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Fellow republicans: explain why the shutdown and default is good fiscal policy.

I'll concede that when you concede that what Congress wants to spend money is none Obama's ****ing business. His job is to execute the law, not make it.
You will concede how Treasury operates.....when I concede to your further straw?

Screw that, remain with your falsehoods and ignorance of govt for all I care.
 
You will concede how Treasury operates.....when I concede to your further straw?

Screw that, remain with your falsehoods and ignorance of govt for all I care.

No problem. BTW this from Obama's Inaugural address.

"...those of us who manage the public's dollars will be held to account, to spend wisely, reform bad habits, and do our business in the light of day, because only then can we restore the vital trust between a people and their government."
 
"...those of us who manage the public's dollars will be held to account, to spend wisely, reform bad habits, and do our business in the light of day, because only then can we restore the vital trust between a people and their government."
Is this a final attempt to prove that the Treasury "spends"?
 
If you had been paying any attention you would have noticed that the discussion involved Medicare/Medicaid payments to providers.

If you had read my article, you would have seen that it dealt with Social Security. What Lew has said about Social Security is not factually accurate. So the subject that I addressed was whether Lew was speaking the truth or not.
 
This is a non-sequitur response to the fact that Lew is not lying about the fact that Treasury is facing a cash shortfall, hence the inability to pay Medicare/Medicaid providers.

You are changing the subject. You said that the various trust funds needed to be paid cash by issuing new debt. My point is that concern is not material. The new debt is offset by the fact that the government retiring a like amount of debt.
 
"If you shutdown the government, and that INCREASES government costs "

If you shutdown the government, it will not increase costs. That is just talking points 101.

You buy into the idea that the government just needs a few more trillion dollars to plan their way out of the debt problem. That is the essence of our difference of opinion. I see your solution isn't quitting your job - it is to give your wife a larger line of credit in hopes that she has learned her lesson.

If you shutdown government it does increase costs. Number one.. all those furloughed employees? Then were doing a job.. now that they aren't doing those jobs, there is going to be a backlog of work... for all sorts of things.. from processing VA claims, to maintenance on the parks etc.

And as any businessman knows.. what happens when you have a backlog of work and have to "catch up"? Overtime, or more employees. That means more cost.

We have government contractors for all sorts of things. Private businessman that contract with the government to do all sorts of things also. Right now.. they are not getting paid since they are locked out. So tell me genius... what do you think such a government contractor is going to do when it comes time to renegotiate their contract? Everyone is going to increase their price to deal with the increase risks of a government shutdown.

THEN you have the lost taxes because lost revenue from the private businesses such as the gas stations, stores, hotels etc that service customers to the national parks, the lost revenue from hunters and fisherman that are unable to access public lands as easily, so on and so forth.

The facts are this.. if you REALLY want to get out of the debt problem.. you have to do it in a responsible and smart manner... you do not kill your revenue, hurt your business, and ultimately create a larger debt. THATS what you are supporting.

We republicans had a deal that reduced the deficit and lowered spending with the democrats in the senate and Obama.. and we walked away from it over Obamacare. FACT.
 
If you had read my article, you would have seen that it dealt with Social Security. What Lew has said about Social Security is not factually accurate. So the subject that I addressed was whether Lew was speaking the truth or not.
Again, you are ignoring the fact that he is dealing with cash on hand, if you want to claim he is lying about cash on hand, go ahead and disprove his contention. You have not.
 
You are changing the subject.
Hogwash, I have been discussing the fact that the lack of cash on hand in the Treasury is going to cause a delayed payments to Medicare providers. You thought you could come in a distract with a non-sequitur about SS trust fund T-notes.
You said that the various trust funds needed to be paid cash by issuing new debt.
No, I absolutely did not.
My point is that concern is not material. The new debt is offset by the fact that the government retiring a like amount of debt.
Which has zero to do with Medicare providers getting delayed payment because of the lack of cash on hand at the Treasury.
 
The only problem with that thesis is no matter the reason, the Republicans would be blamed, the Democrats still would have claimed no negotiation, and we still would have had a shutdown. The root reason for the shutdown is the failure of both Houses to negotiate on spending bills, with a larger share of blame on the Senate who wont even consider a spending bill. They have taken one vote since July, and that was on the Helium Act.

I agree that there's larger political dysfunction that involves people from both parties and a convergence of generally weak leaders. That's the context S&P spoke about when it downgraded the U.S. credit rating. But this fight was a tactic launched by the Tea Party faction of the GOP. Given the linkage to the debt ceiling, a prospect that created the risk of national default at worst and a significant recession at best were the ceiling hit with no increase to quickly remedy the issue, it was an extreme tactic.

From a negotiating standpoint, it was a no-win effort. For a negotiation to succeed, each party must accommodate the other's needs (not maximum positions). The President needs his signature policy accomplishment. Therefore, material changes or repeal were never propositions he could accept. The Tea Party faction felt that it needed to delay or defund the ACA, but even as the entire GOP does not like the law, their opposition never approached the level of a need. Hence, at the end of the day, enough GOP Senators and Representatives voted to accept the compromise legislation that involved only a cosmetic ACA-related provision, one that could modestly enhance the law's operation, as elimination of possible fraud aids the legal framework.

Ironically, the linkage of the ACA to the debt ceiling/funding of government actually contributed to sustaining the law over the longer-term. Coverage of the continuing shutdown and looming possibility of default drowned out what was a rather rocky start to the law's implementation. As a result, public perceptions of the law were more favorable at the end of the impasse than they were preceding the impasse, even as the law got off to a rough start. However, there was neither the patience nor discipline to wait for actual data to become available and the emphasis was on repeal, not reform.

An attainable goal might have been a continuing resolution with modest reductions in spending and a larger budget conference for mandatory spending reform. Had a clean continuing resolution at somewhat lower spending levels been adopted, a compromise somewhat below current levels of spending would probably have been achievable. Deep spending cuts, almost certainly not.

Overall, the approach made no strategic sense. It resulted in economic losses estimated at $24 billion (some of which will be reversed in future quarters e.g., as furloughed workers receive back pay and spend some share of that income) and some that won't. It also led to some increase in short-term borrowing costs and some elevation in the nation's risk premium, developments that will lead to higher interest expenses than would otherwise have been the case. At the same time, the GOP's brand is damaged. Very likely that outcome assures that the GOP will not win the Senate in the 2014 elections. It also makes a number of GOP Senators who were potential Presidential candidates much less competitive nationally than might otherwise have been the case.
 
I agree that there's larger political dysfunction that involves people from both parties and a convergence of generally weak leaders. That's the context S&P spoke about when it downgraded the U.S. credit rating. But this fight was a tactic launched by the Tea Party faction of the GOP. Given the linkage to the debt ceiling, a prospect that created the risk of national default at worst and a significant recession at best were the ceiling hit with no increase to quickly remedy the issue, it was an extreme tactic.

From a negotiating standpoint, it was a no-win effort. For a negotiation to succeed, each party must accommodate the other's needs (not maximum positions). The President needs his signature policy accomplishment. Therefore, material changes or repeal were never propositions he could accept. The Tea Party faction felt that it needed to delay or defund the ACA, but even as the entire GOP does not like the law, their opposition never approached the level of a need. Hence, at the end of the day, enough GOP Senators and Representatives voted to accept the compromise legislation that involved only a cosmetic ACA-related provision, one that could modestly enhance the law's operation, as elimination of possible fraud aids the legal framework.

Ironically, the linkage of the ACA to the debt ceiling/funding of government actually contributed to sustaining the law over the longer-term. Coverage of the continuing shutdown and looming possibility of default drowned out what was a rather rocky start to the law's implementation. As a result, public perceptions of the law were more favorable at the end of the impasse than they were preceding the impasse, even as the law got off to a rough start. However, there was neither the patience nor discipline to wait for actual data to become available and the emphasis was on repeal, not reform.

An attainable goal might have been a continuing resolution with modest reductions in spending and a larger budget conference for mandatory spending reform. Had a clean continuing resolution at somewhat lower spending levels been adopted, a compromise somewhat below current levels of spending would probably have been achievable. Deep spending cuts, almost certainly not.

Overall, the approach made no strategic sense. It resulted in economic losses estimated at $24 billion (some of which will be reversed in future quarters e.g., as furloughed workers receive back pay and spend some share of that income) and some that won't. It also led to some increase in short-term borrowing costs and some elevation in the nation's risk premium, developments that will lead to higher interest expenses than would otherwise have been the case. At the same time, the GOP's brand is damaged. Very likely that outcome assures that the GOP will not win the Senate in the 2014 elections. It also makes a number of GOP Senators who were potential Presidential candidates much less competitive nationally than might otherwise have been the case.

The tea party reps are only a few people. They dont have the power to stop the House from passing a bill. You are right though that it might affect elections, because the tea party voters are going to remember how the Republicans gave the Dems everything they wanted. They will challenge republicans and either beat them, or cause them to lose.
 
Hogwash, I have been discussing the fact that the lack of cash on hand in the Treasury is going to cause a delayed payments to Medicare providers. You thought you could come in a distract with a non-sequitur about SS trust fund T-notes. No, I absolutely did not. Which has zero to do with Medicare providers getting delayed payment because of the lack of cash on hand at the Treasury.

Here is the exact quote which started the discussion :

"Even your own article makes clear that past cash revenues for the various trust funds are converted to Treasury Bonds. "

Those bonds can be converted to cash by the Treasury with something called a refinancing issue. It does not increase the level of debt.
 
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