Faster *****cat is....faster

[Slartibartfast]

I could make a remark about how wrong it is to see a persons worth based upon their looks.....but I won't because I know that's not exactly what you are saying.

We can argue that its right or wrong all day, but human instinct will create bias towards the more attractive, whether we consciously realize it or not.

 

[1Perry]

What you want is irrelevant in the face of facts. Personally, I do thank my good fortune for what I have. If minor things (that we often have no control over) in my life had been different, my choices would have produced different results as the inputs would have been different.

Or you could be Bill Gates. It is what it is.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Or you could be Bill Gates. It is what it is.

This is true. But you bring up a good point, with the same effort, I could be very rich, very poor, or somewhere in between.

So, given this, we can see that effort is not the only thing that determines outcomes.

 

[1Perry]

We can argue that its right or wrong all day, but human instinct will create bias towards the more attractive, whether we consciously realize it or not.

But yet someone like Kathy Bates still did very well. (I only pick on her because she does herself in the promos for her new show)

 

[1Perry]

This is true. But you bring up a good point, with the same effort, I could be very rich, very poor, or somewhere in between.

So, given this, we can see that effort is not the only thing that determines outcomes.

You can bet that Gates put in a ton of effort.

 

[What if...?]

I could make a remark about how wrong it is to see a persons worth based upon their looks.....but I won't because I know that's not exactly what you are saying.

Looks are actually the worst of the advantageous traits.

Human beings favor attractive people.

Doesn't confer any actual competitive advantage beyond this bias.

My wife was an ugly duckling so isn't completely spoiled rotten. She's always relied on her other talents.

 

[Pinkie]

I don't much care for my job, but I worked around 2 years to get it because it pays well. It wasn't "good fortune" it was a good bit of effort.

Perry, I was once young, pretty and smart as hell.....and it opened doors. I'm still attractive, for a lady my age, but the difference is like night and day. Most people don't even see me, certainly not a potential employer or client.

I do see an advantage in this, oddly enough. I figure 10 more years, I can be naked in public without any problem.

 

[Slartibartfast]

But yet someone like Kathy Bates still did very well. (I only pick on her because she does herself in the promos for her new show)

This is because beauty is but one factor in which someone can gain an advantage. So, it in no way invalidates my point.

You can bet that Gates put in a ton of effort.

And he enjoyed several advantages that 95%+ do not (such as his upbringing). Going back to my (and your) previous point, changing factors in life do influence outcomes (and often pretty significantly, try being just as successful if a drunk person runs into you and you get brain damage as another example)

 

[Pinkie]

It's human nature to say "my successes are all due to my own hard work" and "my falures are all due to circumstances beyond my control". To a degree, we all do it.

Successful people do it more, as they need more defense. (Emotional defense.) I "deserve" a $50,000 ruby kitchen counter because I "worked" for it....empty food pantries in the community are the result of "laziness" and the like.

 

[Goshin]

Everyone has their limits. There are things you can do, and things that are just flat out beyond you. Some things you will never accomplish no matter how hard you work or try. Each individual's limits are different, and there are variations by category, like talent in math vs talent at dealing with people.

Some people are a lot more limited than others.

Certainly we all should try to maximize our potential as much as we can, especially in areas where we have greater than average talent.... but we also need to recognize that there are people who can and do work very hard but are never going to be rocket scientists.... AND we need to recognize that these limits are not their fault, any more than it is my fault that I can't fly by flapping my arms.

Granted, a lot of limitations are self-imposed. Some people are limited because they're lazy; I have no sympathy for that. But some people will work their asses off all their life and not get as far as others, simply because they lack the fundamental capacity of the "faster *****cat".

It isn't society's job to equalize all outcomes, and to do so would impede enterpreneurship and achievement and damage the economy. However, a certain compassion for those who are more limited, an effort to be humane to those who can't take 1st Prize in the grand competition for resources, would help smooth some of the rough edges of capitalism.

 

[Pinkie]

Mebbe. I'm not so sure. At this point, so many people are almost totally without hope of ever finding work -- talented, experienced, productive, willing people, that I think mebbe government should step in.

 

[Cephus]

Mebbe. I'm not so sure. At this point, so many people are almost totally without hope of ever finding work -- talented, experienced, productive, willing people, that I think mebbe government should step in.

You cannot take an economic downturn and treat it like it's the normal state of things. It will improve again. Many of the people who are failing today failed just as badly before the economy crashed, not because their four-leaf clover got stepped on, but because they weren't interested in getting off their backside and putting in the time and effort required to be successful. When you drop out of school, when you're on drugs and in gangs, when you have illegitimate children, all of these things have the effect of damaging or even ruining one's prospects in life.

And you know something, that wasn't luck either. They did it to themselves.

 

[Pinkie]

You cannot take an economic downturn and treat it like it's the normal state of things. It will improve again. Many of the people who are failing today failed just as badly before the economy crashed, not because their four-leaf clover got stepped on, but because they weren't interested in getting off their backside and putting in the time and effort required to be successful. When you drop out of school, when you're on drugs and in gangs, when you have illegitimate children, all of these things have the effect of damaging or even ruining one's prospects in life.

And you know something, that wasn't luck either. They did it to themselves.

This thought may comfort you, but it isn't true. I have many 50+ aged friends who did nothing to get fired and have tried everything to get rehired...in any capacity, by anyone. Without luck. For some people, the door is closed.

 

[atrasicarius]

You cannot take an economic downturn and treat it like it's the normal state of things. It will improve again. Many of the people who are failing today failed just as badly before the economy crashed, not because their four-leaf clover got stepped on, but because they weren't interested in getting off their backside and putting in the time and effort required to be successful. When you drop out of school, when you're on drugs and in gangs, when you have illegitimate children, all of these things have the effect of damaging or even ruining one's prospects in life.

And you know something, that wasn't luck either. They did it to themselves.

You really aren't understanding these people's positions. To them, gang members are successful. They have money, power, women. They're like rock stars. A lot of those kids are motivated. It's just that they're being motivated in the wrong direction.

 

[Cephus]

This thought may comfort you, but it isn't true. I have many 50+ aged friends who did nothing to get fired and have tried everything to get rehired...in any capacity, by anyone. Without luck. For some people, the door is closed.

And once the economy recovers, that will change. That doesn't change the fact that there are lots of people who were on welfare before the economic downturn, are on it now, and will still be on it when the economy recovers.

 

[Cephus]

You really aren't understanding these people's positions. To them, gang members are successful. They have money, power, women. They're like rock stars. A lot of those kids are motivated. It's just that they're being motivated in the wrong direction.

Then they and their culture are idiots. 'nuff said.

 

[Pinkie]

And once the economy recovers, that will change. That doesn't change the fact that there are lots of people who were on welfare before the economic downturn, are on it now, and will still be on it when the economy recovers.

Cephus, nobody in their 50's is on welfare. (Well, almost nobody.) To qualify, you need to be caring for a minor child. Most of us are caring for struggling ADULT children with the teeny-weeny resources we have.

Pretending the poor just LOVE being poor may comfort you, but it just ain't the case.

 

[Pinkie]

Then they and their culture are idiots. 'nuff said.

The unemployment rate for black teens in America is 75%.

I think you lack imagination, or empathy, or both.

 

[Cephus]

Cephus, nobody in their 50's is on welfare. (Well, almost nobody.) To qualify, you need to be caring for a minor child. Most of us are caring for struggling ADULT children with the teeny-weeny resources we have.

Pretending the poor just LOVE being poor may comfort you, but it just ain't the case.

What is it about liberals who keep trying to distract what's being talked about by pointing over there and declaring an exception? Nobody was talking about people in their 50s. I never said for a second that people in their 50s were on welfare and you know that isn't what I was talking about. Nothing you said in any way, shape or form changes the truth of what I was talking about.

So sure, there are people in their 50s with problems. How does that change the people on welfare who have been on welfare and other public assistance for their entire lives and will never get off of it?

 

[Cephus]

The unemployment rate for black teens in America is 75%.

I think you lack imagination, or empathy, or both.

That shows that the black culture has failed. Any culture that encourages people to behave in a manner that harms their self-sufficiency is a failure. Let's call it what it is. You don't need to be empathetic, just realistic.

 

[Pinkie]

What is it about liberals who keep trying to distract what's being talked about by pointing over there and declaring an exception? Nobody was talking about people in their 50s. I never said for a second that people in their 50s were on welfare and you know that isn't what I was talking about. Nothing you said in any way, shape or form changes the truth of what I was talking about.

So sure, there are people in their 50s with problems. How does that change the people on welfare who have been on welfare and other public assistance for their entire lives and will never get off of it?

Did you sleep through the 1990's? Lifetime welfare was repealed.

 

[Pinkie]

That shows that the black culture has failed. Any culture that encourages people to behave in a manner that harms their self-sufficiency is a failure. Let's call it what it is. You don't need to be empathetic, just realistic.

Mebbe it is white culture that has failed?

 

[What if...?]

What is it about liberals who keep trying to distract what's being talked about by pointing over there and declaring an exception? Nobody was talking about people in their 50s. I never said for a second that people in their 50s were on welfare and you know that isn't what I was talking about. Nothing you said in any way, shape or form changes the truth of what I was talking about.

So sure, there are people in their 50s with problems. How does that change the people on welfare who have been on welfare and other public assistance for their entire lives and will never get off of it?

So what exactly would be the mechanism by which someone who isn't disabled, especially a single male, remains on public assistance their entire lives?

Welfare isn't given to single males at all, and while there are exceptions, there is a five year limit.

I think you are mistaken in your fundamental assumption.

And completely missing the point of the thread.

 

[Pinkie]

He is at least demonstrating the point of the thread.

Exceptional people, or those with exceptional results, want to take credit for their accomplishments. And blame others who fail to succeed for such things as laziness....as if anyone could replicate his results if only they would "try harder".

 

[1Perry]

It's human nature to say "my successes are all due to my own hard work" and "my falures are all due to circumstances beyond my control". To a degree, we all do it.

The arguement is that in the vast majority of cases without the hard work it doesn't happen.