Federal court rules students’ pro-gun shirts are protected by First Amendment

[aociswundumho]

Federal court rules students’ pro-gun shirts are protected by First Amendment | The College Fix

School officials claimed they ‘fail[ed] to convey a particularized message.’ Judge didn’t buy it.

www.thecollegefix.com

A federal judge swatted down this move in a consolidated case brought by students whose gun-themed clothing was banned on school grounds. Officials claimed the clothing "fail[ed] to convey a particularized message," so it wasn’t constitutionally protected.

From the ruling itself:

Not only did Plaintiffs intend to convey a clear message in wearing their shirts, it also seems clear that school authorities understood the message Plaintiffs were intending to convey, at least to the extent their message included an appreciation for the right to own firearms. School officials are alleged to have told both N.J. and A.L. that they were prohibited from wearing the shirts because of their depiction of firearms. Based on the allegations of the complaint, it at least appears that the school officials’ response to N.J.’s shirts was motivated by the very message N.J. sought to convey in a school setting. Each of the shirts at issue is therefore entitled to constitutional protection.

https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.wied.88814/gov.uscourts.wied.88814.23.0.pdf

Another win for free speech and another loss for progressivism.

 

[Emily L]

I don't know about that, Aoc. I mean, I'm a conservative, but I feel they should make a special case for schools and not allow such shirts there. Children are so impressionable and they might misinterpret what the shirt implies. Considering our sad history of schools and guns, it almost looks like it might be asking for trouble, regardless of the harmless intentions.


Don't get me wrong--I'm in favor of school guards having holstered guns--but having one on a student's shirt is just a little too suggestive.

 

[lemmiwinx]

In a world where a preschooler can get a criminal referral for making a gun with his fingers and saying bang bang I heartily welcome this court decision.

 

[Captain Adverse]

I don't know about that, Aoc. I mean, I'm a conservative, but I feel they should make a special case for schools and not allow such shirts there. Children are so impressionable and they might misinterpret what the shirt implies. Considering our sad history of schools and guns, it almost looks like it might be asking for trouble, regardless of the harmless intentions.


Don't get me wrong--I'm in favor of school guards having holstered guns--but having one on a student's shirt is just a little too suggestive.

I respectfully disagree.

Freedom of expression can't be one-sided.

IMO children are already "learning" under heavy-handed ideological indoctrination techniques which IMO do not belong in schools. Other than a basic "civics" class, they should be taught those skills needed to advance, reading, writing, science, math, and maybe some basic history.

Yet is seems they are being taught what is and what is not "free expression," and it seems to me it's all one-sided and that is anti-Liberty.

I speak as someone who did a stint as a high school teacher in the areas of Social Studies and Life Sciences (I have degrees in both areas). As well as a Youth in the 60's - early 70's who's seen the transitions first-hand.

IMO it is one thing to forbid profane and sexual "imagery," as well as overt extremist symbols (swastikas, KKK hoods, etc.). Quite another to forbid expressions in keeping with the Bill of Rights.

 

[Phys251]

I respectfully disagree.

Freedom of expression can't be one-sided.

IMO children are already "learning" under heavy-handed ideological indoctrination techniques which IMO do not belong in schools. Other than a basic "civics" class, they should be taught those skills needed to advance, reading, writing, science, math, and maybe some basic history.

Yet is seems they are being taught what is and what is not "free expression," and it seems to me it's all one-sided and that is anti-Liberty.

I speak as someone who did a stint as a high school teacher in the areas of Social Studies and Life Sciences (I have degrees in both areas). As well as a Youth in the 60's - early 70's who's seen the transitions first-hand.

IMO it is one thing to forbid profane and sexual "imagery," as well as overt extremist symbols (swastikas, KKK hoods, etc.). Quite another to forbid expressions in keeping with the Bill of Rights.

I don't mind free expression. But let's not forget that pre-coronavirus, school shootings were common. Not everyone believes that guns and schools mix.

 

[zsu2357]

="Emily L, post: 1073017969, member: 31449"]
I don't know about that, Aoc. I mean, I'm a conservative, but I feel they should make a special case for schools and not allow such shirts there. Children are so impressionable and they might misinterpret what the shirt implies. Considering our sad history of schools and guns, it almost looks like it might be asking for trouble, regardless of the harmless intentions.

Yes you're right schools have de-volved to the point I would home school mine. Which mostly they were. But now days especially.

Don't get me wrong--I'm in favor of school guards having holstered guns--but having one on a student's shirt is just a little too suggestive.

I suppose biting a pop tart into the shape of a gun is suggestive also or tearing a piece of paper?

Family of Md. boy suspended for 'Pop-Tart gun' wants his suspension record expunged

Family of Md. boy suspended for ?Pop-Tart gun? wants his suspension record expunged

wjla.com

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The same week as the horrendous story of a six-year-old cub scout being suspended and sent to reform school for bringing his cub scout mess kit to eat lunch (here), New York educators have added an…

jonathanturley.org

Boy, 6, Suspended For Making Gun Gesture with Hand | Free-Range Kids

www.freerangekids.com

Fifth-grader reprimanded for bringing paper ‘gun’ to school

Another fake gun has reportedly created problems for a young student. According to Philadelphia mother Dianna Kelly, who spoke with FOX 29 about the incident, her daughter, Melody Valentin, was given a sheet of paper by her grandfather that was torn and folded to look like a pistol. When another...

news.yahoo.com

And it just goes on and on. And that's not even bobby pins or necklaces. That list goes on forever. Where does this shit end at?

 

[zsu2357]

In a world where a preschooler can get a criminal referral for making a gun with his fingers and saying bang bang I heartily welcome this court decision.

Yeah I was busy typing. It is really pathetic.

 

[Chillfolks]

School uniforms would have nipped this in the bud. IMO uniforms would protect students from the overreaction of school administrators.

 

[Grim17]

I don't know about that, Aoc. I mean, I'm a conservative, but I feel they should make a special case for schools and not allow such shirts there. Children are so impressionable and they might misinterpret what the shirt implies. Considering our sad history of schools and guns, it almost looks like it might be asking for trouble, regardless of the harmless intentions.


Don't get me wrong--I'm in favor of school guards having holstered guns--but having one on a student's shirt is just a little too suggestive.

I understand where you're coming from. Personally, I think fashion when it comes to school students is major distraction, that often times can lead to conflict. I'm a proponent of school uniforms, which effectively removes any and all messages and statements by students. I had to wear a uniform for 3 years of my schooling and although I hated it back then, I realize now just how effective it was at eliminating conflict. When you make everyone dress alike it provides a greater opportunity for students to find common ground with each other.

.

 

[Rucker61]

I don't mind free expression. But let's not forget that pre-coronavirus, school shootings were common. Not everyone believes that guns and schools mix.

"Common"? In 2019, in 130,000 K-12 schools meeting 180 days a year, giving 23.4 million opportunities, there were less than thirty shootings involving students or staff during school hours.

 

[Emily L]

I respectfully disagree.

Freedom of expression can't be one-sided.

IMO children are already "learning" under heavy-handed ideological indoctrination techniques which IMO do not belong in schools. Other than a basic "civics" class, they should be taught those skills needed to advance, reading, writing, science, math, and maybe some basic history.

Yet is seems they are being taught what is and what is not "free expression," and it seems to me it's all one-sided and that is anti-Liberty.

I speak as someone who did a stint as a high school teacher in the areas of Social Studies and Life Sciences (I have degrees in both areas). As well as a Youth in the 60's - early 70's who's seen the transitions first-hand.

IMO it is one thing to forbid profane and sexual "imagery," as well as overt extremist symbols (swastikas, KKK hoods, etc.). Quite another to forbid expressions in keeping with the Bill of Rights.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, and this might be dramatizing (literally), but this is the kind of thing I'm afraid of in the early grades . . .

Sally: "I'm afraid of Johnny."
Billy: "Why?"
Sally: "He's got a gun on his shirt."

--------------------

Freddy: "Craig just took a pencil from me."
Kenny: "Why did you let him take it?"
Freddy: "He's got a gun on his shirt, and he might have one in his pocket."

---------------------

Teacher (to parent): "Jackie is a good student, but other children don't want to be around him. They say they are afraid of those shirts he wears."
Parent: "Well, we appreciate your concern, but we're teaching Jackie about his Constitutional rights, and the court says he can wear those shirts."
Teacher: "I know, but I'm just telling you why the children keep away from him. You need to decide which is more important to him at this time in his life."

----------------------

Yes, I'm making all that up, but that's the kind of problems it creates. There are other ways to teach children about the Constitution, and there are also other ways for parents to exercise their freedom of speech.

 

[Emily L]

I understand where you're coming from. Personally, I think fashion when it comes to school students is major distraction, that often times can lead to conflict. I'm a proponent of school uniforms, which effectively removes any and all messages and statements by students. I had to wear a uniform for 3 years of my schooling and although I hated it back then, I realize now just how effective it was at eliminating conflict. When you make everyone dress alike it provides a greater opportunity for students to find common ground with each other.

.

Good points, Grim!

 

[Captain Adverse]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, and this might be dramatizing (literally), but this is the kind of thing I'm afraid of in the early grades . . .

Sally: "I'm afraid of Johnny."
Billy: "Why?"
Sally: "He's got a gun on his shirt."

--------------------

Freddy: "Craig just took a pencil from me."
Kenny: "Why did you let him take it?"
Freddy: "He's got a gun on his shirt, and he might have one in his pocket."

---------------------

Teacher (to parent): "Jackie is a good student, but other children don't want to be around him. They say they are afraid of those shirts he wears."
Parent: "Well, we appreciate your concern, but we're teaching Jackie about his Constitutional rights, and the court says he can wear those shirts."
Teacher: "I know, but I'm just telling you why the children keep away from him. You need to decide which is more important to him at this time in his life."

----------------------

Yes, I'm making all that up, but that's the kind of problems it creates. There are other ways to teach children about the Constitution, and there are also other ways for parents to exercise their freedom of speech.

That's part of the problem. Children are being taught to fear "imagery." When I was a child growing up in the 50's and 60's we saw guns all the time. Westerns, Monster movies, War movies, Crime movies, and we learned the differences between "good guys with guns" and "bad guys with guns." Boys (and sometimes girls) played with cap-guns, or plastic water pistols, etc.. Kids were not afraid of them. I remember asking for (and getting) a "Johnny 7" for Christmas one year.



However, over the last 30 years guns have been "demonized." Now kids are made so afraid of them even making a gun out of a cookie gets a child kicked out of school.

Boy, suspended for chewing Pop-Tart into shape of gun, gets lifetime NRA membership

An 8-year-old Maryland boy got a standing ovation and a lifetime membership in the National Rifle Association after being suspended from school for gnawing a Pop-Tart into the shape of a gun.

www.nydailynews.com

The whole effort being a long-term attempt to disarm citizens by undermining the 2A. Children should respect guns, but realistically, not simply by being taught to fear them atavistically.

 

[Rudy]

 

[Emily L]

That's part of the problem. Children are being taught to fear "imagery." When I was a child growing up in the 50's and 60's we saw guns all the time. Westerns, Monster movies, War movies, Crime movies, and we learned the differences between "good guys with guns" and "bad guys with guns." Boys (and sometimes girls) played with cap-guns, or plastic water pistols, etc.. Kids were not afraid of them. I remember asking for (and getting) a "Johnny 7" for Christmas one year.

View attachment 67305437

However, over the last 30 years guns have been "demonized." Now kids are made so afraid of them even making a gun out of a cookie gets a child kicked out of school.

Boy, suspended for chewing Pop-Tart into shape of gun, gets lifetime NRA membership

An 8-year-old Maryland boy got a standing ovation and a lifetime membership in the National Rifle Association after being suspended from school for gnawing a Pop-Tart into the shape of a gun.

www.nydailynews.com

The whole effort being a long-term attempt to disarm citizens by undermining the 2A. Children should respect guns, but realistically not atavistically

Yes--and there didn't seem to be as many shootings back then, too. It's weird. Captain, I'm not trying to age you, but my parents talk about tjhsoe days, and so do my grandparents. They played with toy guns all the time, and they grew up to be outstanding citizens of whom I am very proud.

And that raises an interesting question, Captain--could we ever return to those days, and how could we do it? (Okay, those are two questions. ) Are we simply too far gone to ever go back? (Okay, that's three--so I better stop there.)

 

[CLAX1911]

I don't know about that, Aoc. I mean, I'm a conservative, but I feel they should make a special case for schools and not allow such shirts there. Children are so impressionable and they might misinterpret what the shirt implies. Considering our sad history of schools and guns, it almost looks like it might be asking for trouble, regardless of the harmless intentions.

You'd have a point if the shirts said something like "I kill jocks" or "Guns solve problems" but they don't.
The idea that supporting the Constitution somehow provokes mass murder is absurd.

That's like saying wearing this shirt provokes arson because it shows a picture of a lighter.

Don't get me wrong--I'm in favor of school guards having holstered guns--but having one on a student's shirt is just a little too suggestive.

Not any more than having a picture of a car is suggestive of hit and run.

 

[CLAX1911]

I don't mind free expression. But let's not forget that pre-coronavirus, school shootings were common. Not everyone believes that guns and schools mix.

It's not guns it:s tee shirts.

 

[Captain Adverse]

Yes--and there didn't seem to be as many shootings back then, too. It's weird. Captain, I'm not trying to age you, but my parents talk about tjhsoe days, and so do my grandparents. They played with toy guns all the time, and they grew up to be outstanding citizens of whom I am very proud.

And that raises an interesting question, Captain--could we ever return to those days, and how could we do it? (Okay, those are two questions. ) Are we simply too far gone to ever go back? (Okay, that's three--so I better stop there.)

IMO? By following the same methods as used back in the "old days."

My dad refused to let me have a BB gun until he had taught me it's safe use. Some schools even had rifle clubs and sports teams.

Teaching kids the differences in, and dangers of use they should understand about such weapons.

Especially when they are being used by "Good Guys" (police, soldiers, sportsmen, hunters, etc.) and "Bad Guys" i.e. criminals, fringe hate groups, and "bullied" kids like the Columbine shooters.

Kids aren't stupid, they are little versions of US, just not all grown up. They can be taught good and evil, and we need to decide what that means...because our current society seems to confuse even adults. Just look at all the "peaceful protesting" going on in major cities around the country.

 

[Chillfolks]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, and this might be dramatizing (literally), but this is the kind of thing I'm afraid of in the early grades . . .

Sally: "I'm afraid of Johnny."
Billy: "Why?"
Sally: "He's got a gun on his shirt."

--------------------

Freddy: "Craig just took a pencil from me."
Kenny: "Why did you let him take it?"
Freddy: "He's got a gun on his shirt, and he might have one in his pocket."

---------------------

Teacher (to parent): "Jackie is a good student, but other children don't want to be around him. They say they are afraid of those shirts he wears."
Parent: "Well, we appreciate your concern, but we're teaching Jackie about his Constitutional rights, and the court says he can wear those shirts."
Teacher: "I know, but I'm just telling you why the children keep away from him. You need to decide which is more important to him at this time in his life."

----------------------

Yes, I'm making all that up, but that's the kind of problems it creates. There are other ways to teach children about the Constitution, and there are also other ways for parents to exercise their freedom of speech.

Seems like that's a failure of the school for not teaching acceptance of different views.

School uniforms would prevent these incidents and protect students from intolerant over zealous school administrators

 

[Emily L]

You'd have a point if the shirts said something like "I kill jocks" or "Guns solve problems" but they don't.
The idea that supporting the Constitution somehow provokes mass murder is absurd.

That's like saying wearing this shirt provokes arson because it shows a picture of a lighter.

Not any more than having a picture of a car is suggestive of hit and run.

Clax, I see your point (and I like that shirt ), but I think the difference is that lighters are used for harmless purposes, as are cars. But guns are on the news all the time, and children know guns can kill people. That's the only difference I can see, but I think it's a big one.

 

[Emily L]

IMO? By following the same methods as used back in the "old days."

My dad refused to let me have a BB gun until he had taught me it's safe use. Some schools even had rifle clubs and sports teams.

Teaching kids the differences in, and dangers of use they should understand about such weapons.

Especially when they are being used by "Good Guys" (police, soldiers, sportsmen, hunters, etc.) and "Bad Guys" i.e. criminals, fringe hate groups, and "bullied" kids like the Columbine shooters.

Kids aren't stupid, they are little versions of US, just not all grown up. They can be taught good and evil, and we need to decide what that means...because our current society seems to confuse even adults. Just look at all the "peaceful protesting" going on in major cities around the country.

Captain, that would be so great if we could do that. But I'm afraid that society might have burned too many bridges. You know, I'm usually an optimist, but for some reason I just can't see us going back to those days, unfortunately.

 

[Emily L]

Seems like that's a failure of the school for not teaching acceptance of different views.

School uniforms would prevent these incidents and protect students from intolerant over zealous school administrators

I'm with you 100% of that uniform thing. It would sure solve a lot of problems.

 

[CLAX1911]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, and this might be dramatizing (literally), but this is the kind of thing I'm afraid of in the early grades . . .

Sally: "I'm afraid of Johnny."
Billy: "Why?"
Sally: "He's got a gun on his shirt."

--------------------

This is an excellent point for a teachable moment. Well sally, you have a unicorn on your shirt, does that mean you ride one to school?

We shouldn't judge people by their appearances.



Teacher (to parent): "Jackie is a good student, but other children don't want to be around him. They say they are afraid of those shirts he wears."
Parent: "Well, we appreciate your concern, but we're teaching Jackie about his Constitutional rights, and the court says he can wear those shirts."
Teacher: "I know, but I'm just telling you why the children keep away from him. You need to decide which is more important to him at this time in his life."[/QUOTE]I would say the teacher shouldn't placate these prejudices part of going to school is learning to socialize with people who are different than you.

It's like bringing in Mr. And Mrs. Alfuad and explaining to them that little Jazzia wearing her hijab makes other students dislike her.

Yes, I'm making all that up, but that's the kind of problems it creates. There are other ways to teach children about the Constitution, and there are also other ways for parents to exercise their freedom of speech.

I would say being nervous about the clothing of others is probably something they should learn to deal with and get over. I had to learn to accept the were all sorts of different people in school and I'm a better person for it I think.

 

[CLAX1911]

Clax, I see your point (and I like that shirt ), but I think the difference is that lighters are used for harmless purposes, as are cars. But guns are on the news all the time, and children know guns can kill people. That's the only difference I can see, but I think it's a big one.

Guns are used for harmless purposes.

And this is a failing that I think we should address. Guns can be used to kill people, but they don't have to be. Maybe dispelling this fear is good for our culture.

 

[CLAX1911]

I'm with you 100% of that uniform thing. It would sure solve a lot of problems.

I'm on the fence about uniforms. I see the benefits but I see some drawbacks. I would support a stricter dress code.