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Faith vs Works

RAMOSS

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LOL...you can't even give me one scripture to back up your point so i won't be losing any sleep over it...

I have not seen you actually quote scripture yourself. How about doing that, and discussing it, in your own words.
 

Elora

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I have not seen you actually quote scripture yourself. How about doing that, and discussing it, in your own words.

No...not with you...aren't you in the wrong forum?
 

RAMOSS

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No...not with you...aren't you in the wrong forum?

No, I am not.

I just would like you to support your claim. Can you?
 

William Rea

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Sez your interpretation. Mine is different: a righteous life is what counts. God couldn’t care less about what we believe. (He is not a super narcissist like our prez.) Do good. Avoid evil. You got it made in the shade.
I've heard various ways of saying it but, the most predominant thing I have heard said is that, 'the only unforgivable sin is to not have faith'. I don't hear the works thing much except in the context of 'being in the spirit' would show itself by righteous acts.
 

ludin

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I was raised Catholic, and was always curious about Protestant belief about the requirement of faith for one to be saved. We were taught that baptism was necessary, but that those not baptized who either died for their faith (see the end of the movie Quo Vadis) or who lived moral lives but never heard of Jesus (or even rejected him) had received “baptism of blood” or “baptism of desire” respectfully.

Catholics tend to believe that Luther overreacted to church corruption in the selling of indulgences to posit that faith is the most necessary factor. Our key quote was “Faith without works is dead,” from St James epistle, I believe. It always seemed to me that the necessity of faith made God seem like a narcissist.

Comments? Forgive me if this has been covered in another thread and please direct me to that conversation.

Works is a sign of faith. Nothing more. Christ preach several messages about works and no faith.
Without faith salavation is not possible.

As for baptism what is baptism? It is identifying with the death burial and resurrection of Christ. It is an outward sign that you have accepted Christ as your savior. Baptism alone cannot save you.

The selling of indulgences was corrupt and Luther was right. There is only one person that can forgive sin.
That is Christ. Why? He already paid the price for sin. The debt of sin has been paid so why buy something that has already been paid for?
 

ludin

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What you have outlined is a beautiful vision of His love and mercy. What I don’t get is the notion that a moral upright non-believer, one who has never heard of or who rejects Jesus in good conscience , is somehow not saved. I remember Jimmy Swaggert saying that all Mother Teresa’s good works did not bring her one step closer to heaven. Jimmy had his own issues as we know, but that is the sentiment I presume Luther’s break with Rome led to in some quarters.

Or am I missing the point?

Sin. People miss out on that simple yet most significant thing.
That is one thing God cannot stand.

Yes He is a loving God but He is also a just God.
For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life.

Think of it is way. If I go out and build 500 homes for homeless people I am a great person, but then I go burn down a building.
Those 500 homes doesn't matter. I would go to jail.
 

tosca1

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Sez your interpretation. Mine is different: a righteous life is what counts. God couldn’t care less about what we believe. (He is not a super narcissist like our prez.) Do good. Avoid evil. You got it made in the shade.

Well.....you're contradicting the Guy whom you claimed to have gotten it right: Jesus.

According to Jesus.....you have to believe in Him - that He's who He says He is - for you to be saved.
Furthermore, He also stipulated what Commandment is the most important of all.
To believe in Him is to believe in what He says.

If your aim is not salvation/eternal life......why bother going through the motion of being a Christian?

However, if your goal is eternal life, you've got to follow the stipulated QUALIFIER (which is, to believe in Him) - otherwise, you're disqualified!



The life you're living now, is the one and only chance you'll ever get to "play by the books."
This life isn't a trial run.

Your belief is the number one thing that counts the most.

It's your life you're gambling with. Free will. Your choice.
 
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American

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I was raised Catholic, and was always curious about Protestant belief about the requirement of faith for one to be saved. We were taught that baptism was necessary, but that those not baptized who either died for their faith (see the end of the movie Quo Vadis) or who lived moral lives but never heard of Jesus (or even rejected him) had received “baptism of blood” or “baptism of desire” respectfully.

Catholics tend to believe that Luther overreacted to church corruption in the selling of indulgences to posit that faith is the most necessary factor. Our key quote was “Faith without works is dead,” from St James epistle, I believe. It always seemed to me that the necessity of faith made God seem like a narcissist.

Comments? Forgive me if this has been covered in another thread and please direct me to that conversation.

He's the boss, he gets to make the rules. Your approval is irrelevant.
 

American

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Well, think about it...what was the motive or lack thereof from Adam and Eve's sinning? Was it not a lack of faith in God and His all powerful wisdom to know that was best for them? Is that not why Eve ate of the fruit and Adam followed? With God, faith is everything...if we lack faith in Him, we have nothing...and rightfully so...

James 2:
[17] So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
[18] But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
[19] You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder.
[20] Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?
[21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
[22] You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
[23] and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God.
[24] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
[25] And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
[26] For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

Faith demonstrated by works.
 

gfm7175

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Sez your interpretation. Mine is different: a righteous life is what counts. God couldn’t care less about what we believe. (He is not a super narcissist like our prez.) Do good. Avoid evil. You got it made in the shade.
Nickyjo,

I pray that you will rethink your position on this after carefully reading through the books of Romans and Galatians. I would specifically point you to Romans 3:1 - 3:31 and Galatians 2:14 - 3:29.

In short, the Bible specifically says the opposite of what you are saying. The Bible says that we are saved by faith and faith alone. So how do you acquire that faith? Romans 10:17 answers that question. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this after carefully and prayerfully reading through my suggested verses, and hopefully also reading through the whole books as well. I hope you find the truth...

God's blessings,

gfm7175
 

CrabCake

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Nickyjo,

I pray that you will rethink your position on this after carefully reading through the books of Romans and Galatians. I would specifically point you to Romans 3:1 - 3:31 and Galatians 2:14 - 3:29.

In short, the Bible specifically says the opposite of what you are saying. The Bible says that we are saved by faith and faith alone. So how do you acquire that faith? Romans 10:17 answers that question. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this after carefully and prayerfully reading through my suggested verses, and hopefully also reading through the whole books as well. I hope you find the truth...

God's blessings,

gfm7175

We all like to think that our view is what "the Bible specifically says". But it's rarely that simple. For example, Jesus is talking to people who have faith in him, have called out to him, and have been actively prophesying, casting out demons, and doing miracles in his name when he tells them: "I never knew you; away from me you workers of iniquity". What differentiates those people Jesus claims not to know from the ones that he does? Not their faith, for both had it, nor their "acceptance of Jesus into their heart" since Matthew 7:21 makes clear both groups had called out to Jesus. What differentiates the two groups is that one was doing the will of the father and the other wasn't (despite the fact they were prophesying, performing miracles, and and casting out demons). Perhaps the scariest part of that verse is that both groups of individuals were sure they knew Jesus and were serving him, yet Jesus didn't know one group. Jesus seems to say that obedience is the key and without it, your faith won't save you.

Now, that passage isn't the last word on this topic either. My point isn't to try to summarize all of soteriology in that one passage. My point is to show that one can reach more than just one conclusion about soteriology using the Bible. Thus we should be open to the fact that the way we see things is not the only valid conclusion one can reach from the biblical evidence. I could go a step further than saying, as you did: "the Bible specifically says the opposite of what you are saying". I could, given the aforementioned passage say: "Jesus specifically says the opposite of what you are saying".

We need to be open to the fact that the conclusions we reach are not the only possible conclusions one can legitimately reach using scripture.


Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’


In addition to that, there are verses which seem to point towards universal reconciliation or even apokatastasis. Then there are others which seem to imply you will be judged according to how you treated people. It's not enough to just pick out the verses that support our preferred option and pretend that's what "The Bible specifically says".
 
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gfm7175

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Jesus is talking to people who have faith in him, have called out to him, and have been actively prophesying, casting out demons, and doing miracles in his name when he tells them: "I never knew you; away from me you workers of iniquity".
I don't think one can assume that everyone present at that sermon "had faith in [Jesus], etc." if that's what you're saying... If you're saying that the people of whom Jesus was talking about in those verses had faith in him, then I'm not sure where you are getting that information from. Those verses said that there will be people who do good works, and link God's name to those works, but yet those people won't actually "know" him... they won't have true faith in him and what he did for them. Instead, they will keep sinning and never truly repent for their sins (doers of iniquity), so Jesus will cast them out, even though they, during their lifetimes, linked his name to the good works that they were doing.

His Sermon on the Mount was not contradicting my position (which wasn't based on cherry picked verses, but rather is supported by the sentiment expressed throughout the whole New Testament) that faith, not good works, is what saves people. Good works will happen as a result of having said faith, but it is not the works themselves which are doing the saving; it is the faith in Jesus and what he alone did for us all (dying on the cross) that does the saving.
 
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Nickyjo

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Works is a sign of faith. Nothing more. Christ preach several messages about works and no faith.
Without faith salavation is not possible.

As for baptism what is baptism? It is identifying with the death burial and resurrection of Christ. It is an outward sign that you have accepted Christ as your savior. Baptism alone cannot save you.

The selling of indulgences was corrupt and Luther was right. There is only one person that can forgive sin.
That is Christ. Why? He already paid the price for sin. The debt of sin has been paid so why buy something that has already been paid for?

The way we Catholics squared that circle was thru the notion often called “already but not yet.” Jesus saved us, but not everyone who called him Lord gets to heaven. He who does the will of the father, etc. One assumes that those at the last judgement whom Jesus excluded believed, but neglected the poor, those in prison, etc. Bottom line: Jesus did it all but still requires you to meet him halfway. The Catholic Church, through the notion of purgatory, maintained that one still had dues to pay based on Jesus’ words, and indulgences helped with that. Naturally, since they ran the world, things got corrupt.
 

ludin

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The way we Catholics squared that circle was thru the notion often called “already but not yet.” Jesus saved us, but not everyone who called him Lord gets to heaven. He who does the will of the father, etc. One assumes that those at the last judgement whom Jesus excluded believed, but neglected the poor, those in prison, etc. Bottom line: Jesus did it all but still requires you to meet him halfway. The Catholic Church, through the notion of purgatory, maintained that one still had dues to pay based on Jesus’ words, and indulgences helped with that. Naturally, since they ran the world, things got corrupt.

If Christ is the final sacrifice for sin, and Christ paid the debt of sin then what left is there to pay?

A simple example. You are eating lunch and I come up out of no where and go I will pay her bill.
I pay your bill and you don't know. You go to check out and the person says your bill is paid.
A gentleman came in and paid it.

Yet you insist on paying it. The owner says sorry there is nothing to pay it has already been covered.

That is what is screwed up with indulgences. They were trying to pay for something that had been paid for already.
There is no half way. It is all the way or no way.

You are either saved through faith or you are not.
 

CrabCake

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If you're saying that the people of whom Jesus was talking about in those verses had faith in him, then I'm not sure where you are getting that information from.

I'm getting it from the mouth of Jesus. Here it is again:

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

These people called on Jesus. They even stepped out in faith and began to prophecy, work miracles, and cast out demons in his name. It came from Jesus' own words.

gfm7175 said:
Those verses said that there will be people who do good works, and link God's name to those works, but yet those people won't actually "know" him

No, it doesn't. The story portrays people who are genuinely surprised to discover that despite the fact they considered Jesus their Lord and were serving him, are not known to Jesus because they weren't obeying the father. It's a warning for Christians to stay on the narrow road (which is actually how this passage begins back in verse 13) and that culminates in verse 29 with the warning about actually doing the work and not just listening to the words so that you won't be the house built on sand.

My point is that there are a multiplicity of views on soteriology in the bible; thus why Christians have debated the issue through the centuries. The first Christians had more debates over whether Satan himself would be saved than over whether there were humans who wouldn't be. Universal reconciliation and apokatastasis are the earliest understandings of salvation. From that we evolve towards the Orthodox understanding of salvation through our communion with the body of Christ via the Church and eventually towards the concept of "Saving Grace" and then doctrines of Sola Fide that arise with the reformation. There's a reason that Christians through the centuries haven't universally agreed with you; because the scriptures as not as clear on this issue as you seem to believe.

Here's a portion of scripture that supports yet another view of soteriology; this one based purely on works and focused specifically on how you treat the poor and immigrants:

Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46 said:
When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”


Now, I'm not saying that salvation is works based. I'm just showing how someone who believes that it is can begin with a passage like this one and build their soteriology from that. The fact is that whether you realize it or not, your view is not the only view of salvation that can be supported with scripture. It's disingenuous to make claims such as "The Bible clearly says..." or "supported by the sentiment expressed throughout the New Testament" when your opinion is merely one of several opinions that Christians have reached through the centuries of studying those exact same scripture; for that matter your opinion happens to be a very new one and is still a minority opinion within the Christian community. That's all I'm pointing out.
 
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Nickyjo

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Well.....you're contradicting the Guy whom you claimed to have gotten it right: Jesus.

According to Jesus.....you have to believe in Him - that He's who He says He is - for you to be saved.
Furthermore, He also stipulated what Commandment is the most important of all.
To believe in Him is to believe in what He says.

If your aim is not salvation/eternal life......why bother going through the motion of being a Christian?

However, if your goal is eternal life, you've got to follow the stipulated QUALIFIER (which is, to believe in Him) - otherwise, you're disqualified!



The life you're living now, is the one and only chance you'll ever get to "play by the books."
This life isn't a trial run.

Your belief is the number one thing that counts the most.

It's your life you're gambling with. Free will. Your choice.

Sorry. Doesn’t cut it. Someone doesn’t believe, lives a life of doing good, is saved. Baptism of desire. Someone believes but cheats his neighbor, can be forgiven, but waits in line behind the righteous man. Jesus is not an egomaniac.
 

Nickyjo

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He's the boss, he gets to make the rules. Your approval is irrelevant.

And he made it very clear: not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter heaven. You have to do the will of my father. Christ didn’t demand faith, but service. How do you reconcile a just God who would separate precious humans from him simply because they don’t believe. Not a nice person.
 

rybco

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don’t understand. If i live a good life, do good to others, don’t cheat my neighbors, etc., why should god care if i don’t believe in him or never heard of him?

if????
 

Nickyjo

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If Christ is the final sacrifice for sin, and Christ paid the debt of sin then what left is there to pay?

A simple example. You are eating lunch and I come up out of no where and go I will pay her bill.
I pay your bill and you don't know. You go to check out and the person says your bill is paid.
A gentleman came in and paid it.

Yet you insist on paying it. The owner says sorry there is nothing to pay it has already been covered.

That is what is screwed up with indulgences. They were trying to pay for something that had been paid for already.
There is no half way. It is all the way or no way.

You are either saved through faith or you are not.

So the all-merciful God condemns someone cause they never heard of him or in good conscience fail to believe in him. That God is too small, an egomaniac. I prefer the parts of scripture that put greater emphasis on what one does, not what one believes. Don’t blame me, blame Jesus for what he said about the last judgement: he condemned believers who didn’t help the poor or visit the imprisoned. I thought the bill was paid, they might say. Not so fast Jesus might say. Your faith is dead without works.
 
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rybco

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I prefer the parts of scripture that put greater emphasis on what one does, not what one believes.


It doesn't matter what YOU prefer. It has all to do with what one believes and how they respond in their actions, duh. . .
 

tosca1

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Sorry. Doesn’t cut it. Someone doesn’t believe, lives a life of doing good, is saved.

Which part of the Scriptures do you base that?




Baptism of desire. Someone believes but cheats his neighbor, can be forgiven, but waits in line behind the righteous man. Jesus is not an egomaniac.

No, Jesus of the NT, isn't an egomaniac. :roll:
But......you must be talking about another Jesus.
Because, the Jesus we talk about from the Bible, had never said such!


Here's a supporting statement from Jesus of the Bible, that clearly says faith and obedience are required.

Matthew 7
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you.
Away from me, you evildoers!’





Clearly, there aren't many ways to be saved. Ther's only one way.


What's the will of His Father?


It is important to know God’s will. Jesus said that His true relations are those who know and do the Father’s will: “Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother” (Mark 3:35). In the parable of the two sons, Jesus rebukes the chief priests and elders for failing to do the will of the Father; specifically, they “did not repent and believe” (Matthew 21:32).

At its most basic, the will of God is to repent of our sin and trust in Christ. If we have not taken that first step, then we have not yet accepted God’s will.
https://www.gotquestions.org/know-God-will.html




To repent, is to have sincere regret and feelings of remorse.
It involves a genuine desire and attempt to change from our evil ways.
Lip-service doesn't cut it - God will know what's in our hearts. We can't fool God.

If we have faith in Christ - our deeds will reflect it.
 
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CrabCake

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Which part of the Scriptures do you base that?

An Evangelical Inclusivist Defends Evangelical Inclusivism

This provides a fairly good summary.

For a more complete exegesis, you might consider reading "The Evangelical Universalist" by Gregory Macdonald or look up some of the talks and interviews he's given, some of which have been uploaded to youtube (probably under his real name: Robin Parry).

I like the way Billy Graham put it:
Billy Graham said:
And that's what God is doing today, He's calling people out of the world for His name, whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ because they've been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus but they know in their hearts that they need something that they don't have, and they turn to the only light that they have, and I think that they are saved, and that they're going to be with us in heaven.

and CS Lewis
CS Lewis said:
"We do know that no person can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved by Him."
 

laska

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The scriptures are pretty clear it takes faith and works and then Christ's Atonement takes care of the rest as all fall short, but we must do all we can do.
 
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