Even if they were told that - how is showing a loving couple embracing and kissing "celebrating a homosexual lifestyle"?
What exactly IS celebrating a "homosexual lifestyle" anyway? gay pride flags all over the vestry? Dykes on bikes driving up the aisle? Sex on the altar? Or is it a celebration of one's family and friends, which all of us do?
Were they ever told "no pictures of the spouses together"? That would be so cruel. How can you cut out the loved ones of the dead person?
He should have just said "I"m sorry, I don't do funerals for lesbian couples" and let them find someone else.
Or, when he realized that his interpretation of "celebrating a homosexual lifestyle" was different than theirs, he should have had the grace, humility and love of humankind to continue anyway.
:shrug: I don't know - I took it for what it was worth. If it's not correct, it's not correct.
If the church did establish ground rules, then do you agree that it was those who broke the agreement who violated trust?
...The eviction of a funeral mid-service at a Lakewood church could have been avoided had a clash of beliefs between a pastor and a lesbian family been vented beforehand, religious leaders said Wednesday.
For Pastor Ray Chavez, allowing images of a gay couple to be displayed in the New Hope Ministries church he founded in 1981 would be akin to condoning a lifestyle condemned in the Bible, religious associates said. But the family of the deceased woman, Vanessa Collier, said they were only renting the church, brought their own minister and had no intention of causing doctrinal discord.
Collier's funeral services Saturday were interrupted when Chavez told her family that no images of Collier with her wife, Christina Higley, would be allowed. During an open-casket viewing 15 minutes before the funeral service, the family chose instead to leave the church, carrying the casket and flowers to a funeral home across the street....
Neither Chavez nor other church leaders returned calls seeking comment on Wednesday.
But religious authorities who know Chavez say while legitimate criticism can be made about a failure to communicate church theology to the gay family, expecting the pastor to alter his beliefs to accommodate anyone would be a sin itself....
Why the **** are you asking ME this stuff???
I wasn't there, I don't know the details of the arrangement, I had no say in the decision process, and I am not here to validate your belief system.
"However, the family did not receive any word that they would be turned away until 15 minutes after the memorial service was already scheduled to begin."
Lakewood Church Refuses to Host Lesbian Funeral - World Religion News
"However, the family did not receive any word that they would be turned away until 15 minutes after the memorial service was already scheduled to begin."
Lakewood Church Refuses to Host Lesbian Funeral - World Religion News
The lack of quotes coming directly from the pastor isn't due to the media not trying. The local news contacted the pastor for comment, and they hung up the phone when they realized it was the media. I guess he doesn't want to talk about it publicly.... :shrug:
But the family tells the media they want their money refunded, and that looks really bad for now.
:roll: is this the part where I say you are lying? The family wasn't told they would be turned away, they were told they couldn't display images of the deceased with her wife.
"...The pastor who called off the funeral defended his actions to KCNC, saying he hadn't been aware of the video until right before the service, and that he gave the family the chance to edit it.
"New Hope did their absolutely very best to accommodate this family in their hour of need,"Chaplain Gary Rolando said.
He also told KMGH, "We don't want overt, open homosexuality in our sanctuary." But he did offer an apology, saying, "New Hope is very sorry. ... It's very sad that it happened the way that it did."
The funeral home is the place where the showing occurs. Anywhere from one day to two. They are the ones who make up the videos using family photos part of their package deal along with asking the family to provide photos that they can display throughout the showing room. The family of the deceased picks out the casket, the vault, the memorial cards, the visitors book, the type of music to be played during the showing, all provided for a price. The service, Eulogy itself can either be performed at the funeral home or a church. These people wanted the Eulogy at the church. They chose the church that was directly across the street from the funeral home. From the OP it appears they chose the church over the funeral home because of the spacious seating versus what the funeral home could provide. Unfortunately for them, in choosing the church meant abiding by their stipulations.
I think I know what happened,..... the funeral home was responsible for taking the body across the street to the church from the funeral home. They also took all the flowers and video they produced and family pictures displayed at the funeral home provided by the family into the church and set them up. Instead of the family members having the video and pictures removed that were against the agreement with the church, the pastor refused the service.
These people were not interested in a Christian burial but wanted to use the church for the service because it could accommodate more people comfortably. And when they got what they wanted, they were unwilling to meet the pastor's terms expecting him to accommodate them even further and it didn't work out in their favor which resulted in the body being removed from the church and back across the street to funeral home where they all complained that it was cramped and many had to stand. Poor babies.
Not at all consistent with what you've been posting here, and called on your hatred of religion you decide to go soft because you know it's hate. I know very well how tolerance works, I also know how to recognize tactics and games. We have not been discussing whether this church had the right to refuse blessing until the offending material was removed. We were discussing your kneejerk comments about cruelty and lack of forgiveness.
And?We tend to challenge a person who makes a statement without providing proof.
You think? Well all I can tell you is I have been through several funeral plannings. I know how it goes. You brought up the video, been there done that along with all the family pictures. And I know that a non member of a congregation that is deceased is not left in the sanctuary of any church only for the brief moments of the Eulogy and then it is off to the cemetery.You're assuming a lot about what they family wanted and why, and their motivates.
And?
By challenging aren't you now required to provide proof as part of the challenge?
They DO allow sinners in. Thats not the point. The point is they dont allow celebration of the sin. It seems like such a simple compromise. Have the ceremony there, celebrate her life. If you want to celebrate her sexuality as part of her life, have it someplace else. No harm...no foul...and good for everyone.
I will repost the link that is provided in the OP or the link that has been added recently if you want but it has been posted.
Hidious? I wouldn't use that word Nota. No one in this country should be forced to go against their moral conscience regardless. If they couldn't abide by the pastor's request to use his church, what choice did they give him? They had no respect whatsoever for the pastor and defied his wishes. Luckily for them the funeral home was just across the street.
I completely agree. I think that was the churches position. Remove a few pictures and the ceremony goes forward. The family refused. Sad.Not much difference between celebrating the life of a gay person and celebrating the life of someone on their second marriage (after divorce, which would be to live as an adulterer --- see Matthew 5).... they are pretty similar things in the eyes of God. My guess is this pastor has more of a personal issue with the sin of being gay while giving a complete pass to those living in the adultery or a second (or living together outside of) marriage.
Yes, all men are sinners and fall short of the glory of God. One does not have to celebrate the sin; but its ok to celebrate the life of the sinner.
Many mainline protestant churches. Even most Methodist Churches. They could have went to any of those denominations and any of those Churches would have been completely accepting of their daughter and her family. So why on earth did they go the house of bigots to have her funeral?
It certainly can be. If, for example, the woman I happen to feel "love" for at the moment is not the woman I am "married" to, then yes, absolutely, romantic physical intimacy with her is a sin.
I suppose it would depend upon context - is that the man that she lived with and slept with? If so, then, well, yes.
Then they should say things like "please do not include celebrations of alcohol in the church", and those who are arranging the funeral should honor that if they want to use the space for the funeral.
The people who decided to ignore the Church's requests here are the ones who created a problem and attempted to force their preferences on others. Good on the pastor for (hopefully politely) refusing to compromise on principles.
The Church is called upon both to judge actions and not to celebrate sin.
Probably for cultural reasons.
Evidenlty, the woman was not a formal member of any church, even a gay friendly one. It is distinctly possible that she,or her partner was of evangelical back ground, and thus turned to that tradition in times of stress. Who knows, the partner may of even been willing to follow the church rules on not displaying particular photographs, but her family might of decided to force the issue.
Anecdotally, I knew a very nominal Jew whose personal life was at odds with conservative judaism. Though she could have found a progressive synagouge easily, she sought counceling from the conservatives due to her childhood back ground. I doubt they affirmed all aspects of her lifestyle (heterosexual- in fact, very heterosexual). Had she passed away when I knew her, I bet her choice for a funeral would of been conservative, even though she rejected their teachings on sexuality and other things.
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