reacting emotionally, they're not bothering to actually think about the evidence, it's all about feeling good.

Yes, you are.

There is a difference between political correctness and not being an abusive asshole. If you cannot see that difference, I don't know what the hell to tell you.

Do you see me saying anywhere that we should put any laws in place?

 

[Gathomas88]

Do you see me saying anywhere that we should put any laws in place?

What exactly is your point then?

"People are dicks?" You don't think that everyone here isn't already well aware of that fact?

You're basically just complaining for complaint's sake alone.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

What exactly is your point then?

"People are dicks?" You don't think that everyone here isn't already well aware of that fact?

You're basically just complaining for complaint's sake alone.

I've stated my point several times, including in the post you clipped. But I'm well aware of the futility of trying to work with your reading comprehension.

 

[Gathomas88]

I've stated my point several times, including in the post you clipped. But I'm well aware of the futility of trying to work with your reading comprehension.

Sooo... Again, what you're basically saying is that a small portion of male gamers are poopy heads to women, it makes you sad, and that you consider this to be a bad thing.

Has anyone here actually disputed that?

What would you have us, or the gaming industry in general, do about it? If your last few comments are any indication, the answer to this question would appear to be "nothing."

As such, all you're really doing here is complaining for sake of complaining.

If you don't like the way people in a certain place behave, and you honestly believe that avoiding such people at the place in question isn't a feasible possibility, you should stop going there.

It's really just that simple. What else really needs to be said about it? :shrug:

 

[Cephus]

I just explained to you that many women don't report even in real life with people they know have the capacity to hurt them, because there is a lack of protection for victims who report.

And whose fault is that? Seriously. You're just making excuses for people to act irresponsibly. Emotion, emotion, emotion, no intelligence, that's the hallmark of liberalism.

It's actually very easy for someone to locate you on the internet, if they have a bit of technological knowledge -- which a lot of gamers do.

Not so much, especially in a game where none of the players have any access to IP addresses and the like. And if you don't want to be found, it's quite easy to mask your IP.

There is a difference between political correctness and not being an abusive asshole. If you cannot see that difference, I don't know what the hell to tell you.

People are going to be the way they are, if you can't understand that, I don't know what to tell you either. The world isn't going to be a magical happy land. Deal with it.

Do you see me saying anywhere that we should put any laws in place?

Who said anything about laws? Quote where I even used that word.

 

[Cephus]

It's really just that simple. What else really needs to be said about it? :shrug:

Reality. It's wasted on the liberal.

 

[Redress]

This is the kind of thing that makes me hate feminism. They take something that doesn't even matter and turns into a big****ing deal for no reason.

It is easy to say that when you are not being insulted, stalked, harassed and generally treated like **** based on your gender while you simply to and enjoy your hobby.

 

[Redress]

Treating people better? Sure. That assumes that anyone is being treated badly in the first place and it's not just the perception of abuse going on. Thinking there's abuse and there actually being abuse are often two different things. Nobody has any right whatsoever not to be offended.

AS linked earlier in this thread, a player with a female voice playing a game and using voice chat receives 3 times the abuse of a male voice.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

I'm not a fan of hyper sexualised female characters who wear ridiculous clothing but if the stat is correct that 45% of gamers are women with many games as they are now, well it seems mighty patriarchal and condescending to adapt to a perception of what they should like rather than what they do like as stats suggest.

This comment doesn't make any sense. It seems that you're arguing that the fact that 45% of gamers are women is evidence that female gamer are fine with games as they are now and that, in turn, feminist criticisms of games are patriarchal and condescending. If that is, in fact, what you are arguing, it's nonsensical because

1) Just because 45% of gamers are women doesn't mean those women don't have issues with the gaming industry. People often have issues with institutions in which they participate.

2) You're assuming that the feminists critiquing video games do not play games themselves. If they do - which, from what I've read, many of them do - then, by your logic, they would be acting condescending and patriarchal towards themselves which is nonsensical.

3) Acknowledging problems within the gaming industry relative to women does not require that all women support your efforts. You seem to think that feminists should only point to problems if they have the support of all other women. How silly. If that was the standard feminists used, our society never would have allowed women to vote.

 

[Morality Games]

I honestly don't know how anyone can get upset at a call to treat people better and present a more accurate view of human demographics.

Feminism is an elaborate movement. It has achieved some good and has worthy goals, but there is a lot of baggage and pit falls that can make people reluctant to accept it.

While power relations have been historically lopsided in favor of men, there were a number of not even discreet ways women were capable of exercising influence in earlier periods. Feminists have tended to stress how inaccessible political roles like the British monarchy were to women, and place emphasis how women were dis-empowered by arranged marriages. Therefore a woman becoming Senator seems like that much more of a triumph.

In truth, women were able to use those marriages to influence both sides of very powerful extended families stretching the European continent. Aristocratic women could often pursue policies and agendas with effectiveness comparable to that of men. Even in the lower echelons of society, women were able to use their natural talent as networkers to acquire influence in the community. On the whole, feminism tends to understate how much effective power women exercised throughout history. They were shoved into certain roles, but through those roles they could frequently exercise power and decision-making in human social development.

As far video games go, part of it is that it is difficult for men and women to share the same fiction, or even the same porn. Thanks in no small part to neurochemical differences, we have disagreeing expectations of what drama should be like.