• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

FBI has released a video about China's IP theft and plan for global market domination

Craig234

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 22, 2019
Messages
46,485
Reaction score
22,693
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
China's government does and encourages wholesale theft of every IP in the US, and views the US as its #1 global enemy IMO, fighting an economic and information war. I'm a bit surprised to see the FBI release this video.

 
China's government does and encourages wholesale theft of every IP in the US, and views the US as its #1 global enemy IMO, fighting an economic and information war. I'm a bit surprised to see the FBI release this video.

Love to see it, sign of the times, and of the US at long last coming to fully understand and appreciate the threat China truly is; this sort of thing should've been out in the public eye well over a decade ago, but better late than never.
 
Russian military aggression and Chinese market aggression makes them quite a team against liberal democracy. Then there's the useful idiot US Trump/Rep/cons aggression against American democracy. They're everywhere.
 
China's government does and encourages wholesale theft of every IP in the US, and views the US as its #1 global enemy IMO, fighting an economic and information war. I'm a bit surprised to see the FBI release this video.

"the urgent need"
Train has left the station while we were sitting on our rump.
 
Russian military aggression and Chinese market aggression makes them quite a team against liberal democracy. Then there's the useful idiot US Trump/Rep/cons aggression against American democracy. They're everywhere.
Chinese military aggression is also a thing per their saber rattling and territory grabs in the South China Sea, border skirmishes with India, and aspirations of invading Taiwan and seizing the Senkaku Islands from Japan.

For all the breathless attention on Russia, and I certainly understand why in light of recent events, we must never forget that China is by far the greatest threat to the West and democracy and freedom in general.
 
Let's pull some high dollar sources/support from this government even if capitol hill must force the issue by
killing the preferential tax codes handed out like drunken sailors to all of the USA corporations who outsourced millions of USA jobs. Products galore made in China with USA names attached.

Let's demand that USA workers are put back to work manufacturing products that were once made in America.
 
Chinese military aggression is also a thing per their saber rattling and territory grabs in the South China Sea, border skirmishes with India, and aspirations of invading Taiwan and seizing the Senkaku Islands from Japan.

For all the breathless attention on Russia, and I certainly understand why in light of recent events, we must never forget that China is by far the greatest threat to the West and democracy and freedom in general.

I think it's #3. Countries, et al, fail from within and fight to eventually survive from within.

Aspirations and intent may be apparent, but only action counts. There has been no territorial seizure by China in the South China Sea. There are territorial disputes that include Vietnam and the Philippines. China does build islands that such become their territory.

China conflict with India were the Sino-Indian War of 1962, the border clashes in Nathu La and Cho La in 1967, and the 1987 Sumdorong Chu standoff. Nothing since.

Without doubt, the #1 threat right now is Russia's military aggression, in spades. China isn't invading democratic countries. Russia is.
 
I think it's #3. Countries, et al, fail from within and fight to eventually survive from within.

Aspirations and intent may be apparent, but only action counts. There has been no territorial seizure by China in the South China Sea. There are territorial disputes that include Vietnam and the Philippines. China does build islands that such become their territory.
Right, they build islands on territory that doesn't belong to them, try to claim that territory, and then use said claimed territory to lay claim to other waters that don't belong to them. It's not really a dispute; they're clearly in the wrong as per international rulings.

China conflict with India were the Sino-Indian War of 1962, the border clashes in Nathu La and Cho La in 1967, and the 1987 Sumdorong Chu standoff. Nothing since.

Without doubt, the #1 threat right now is Russia's military aggression, in spades. China isn't invading democratic countries. Russia is.
Only if there's nuclear escalation which I find to be highly unlikely.

Russia's efforts are doomed to strategic failure, and at this rate it is increasingly likely they'll be doomed to wholesale failure, while it has effectively bankrupted itself.

Easily the greater overall threat is China; has been and will continue to be.
 
Last edited:
Right, they build islands on territory that doesn't belong to them, try to claim that territory, and then use said claimed territory to lay claim to other waters that don't belong to them. It's not really a dispute; they're clearly in the wrong as per international rulings.




Only if there's nuclear escalation which I find to be highly unlikely.

Russia's efforts are doomed to strategic failure, and at this rate it is increasingly likely they'll be doomed to wholesale failure, while it has effectively bankrupted itself.

Easily the greater overall threat is China; has been and will continue to be.

All international rulings have called what China is doing as illegal. But there is no enforcement for any such ruling. My point is, what is in dispute can only be determined by enforcement. China is enforcing its claim on the territory of the islands they are building within the 200-mile internationally recognized territorial zone of a given country. They are not, yet, claiming sole rights to a 200-mile area of sea (or halfway to the next country) around those islands. Clearly wrong, according to int'l law of the UN, didn’t stop the US from invading Iraq.

Thanks for the link to India-China skirmishes. My thinking was about boots crossing territorial boundaries.

So, Russia’s military aggression doesn’t count until it reaches the nuclear level? Therefore, China is currently the greater aggressor?

I agree China is the greater long-term threat in the world and to the US because of their obvious, IMO, intent to control the globe and that they are right up there with the US as the greatest economic power on the planet to do it. We think today, they think tomorrow.
 
China's government does and encourages wholesale theft of every IP in the US, and views the US as its #1 global enemy IMO, fighting an economic and information war. I'm a bit surprised to see the FBI release this video.

None of this from China is any surprise in the least, at least not to those who've been paying attention, meanwhile the left kept hawking 'Russia! Russia! Russia!' for the last 4 years, ignoring the CHinese threat. :rolleyes: DO they ever get anything right?
 
You think IP theft is a problem? I think OS is a solution.
 
"The Chinese threat! The Chinese threat!" :rolleyes:
 
All international rulings have called what China is doing as illegal. But there is no enforcement for any such ruling. My point is, what is in dispute can only be determined by enforcement. China is enforcing its claim on the territory of the islands they are building within the 200-mile internationally recognized territorial zone of a given country. They are not, yet, claiming sole rights to a 200-mile area of sea (or halfway to the next country) around those islands. Clearly wrong, according to int'l law of the UN, didn’t stop the US from invading Iraq.
China is effectively claiming international waters as their own under the auspices of military force and protection, which is a de facto territory grab, nevermind the island formation which is that by any definition.

Unlawful and unethical US actions in Iraq which it received plenty of well-deserved criticism for clearly don't justify or make right China's illegal territorial expansionism and its aggression in enforcement of that expansionism.

There is also the matter of Japan's Senkaku Islands that are subject to constant Chinese incursion.

Thanks for the link to India-China skirmishes. My thinking was about boots crossing territorial boundaries.
Yes, this has happened during these skirmishes.

So, Russia’s military aggression doesn’t count until it reaches the nuclear level? Therefore, China is currently the greater aggressor?
The point is that Russia's recent military aggression doesn't rise to the level of making it a greater threat to the West than China save for nuclear escalation.

I agree China is the greater long-term threat in the world and to the US because of their obvious, IMO, intent to control the globe and that they are right up there with the US as the greatest economic power on the planet to do it. We think today, they think tomorrow.

On this we're certainly in agreement, though I would dispute the implication that they have greater foresight in light of their massive ongoing debt issues, the ongoing decline and failure of the Belt and Road Initiative as well their severe ongoing demographic issues and wholesale environmental devastation. At best, the CCP may be forward looking, but it doesn't seem to be particularly good at it.

Nonetheless, despite these self-imposed handicaps due to myopic and unsophisticated leadership, they remain easily the greatest threat to the free world in balance between their explicit intentions, complete disregard for human life, rights and dignity (presiding over two ongoing genocides), rapid military and territorial expansionism, and tireless use and leveraging of economic largesse, subterfuge and IP theft in the trillions to gain unfair advantages, stifle criticism, control narratives, bribe, pressure and subvert governments and international bodies and otherwise steer the world in their preferred (and undesirable) direction.
 
China is effectively claiming international waters as their own under the auspices of military force and protection, which is a de facto territory grab, nevermind the island formation which is that by any definition.

Unlawful and unethical US actions in Iraq which it received plenty of well-deserved criticism for clearly don't justify or make right China's illegal territorial expansionism and its aggression in enforcement of that expansionism.

There is also the matter of Japan's Senkaku Islands that are subject to constant Chinese incursion.


Yes, this has happened during these skirmishes.


The point is that Russia's recent military aggression doesn't rise to the level of making it a greater threat to the West than China save for nuclear escalation.



On this we're certainly in agreement, though I would dispute the implication that they have greater foresight in light of their massive ongoing debt issues, the ongoing decline and failure of the Belt and Road Initiative as well their severe ongoing demographic issues and wholesale environmental devastation. At best, the CCP may be forward looking, but it doesn't seem to be particularly good at it.

Nonetheless, despite these self-imposed handicaps due to myopic and unsophisticated leadership, they remain easily the greatest threat to the free world in balance between their explicit intentions, complete disregard for human life, rights and dignity (presiding over two ongoing genocides), rapid military and territorial expansionism, and tireless use and leveraging of economic largesse, subterfuge and IP theft in the trillions to gain unfair advantages, stifle criticism, control narratives, bribe, pressure and subvert governments and international bodies and otherwise steer the world in their preferred (and undesirable) direction.

What the US did in Iraq does not give us the moral high ground to pass judgement on China as you do.

Russia is currently the greatest threat to the west, having thrown us into economic strain like China has never done. That's a distinction you refuse to accept. As I pointed out, we think about today, they think about tomorrow. Meaning, China is and has been the greatest long-term threat. You may not think they're particularly good at it, but we don't do it at all and rely on what we were to stay on top, a losing philosophy.

We've known what you mention that China has been doing, incl IP theft, for yrs. But we've had no compelling response. China's GDP has been growing faster for yrs. In 2015, the US GDP was about 64% larger than China's. In 2021, 40% larger. Our go-to reliance on the strength of the dollar, our ability to rely on debt, allayed fears of China catching up with the US. Now, though, the world is starting to shift money to other currencies than the US $. Combined with no longer being quite the leader of the free world the US once was, our world position has weakened against China, which country we dare not make demands against for fear of losing cheap imports. Tariffs backfired.

That there is strength through unity is true. That's not been the case in unifying the world, primarily the US and Europe, in managing the predicament of China nor Russia until the wolf is through the door and at grandma's throat. Even while watching the wolves come down from the mountain and onto the ranch. NK with nukes is a threat. Pakistan with nukes, which could be taken over any moment by anti-west radicals, is a threat. But Russia and China are certainly the current and long-term greatest threats to democracy and the world. It practically doesn't matter who is the #1 or #2 threat when we're not doing much about either, that I can tell, in any timely manner.
 
China's government does and encourages wholesale theft of every IP in the US, and views the US as its #1 global enemy IMO, fighting an economic and information war. I'm a bit surprised to see the FBI release this video.

This is like if police announced that they have traffic citation quotas.
 
What the US did in Iraq does not give us the moral high ground to pass judgement on China as you do.
Of course it does, because I passed judgement on the US too, and the US' indiscretions and ethical missteps clearly do not justify China's, nor shelter it from criticism.

Russia is currently the greatest threat to the west, having thrown us into economic strain like China has never done. That's a distinction you refuse to accept...
Whatever problem Russia poses is ultimately transitory, and whatever cost of living increase imposed on us by Russian actions specifically (versus other factors like supply disruption, and overtly consolidated industries with far too much pricing power that is being abused) isn't remotely threatening. Russia is a threat to UKR (much less than the world imagined given the country's utterly laughable and embarrassing performance), but to the States, not so much.

As to 'thinking about tomorrow', China is frankly its own worst enemy given the demographic crisis (among others) is entirely a product of its own making, where that esteemed 'forward thinking' becomes more liability than asset (and it's 'present thinking' leaves much to be desired given it has effectively chased so much manufacturing out of the country), nevermind that it is a wholly inaccurate caricature to assert that the US has no long term planning, insight or contingencies.

If anything, Russia has strategically done the US a great service in bringing the West together, underscoring the importance of NATO and similar defensive military alliances, frightening China away from its depraved ambitions to retake Taiwan, and repairing much of the damage Trump has done to the country's international relationships; all things that have not been lost on the CCP. The party clearly fears tempting the wrath of the West in light of its hollow overtures of de-escalation on Ukraine despite supporting Russia in its heart of hearts as domestic propaganda and information control makes readily apparent: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-n...veillance-diplomats-offering-support-ukraine/ https://www.brookings.edu/techstream/china-and-russia-are-joining-forces-to-spread-disinformation/


We've known what you mention that China has been doing, incl IP theft, for yrs. But we've had no compelling response...

To the contrary, we've taken material steps to reinforce protection of key IP, and tighten and bolster counterintelligence (e.g. the China Initiative). We have successfully revived QUAD for the purposes of Chinese military containment and moved to create trade groups and pacts exclusionary of China. On the subject of the dollar, the USD accounts for 60% (barely budging for more than a decade) of world foreign currency reserves with the Euro as a distant runner up at 20%. Meanwhile, the Yuan's share of world reserves by contrast is a pitiful 2.5%. There is no real danger of the USD losing its crown for the foreseeable future, and in the unlikely event it were to lose that status, it would almost certainly be inherited by the EU, not China (the country's belligerence and political risks being no small part of that).

In the interim, COVID, tariffs, geopolitical tension, Xi's crackdown on virtually every sector of industry and commerce has resulted in an exodus of manufacturing and investment which it is struggling to staunch; and all to the backdrop of an ongoing debt and growth crisis: https://www.arabianbusiness.com/abn...rities-are-scrambling-to-slow-down-the-exodus || https://www.fxempire.com/news/artic...activity-contracts-on-covid-resurgence-953446 || https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2...ment-curbs-amid-unprecedented-investor-exodus || https://www.wsj.com/articles/slow-m...-market-collapse-downturn-xi-cewc-11640032283 || https://www.reuters.com/breakingvie...ext-debt-crisis-will-be-municipal-2022-01-10/


That there is strength through unity is true...

Unity among the West has seen an indisputable and passionate revival while anti-Chinese and Russian sentiment is at historic highs; fertile ground for greater coordination in neutralizing these threats as above. Moreover, Russia is unlikely to be anything approaching a threat in the foreseeable future given it has largely broken itself on the rock of UKR and western sanctions.
 
China is effectively claiming international waters as their own under the auspices of military force and protection, which is a de facto territory grab, nevermind the island formation which is that by any definition.

Unlawful and unethical US actions in Iraq which it received plenty of well-deserved criticism for clearly don't justify or make right China's illegal territorial expansionism and its aggression in enforcement of that expansionism.

There is also the matter of Japan's Senkaku Islands that are subject to constant Chinese incursion.


Yes, this has happened during these skirmishes.


The point is that Russia's recent military aggression doesn't rise to the level of making it a greater threat to the West than China save for nuclear escalation.



On this we're certainly in agreement, though I would dispute the implication that they have greater foresight in light of their massive ongoing debt issues, the ongoing decline and failure of the Belt and Road Initiative as well their severe ongoing demographic issues and wholesale environmental devastation. At best, the CCP may be forward looking, but it doesn't seem to be particularly good at it.

Nonetheless, despite these self-imposed handicaps due to myopic and unsophisticated leadership, they remain easily the greatest threat to the free world in balance between their explicit intentions, complete disregard for human life, rights and dignity (presiding over two ongoing genocides), rapid military and territorial expansionism, and tireless use and leveraging of economic largesse, subterfuge and IP theft in the trillions to gain unfair advantages, stifle criticism, control narratives, bribe, pressure and subvert governments and international bodies and otherwise steer the world in their preferred (and undesirable) direction.

The US pot calling the China kettle black. The US “well deserved criticism” is not justice for pre-emptive invasion of a sovereign nation that had not committed any act of aggression against the US. C’mon.

It is most certain that the skirmishes btx India and China had boots on the ground initiated by China.

The point of Russia being the greater threat was in the current context, which I made clear, to which you added the qualifier of the nuclear option. As if that’s no big deal. It doesn’t count. Not fair to consider that. You can't pretend the ace of nukes doesn't exist in the equation of the current threat. In the current context, which of the countries is the greater threat?

I’d say that China is particularly good at “think tomorrow” vs “think today” based on over the yrs they’ve become #2 in GDP and #1 in GDP PPP. That reflects long term strategic planning. That they’ve become the #1 world threat, as you admit, and my means other than just militarily, would indicate being particularly good at forward looking. What is your evidence otherwise?

China is anything buy myopic. You’ve absolutely zero evidence to support what you say. Even you implied China was forward looking. Now you say they are short-sighted.

Much of what China does is unsophisticated and ham-handed. But in how they conduct themselves via relationships and patience in taking action has them considering the west is rather unsophisticated. The rest of what you say is true, about half of which the US is complicit in and/or allows, such as IP theft and leveraging of economic largesse. The US no doubt uses its power and throws its weight around.
 
The US pot calling the China kettle black. The US “well deserved criticism” is not justice for pre-emptive invasion of a sovereign nation that had not committed any act of aggression against the US. C’mon.
There was no justice for Iraq, but again, this does not excuse the Chinese. I am perfectly capable of condemning both the US and the CCP.

The point of Russia being the greater threat was in the current context, which I made clear, to which you added the qualifier of the nuclear option. As if that’s no big deal. It doesn’t count. Not fair to consider that. You can't pretend the ace of nukes doesn't exist in the equation of the current threat. In the current context, which of the countries is the greater threat?
As with China, despite the constant bluffing and posturing Russia, will not use nukes unless the West does something egregiously stupid and aggressive (which it will not), so I don't really consider this a real point of consideration.


I’d say that China is particularly good at “think tomorrow” vs “think today” based on over the yrs they’ve become #2 in GDP and #1 in GDP PPP. That reflects long term strategic planning. That they’ve become the #1 world threat, as you admit, and my means other than just militarily, would indicate being particularly good at forward looking. What is your evidence otherwise?
The fact that their worst problems are directly tracable to their policies and leadership would be the best contrarian argument to the notion they're actually good at forward thinking.

Their success in terms of economic expansion is due overwhelmingly to the following:

1. An abundance of population.
2. An abundance of resources.
3. Nixon committing one of the greatest and most idiotic historical blunders of all time in normalizing trade with China in exchange for virtually nothing, which allowed for the trade and foreign investment that allowed China to fully utilize 1 and 2. This was in large part thanks to in-vogue neoliberal thinking at the time naively believing that economic liberalization would beget political liberalization (or merely using that as a rationalization to fulfill their free trade ideology/get rich through exploitation of cheap and abundant Chinese labour).

Much as I wouldn't credit any presidents with the majority of booms and busts in American history, I wouldn't credit Chinese leadership save for the most basic and broad strokes of getting out of the way of development (until recently, hence the mass and pending migration of industry on the basis of political risk).

China is anything buy myopic. You’ve absolutely zero evidence to support what you say. Even you implied China was forward looking. Now you say they are short-sighted.
I'm saying they're forward looking, but are pretty bad at it; a myopic person can look off into the distance but see only blurs; so too is it with China. The most compelling evidence of this is that the vast majority of their worst ongoing problems are self-owns/own goals.

Much of what China does is unsophisticated and ham-handed. But in how they conduct themselves via relationships and patience in taking action has them considering the west is rather unsophisticated. The rest of what you say is true, about half of which the US is complicit in and/or allows, such as IP theft and leveraging of economic largesse. The US no doubt uses its power and throws its weight around.
The US doesn't allow IP theft so much as individual corporations chose not to make the necessary investments in security. Fortunately with the recognition of the threat China poses, there have been substantial improvements on this front. If you're talking about IP theft from others, this is true to an extent, but we're talking orders of magnitude of difference between the US and China in this regard, and typically there is legal recourse for those who have their IPs infringed upon by American actors.

I don't disagree that the US shares culpability in many of these things, but at the end of the day, the practical reality is that there is always going to be a top dog who will leveraging its power in injust ways; the overwhelming majority of human history has been a cycle of empires doing exactly that. I think it is pretty clear that of the options, China presents by far the worst given its complete and demonstrable indifference towards its own people and the value of human life, and its explicit and ongoing willingness to tyrannize people in every dimension and facet of their lives, having created a suffocating police state the likes of which is beyond even Orwell's worst imaginings.
 
There was no justice for Iraq, but again, this does not excuse the Chinese. I am perfectly capable of condemning both the US and the CCP.


As with China, despite the constant bluffing and posturing Russia, will not use nukes unless the West does something egregiously stupid and aggressive (which it will not), so I don't really consider this a real point of consideration.



The fact that their worst problems are directly tracable to their policies and leadership would be the best contrarian argument to the notion they're actually good at forward thinking.

Their success in terms of economic expansion is due overwhelmingly to the following:

1. An abundance of population.
2. An abundance of resources.
3. Nixon committing one of the greatest and most idiotic historical blunders of all time in normalizing trade with China in exchange for virtually nothing, which allowed for the trade and foreign investment that allowed China to fully utilize 1 and 2. This was in large part thanks to in-vogue neoliberal thinking at the time naively believing that economic liberalization would beget political liberalization (or merely using that as a rationalization to fulfill their free trade ideology/get rich through exploitation of cheap and abundant Chinese labour).

Much as I wouldn't credit any presidents with the majority of booms and busts in American history, I wouldn't credit Chinese leadership save for the most basic and broad strokes of getting out of the way of development (until recently, hence the mass and pending migration of industry on the basis of political risk).


I'm saying they're forward looking, but are pretty bad at it; a myopic person can look off into the distance but see only blurs; so too is it with China. The most compelling evidence of this is that the vast majority of their worst ongoing problems are self-owns/own goals.


The US doesn't allow IP theft so much as individual corporations chose not to make the necessary investments in security. Fortunately with the recognition of the threat China poses, there have been substantial improvements on this front. If you're talking about IP theft from others, this is true to an extent, but we're talking orders of magnitude of difference between the US and China in this regard, and typically there is legal recourse for those who have their IPs infringed upon by American actors.

I don't disagree that the US shares culpability in many of these things, but at the end of the day, the practical reality is that there is always going to be a top dog who will leveraging its power in injust ways; the overwhelming majority of human history has been a cycle of empires doing exactly that. I think it is pretty clear that of the options, China presents by far the worst given its complete and demonstrable indifference towards its own people and the value of human life, and its explicit and ongoing willingness to tyrannize people in every dimension and facet of their lives, having created a suffocating police state the likes of which is beyond even Orwell's worst imaginings.

Russia is over with, and China is now the most obvious, and ongoing, threat. Russia is simply, for now, the most expensive. I still am concerned with Pakistan being overtaken by extremists who'd like nothing better than to mess up America. That could always pop-up. NK already has an extremist at its helm.

When I look outward and see or imagine how bad things are, I only look inward to recognize where the worst threat is coming from.

BTW, just anecdotal, I was watching some yrs ago a program on how China and US companies work together. An engineer was talking into the camera about how he was explaining to a Chinese visitor how something IP protected worked. The engineer had no doubt the visitor was very savvy and was taking mental notes. The engineer laughed. To me, that was no laughing matter.
 
China's government does and encourages wholesale theft of every IP in the US, and views the US as its #1 global enemy IMO, fighting an economic and information war. I'm a bit surprised to see the FBI release this video.

When you consider how inept and weak this Presidency is, it's not a surprise. This is probably a cry for help.
 
Back
Top Bottom