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Fascism: Would it work.

John2.0

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Default Fascism: Is it a good system

Hi everyone. I am a history and economics major at my college and throughout the course of my studies I learned a lot about different economic and political systems, and one that I was always found really interesting was fascism. I know that typically people like to talk bad about fascism because of Hitler and Mussolini, but I got to thinking that besides those two bad apples, this system might have something to it.

Fascism basically offers an alternative to both laisse-faire capitalism and socialism. It offers a system based off the concept of "corporatism". Basically, it implies that the state will take a guiding hand in the economy through making corporate-state partnerships, something that is not all that uncommon today.

Fascism also offers a society built on the cultural norms of the nation, as well as a strong devotion to nationalism and the military.

So, I want to know what you think. Is fascism a workable system?

Note: Just for the record I am not a Nazi, nor am I defending the atrocities of the third Reich and other fascists.
Last edited by RobMan121 : Today at 05:36 PM.
 

Hatuey

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I don't think your question should be whether or not 'Fascism' would work but who it would work for. Under Pinochet, Chile tried its had at fascism and they only seemed to benefit the people at the top. A large percentage of Chileans remained slum dwellers who banded in cooperatives. Whether or not an economic system works is dependent on how many people can actually benefit from it. Considering the fact that on average the only ones who seem to benefit from Fascism the most are those in charge [i.e. the government] then no, I do not think 'Fascism' works.
 

Gipper

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Historically I've seen fascism be amongst the most successful forms of governing and tackling an economy. Most of the reason it didn't do wonders for Chile at that time was because it was still reeling from the catastrophic damage Allende did under his Marxist reign of terror. When you suffer hyperinflation to the point where your money literally isn't worth the paper it's written on overnight, a fix is not in your near future.

Germany under the Third Reich was very prosperous, as was Italy (although not nearly as much). I'd even argue that Spain under Franco didn't do too bad either.
 

John2.0

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That's not true at all Hautey. Chile under Pinochet didn't have fascism, they had laisse-faire capitalism with a dictator. Fascism is system that benefits the workers and the state. If you look at Germany under Hitler for example, you'll see that for the most part it did very well economically, the only bad part was the wars. In fact, much of the new deal was modeled after fascist Italy, as was Winston Churchill in England
 
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repeter

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Any governmental system can work, given perfect conditions. But only a few can work well without those perfect conditions. Fascism, along with Communism, works only in perfect worlds, but people aren't perfect.
 

John2.0

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Fascism would work, just not for the Jews.
Fascism works for the Jews, just look at Israel.
 

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Fascism, along with Communism, works only in perfect worlds, but people aren't perfect.
I'd argue that fascism doesn't need a 'perfect world' to work because it doesn't have an inbuilt long-term emancipatory goal. Marxism preaches the eventual withering away of the state and the development of a classless society. A priori fascism doesn't really have anything similar. However, fascists have found ways in the past to incorporate a utopian ideal into their ideologies, such as Mussolini's 'New Rome' and Hitler's Final Solution.

So does fascism 'work'? I'd argue yes, because it can construct a stable and legitimate (if somewhat authoritarian) state in 'ordinary' political contexts, without becoming totalitarian and without inbuilt reference to utopian ideals.
 
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samsmart

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Default Fascism: Is it a good system

Hi everyone. I am a history and economics major at my college and throughout the course of my studies I learned a lot about different economic and political systems, and one that I was always found really interesting was fascism. I know that typically people like to talk bad about fascism because of Hitler and Mussolini, but I got to thinking that besides those two bad apples, this system might have something to it.

Fascism basically offers an alternative to both laisse-faire capitalism and socialism. It offers a system based off the concept of "corporatism". Basically, it implies that the state will take a guiding hand in the economy through making corporate-state partnerships, something that is not all that uncommon today.

Fascism also offers a society built on the cultural norms of the nation, as well as a strong devotion to nationalism and the military.

So, I want to know what you think. Is fascism a workable system?

Note: Just for the record I am not a Nazi, nor am I defending the atrocities of the third Reich and other fascists.
Last edited by RobMan121 : Today at 05:36 PM.
Fascism will never work because it is an inherently tyrannical system. It automatically gives preference to one group of people over the opposition. When the opposition is repressed with government support, the people will not bear that government for long. Either the government will imprison or kill the opposition, resulting in a drain of resources, or the opposition will flee to some other country which will benefit from those resources. So, ultimately, no, it can't work.
 

Hatuey

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Most of the reason it didn't do wonders for Chile at that time was because it was still reeling from the catastrophic damage Allende did under his Marxist reign of terror. When you suffer hyperinflation to the point where your money literally isn't worth the paper it's written on overnight, a fix is not in your near future.
This is simply incorrect. If anything Pinochet dove further into socialist policies than Allende by nationalizing a myriad of industries. Ironically he forced policies which made the overall income of Chileans dropped all the while increasing military spending for one of the few countries in Latin America who did not have a history of armed conflict like say Colombia or Venezuela. The damage to the Chilean economy came as a result of a global drop in copper prices, Chile's main export. They rebounded during the late 70s.

Economy of Chile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

John2.0

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automatically gives preference to one group of people over the opposition. When the opposition is repressed with government support, the people will not bear that government for long. Either the government will imprison or kill the opposition, resulting in a drain of resources, or the opposition will flee to some other country which will benefit from those resources. So, ultimately, no, it can't work.
This might be true, but doesn't necessarily mean that fascism doesn't work. In fact, imprisoning the opposition might be just what the nation needs to get it going again. In many cases, democracy has failed because have fighting in the streets between political parties and riots by anarchists. All these problem eventually being fixed however, by the implementation of a strong fascist state.
 

Hoplite

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In the strict legalistic sense, yes you could technically get Fascism to work. As others have pointed out, countries like Italy and Germany did fairly well under Fascism.

The problem is do you WANT it to work?

Facism is a very short hop away from a completely totalitarian system whereby people are no longer actual people, but cogs in the machine of the state. I level the same criticism at Fascism that I do at Communism in that respect. However I feel that Fascism is a much worse idea on the basis that it requires the de-humanization of it's charges.

The people under the system cannot freely express themselves without the state clamping down on it. The only expression allowed is one that portrays the state in a positive light. This is contrary to the needs of humanity.

Aside from this, Facism quite frequently seems to stoke the flames of xenophobia and racism. Building a society where anything or anyone different from the majority is a dangerous road to travel and one which does a grave disservice to humanity as a whole.

I dont see how modern Fascism could feasibly be put into practice without it being overthrown.
 

apdst

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Fascism would work, just not for the Jews.
Facism worked for Jews just like anyone else. It was Nazism that didn't work well for Jews. In Facist Italy and Spain, Jews did just fine.
 

upsideguy

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Default Fascism: Is it a good system

Hi everyone. I am a history and economics major at my college and throughout the course of my studies I learned a lot about different economic and political systems, and one that I was always found really interesting was fascism. I know that typically people like to talk bad about fascism because of Hitler and Mussolini, but I got to thinking that besides those two bad apples, this system might have something to it.

Fascism basically offers an alternative to both laisse-faire capitalism and socialism. It offers a system based off the concept of "corporatism". Basically, it implies that the state will take a guiding hand in the economy through making corporate-state partnerships, something that is not all that uncommon today.

Fascism also offers a society built on the cultural norms of the nation, as well as a strong devotion to nationalism and the military.

So, I want to know what you think. Is fascism a workable system?

Note: Just for the record I am not a Nazi, nor am I defending the atrocities of the third Reich and other fascists.
Last edited by RobMan121 : Today at 05:36 PM.
We pretty much have that in the US. The only variant to the traditional unholy corporate/government alliance is that the government is controlled by the corporation instead of the more traditional view. The result is the same: the nation and its people exist to serve the interests of the few.
 

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Default Fascism: Is it a good system

Hi everyone. I am a history and economics major at my college and throughout the course of my studies I learned a lot about different economic and political systems, and one that I was always found really interesting was fascism. I know that typically people like to talk bad about fascism because of Hitler and Mussolini, but I got to thinking that besides those two bad apples, this system might have something to it.

Fascism basically offers an alternative to both laisse-faire capitalism and socialism. It offers a system based off the concept of "corporatism". Basically, it implies that the state will take a guiding hand in the economy through making corporate-state partnerships, something that is not all that uncommon today.
Fair enough

Fascism also offers a society built on the cultural norms of the nation,
No, it offers a society built on what the rulers decide should be the "cultural norms" of the nation (in Nazi Germany's case, Jews were deemed "culturally inferior" and were systematically exterminated) - so if you dissent from the state or dare to be an individual, then you're ****ed.

as well as a strong devotion to nationalism and the military.
You mean blind worship of the state, regardless of how corrupt it is (out of fear of being imprisoned or executed for criticizing it).

So, I want to know what you think. Is fascism a workable system?
Workable but terrible for everyone except the heads of the regime or the ruling class. Be careful what you wish for...
 

Hatuey

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Facism worked for Jews just like anyone else. It was Nazism that didn't work well for Jews. In Facist Italy and Spain, Jews did just fine.
Francisco Franco - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The first decade of Franco's rule in the 1940s following the end of the Civil War in 1939 saw continued oppression and the killing of an indetermined number of political opponents. Estimation is difficult and controversial, but the number of people killed probably lies somewhere between 15,000 and 50,000 (see above, The end of the Civil War).
Subsequently Franco's state became less violent, but during his rule non-government trade unions and all political opponents across the political spectrum, from communist and anarchist organizations to liberal democrats and Catalan or Basque separatists, were either suppressed or tightly controlled by all means, up to and including violent police repression. The Confederación Nacional del Trabajo (CNT) and the Unión General de Trabajadores (UGT) trade-unions were outlawed, and replaced in 1940 by the corporatist Sindicato Vertical. The PSOE Socialist party and the Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya (ERC) were banned in 1939, while the Communist Party of Spain (PCE) went underground. The Basque Nationalist Party (PNV) went into exile, and in 1959, the ETA armed group was created to wage a low-intensity war against Franco.
Franco's Spanish nationalism promoted a unitary national identity by repressing Spain's cultural diversity. Bullfighting and flamenco[51] were promoted as national traditions while those traditions not considered "Spanish" were suppressed. Franco's view of Spanish tradition was somewhat artificial and arbitrary: while some regional traditions were suppressed, Flamenco, an Andalusian tradition, was considered part of a larger, national identity. All cultural activities were subject to censorship, and many were plainly forbidden (often in an erratic manner). This cultural policy relaxed with time, most notably in the late 1960s and early 1970s.
Franco also used language politics in an attempt to establish national homogeneity. He promoted the use of Spanish and suppressed other languages such as Catalan, Galician, and Basque. The legal usage of languages other than Spanish was forbidden. All government, notarial, legal and commercial documents were to be drawn up exclusively in Spanish and any written in other languages were deemed null and void. The usage of any other language was forbidden in schools, in advertising, and on road and shop signs. Publications in other languages were generally forbidden. Citizens continued to speak these languages in private. This was the situation throughout the forties and, to a lesser extent, during the fifties, but after 1960 the non-Castilian Spanish languages were freely spoken and written and reached bookshops and stages, although they never received official status.
On the other hand, the Catholic Church in its most conservative form was made official religion of the Spanish State. Civil servants had to be Catholic, and some official jobs even required a "good behavior" statement by a priest. Civil marriages which had taken place under Republican Spain were declared null and void unless confirmed by the Catholic Church. Civil marriages were only possible after the couple made a public renunciation of the Catholic faith.[citation needed] Divorce was forbidden, and also contraceptives and abortion.
Francoism professed a devotion to the traditional role of women in society, that is: loving child to her parents and brothers, faithful to her husband, residing with her family. Official propaganda confined her role to family care and motherhood. Immediately after the war the situation of women suddenly became adverse, because most progressive laws passed by the Republic were made void. Women could not become judges, or testify in trial. They could not become university professors. Their affairs and economy had to be managed by their father or by their husbands. Until the 1970s a woman could not have a bank account without a co-sign by her father or husband. In the 1960s and 1970s the situation was somewhat relieved, but it was not until Franco's death that a more egalitarian view of the sexes was adopted.[citation needed] The enforcement by public authorities of traditional Catholic values was a stated intent of the regime, mainly by using a law (the Ley de Vagos y Maleantes, Vagrancy Act) enacted by Azaña.[52] The remaining nomads of Spain (Gitanos and Mercheros like El Lute) were especially affected. In 1954, homosexuality, pedophilia, and prostitution were, through this law, made criminal offenses,[53] although its application was seldom consistent.
Most country towns, and rural areas, were patrolled by pairs of Guardia Civil, a military police for civilians, which functioned as his chief means of social control. Larger cities, and capitals, were mostly under the Policia Armada, or "grises" as they were called. Franco, like others at the time,[who?] evidenced a concern about a possible Masonic conspiracy against his regime. Some non-Spanish authors[who?] have described it as being an "obsession".[citation needed]
Student revolts, at universities in the late 1960s and early 1970s, were violently repressed by the heavily armed Policía Armada (Armed Police).
Franco continued to personally sign all death warrants until just months before he died, despite international campaigns requesting him to desist.
[edit]
Italy's Fascist Dictator: The Rise and Fall of Fascism in Italy

He further cemented his power base by reaching financial agreements with the Pope in exchange for his support and endorsement of his leadership, although Mussolini had openly declared his atheist beliefs in the past he understood the importance of the church.

In October 1926, after an assassination scare, Mussolini ended all pretense and officially declared Italy a Fascist Government with King Victor Emmanuel III delegated to the status of figurehead.

The Duce “which meant leader", then began his serious crackdown on Italian society by abolishing all other political parties, eliminating free press, and unleashing his Italian Secret Police force to terrorize any opponents of his policies.

Many historians consider Adolf Hitler histories most ruthless and notorious dictator, but it's a fact that Mussolini ruled Italy for over ten years as a fascist dictator before Hitler even achieved power in Germany.

Hitler admired Mussolini and modeled many of his policies around the Italian model created by Mussolini, such as his Italian Secret Police which he emulated and which was the basis for his feared and hated Gestapo.

The two dictators shared many similar beliefs such as anti-Semitism and formed the Rome-Berlin Alliance in 1936. Mussolini often compared himself to Jesus and Napoleon.

THE BEGINNING OF THE END, OR WAS IT?
In 1940 Mussolini joined with Hitler in his war of conquest against Europe. The war was not popular, but any opposition to Mussolini's wishes were dealt with harshly by his Italian Secret Police.

The Italian war machine was not equal to Germany's and although Mussolini had military success in places like Ethiopia, his inability to conquer Greece was an embarrassment to Hitler.

The Italian people were fed up with the war in Europe, with Germany, and fascism in Italy. The Allied invasion of Sicily was the kicker that created the downfall of "The Duce."

On July, 25th 1943, King Victor Emmanuel III got a small amount of revenge and satisfaction when upon the recommendation of “The Grand Council of the Fascist Party” he ordered the arrest and imprisonment of Benito Mussolini.

MUSSOLINI RETURNS AS A PUPPET

Adolph Hitler was furious when he learned of Mussolini's arrest and tumble from grace. A daring air rescue successfully retrieved Mussolini from his prison and returned him to Hitler where a surprised Adolf Hitler found Mussolini's spirit drained and he initially declined Hitler's offer to forcefully reinstate him as Italy's leader.

Germany controlled Northern Italy and "The Duce" was reluctantly declared the puppet leader of the new "Italian Social Republic." Mussolini was no longer calling the shots and Italy basically became an occupied country.

Germany pillaged as much resources from their former Italian allies as possible and the Italian people suffered greatly under the new regime. Fascism in Italy came to a brutal and devastating end on April 28, 1945 when Mussolini was attempting to flee the country.

Benito Mussolini and his mistress Clara Petacci were caught in a road block by extreme Italian partisans and were both shot to death.

Their mutilated bodies were strung up and displayed for public exhibition. Mussolini's fascist idea's and steel-fisted rule was over and Italy was ecstatic. The allies eventually liberated all of Italy with people dancing and celebrating in the streets and glad that Mussolini had crumbled.
Who is 'anyone' else?
 

rathi

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I'd consider fascism to be a poor system for either running a consumer economy or a militaristic state. The market is infinitely better at determining consumer needs than a central government. If you just want to build military equipment, having a pure command economy without interference is a more efficient method. If you look at WW2, fascism did poorly on a poor economic scale vs both communist and democratic opponents.
 

Hatuey

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That's not true at all Hautey.
It is true indeed.

Chile under Pinochet didn't have fascism, they had laisse-faire capitalism with a dictator.
This is laughable. Laissez Faire? The Chilean government under Pinochet nationalized core industries within the Chilean economy. The fact that they had a dictator only cements my claim. Fascism by nature is authoritarian, anti-democratic and anti-Proletariat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chile_under_Pinochet

During that first period, an economic policy that emphasized export expansion and growth was implemented. While some economists argue that the economic recovery of the second period, from 1982 to 1990, was due to an about-face turn around of Pinochet's free market policy and the fact that, in 1982, he nationalized many of the same industries that were nationalized under Allende and fired the Chicago Boys from their government posts;
http://ecologics.wordpress.com/2007/12/12/northern-rock-neo-liberalism-and-the-ghost-of-pinochet/

I might add that we should not be surprised that it was Gordon Brown’s own [ally] Jack Straw who pardoned Pinochet and let him go back to Chile. New Labour, whose members are even more neo-liberal than the Conservatives, must now be hoping that we have forgotten that the Chilean experiment came to an end in 1983 when Pinochet had to nationalise some of the largest Chilean banks to stop them from going completely bankrupt.
Fascism is system that benefits the workers and the state. If you look at Germany under Hitler for example, you'll see that for the most part it did very well economically, the only bad part was the wars. In fact, much of the new deal was modeled after fascist Italy, as was Winston Churchill in England
Nonsense. For some it was communist. For others it was fascist. The reality lays in how they were implemented. Fascism is dictatorial and vehemently anti-Proletarian. I challenge you to find a single Fascist regime which has benefited the working class in any sense of the word.

In Germany:

- wages dropped,
- trade unions were abolished,
- the basic rights of workers were completely removed,
- small businesses were destroyed

and the destruction of the German economy went on through to 1939. When the 1940s hit it got to the point where Germany now had to abduct people to work for them as slaves. Seriously, for somebody who's a history major this shouldn't be news to you.
 
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Others may define fascism differently. In my opinion, fascism in its mature form has only existed in Germany and Italy during WW2. It is a political behavoir that is obsessed by victimhood or community decline, which eventually leads to some form of redemptive violence. It inevitibely will collapse since its only form of legitamacy comes from a continual radicalization that eventaully leads to war; which is the mechanism used to fulfill the fascist states goals of social darwinism, as well as a "cleansing" of enemies within, and an expansion of the state beyond its original borders to fulfill its destiny as master race,state,etc.
 
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drz-400

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Facism worked for Jews just like anyone else. It was Nazism that didn't work well for Jews. In Facist Italy and Spain, Jews did just fine.
Every Fascist regime has its own specific "enemy" that is contribiting to what it sees as its communities ultimate decline. That is why the germans killed the jews, they thought they were the ones causing all of their problems. In america we had/have a similar group, though it has never attained power, known as the KKK.
 

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Default Fascism: Is it a good system

Hi everyone. I am a history and economics major at my college and throughout the course of my studies I learned a lot about different economic and political systems, and one that I was always found really interesting was fascism. I know that typically people like to talk bad about fascism because of Hitler and Mussolini, but I got to thinking that besides those two bad apples, this system might have something to it.

Fascism basically offers an alternative to both laisse-faire capitalism and socialism. It offers a system based off the concept of "corporatism". Basically, it implies that the state will take a guiding hand in the economy through making corporate-state partnerships, something that is not all that uncommon today.

Fascism also offers a society built on the cultural norms of the nation, as well as a strong devotion to nationalism and the military.

So, I want to know what you think. Is fascism a workable system?

Note: Just for the record I am not a Nazi, nor am I defending the atrocities of the third Reich and other fascists.
Last edited by RobMan121 : Today at 05:36 PM.
I'm not sure you can truly assign any sort of economic system to fascism in general. Its not any sort of formal political ideology like liberalism or communism, its a form of political behavior. The only economic policy fascists tended to support in general were ones that united the nation towards one single goal, which in every case of mature fascism meant preparing the nation for war. I guess the only thing I would call it would be a command economy, which I think we all know the disadvantages of.
 

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This might be true, but doesn't necessarily mean that fascism doesn't work. In fact, imprisoning the opposition might be just what the nation needs to get it going again. In many cases, democracy has failed because have fighting in the streets between political parties and riots by anarchists. All these problem eventually being fixed however, by the implementation of a strong fascist state.
But that's very similar to Legalism used in Asia, and that didn't work either because the punishments for crimes were too harsh. I mean you could make the punishment for jaywalking be life imprisonment, but that won't act as a deterrent. The people will just shrug and jaywalk anyways and accept all the harsher penalties.

And then what happens when you've got more of the population imprisoned than you do free? It takes manpower and resources to imprison criminals. The more criminals you have, the more of a drain on resources it is. At some point it doesn't become worth it to imprison the people.

However, if you don't imprison the people who go against the fascist state, you no longer have fascism because those in power can longer rule from the top.

Thus, fascism doesn't work.
 

John2.0

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But that's very similar to Legalism used in Asia, and that didn't work either because the punishments for crimes were too harsh. I mean you could make the punishment for jaywalking be life imprisonment, but that won't act as a deterrent. The people will just shrug and jaywalk anyways and accept all the harsher penalties.
Actually, I believe it was Legalism that ended the era of the warring states in China.

And then what happens when you've got more of the population imprisoned than you do free? It takes manpower and resources to imprison criminals. The more criminals you have, the more of a drain on resources it is. At some point it doesn't become worth it to imprison the people.
Banishment, or capital punishment for serious crimes against the state.


However, if you don't imprison the people who go against the fascist state, you no longer have fascism because those in power can longer rule from the top.
Many fascist states did the have the support of the majority of the population.
 

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Historically I've seen fascism be amongst the most successful forms of governing and tackling an economy. Most of the reason it didn't do wonders for Chile at that time was because it was still reeling from the catastrophic damage Allende did under his Marxist reign of terror. When you suffer hyperinflation to the point where your money literally isn't worth the paper it's written on overnight, a fix is not in your near future.

Germany under the Third Reich was very prosperous, as was Italy (although not nearly as much). I'd even argue that Spain under Franco didn't do too bad either.
Actually the economic crisis that Chile had during the Allende years (short period of time) was due to US government policies. Nixon had the US government take policies that caused the Chilean economy to scream.


From organizing labour unions in Chile to strike, to dumping copper on the world market to hurt Chile's main export the US government under Nixon caused much of the economic problems in Chile during the Allende years


Do a search on Nixon and Chile using this quote "''make the economy of Chile scream"
 
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