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Faith vs Works

CrabCake

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Magnificent words!

But I think that one can do good without the transformation, as I believe that humans are beings that tend towards the good. Sort of like Fr. Flanagan, the founder of Boys's Town, who reportedly said, "There's no such thing as a bad boy." Of course, Charles Manson went to Boy's Town, so I assume the good father might have acknowledged exceptions to his rule.

I think we would agree on the important functional aspects but disagree in the way we talk about it. I would not describe people as tending towards the good because I believe in the doctrines of original sin and total depravity. I would talk about it in terms of our response to the grace given to us by God on the cross that empowers us to act against our nature and choose good. So, although I could not agree with the statement that human beings tend towards the good, at least not naturally, I believe the grace of God empowers us and indeed encourages us, to overcome our evil nature. In that sense, as long as we do not resist that grace it will draw us towards good. Ultimately though, I think both of our views are functionally identical, they just differ in how we talk about what is happening because we acknowledge different sources for those good acts (human nature being good vs God empowering us to do good against our own nature).
 
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LesGovt

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No offense taken. I am in touch with my feminine side.

I apologize for stating an incorrect gender. Now that I know, I will try not to make that mistake again.

I believe your answers that were in the quote of my comments explain why we differ. Thanks for your responses.
 

tosca1

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Of course not, but this forum is about expressing opinions.

I know. But because of what you express.....I'm saying, the the rules are given by God. They're not negotiable.
That's why I'm asking you, what's your reason for being a Christian?
I'm not asking that as an offense.....I want to know what's in it for you? What's your goal?

I am a follower of Christ because of His promise - salvation and eternal life. I want those.
I'm running the race to reach that goal.
 

Nickyjo

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I know. But because of what you express.....I'm saying, the the rules are given by God. They're not negotiable.
That's why I'm asking you, what's your reason for being a Christian?
I'm not asking that as an offense.....I want to know what's in it for you? What's your goal?

I am a follower of Christ because of His promise - salvation and eternal life. I want those.
I'm running the race to reach that goal.

Am Christian by culture and profess a no doubt flawed desire to do good and avoid evil. My faith has me concerned about compassion and justice in this life, figuring the afterlife will take care of itself. Probably not the best strategy, but one that fits how I was raised by my parents and taught by the wonderful nuns in an Italian parish in Brooklyn.
 

Elora

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Am Christian by culture and profess a no doubt flawed desire to do good and avoid evil. My faith has me concerned about compassion and justice in this life, figuring the afterlife will take care of itself. Probably not the best strategy, but one that fits how I was raised by my parents and taught by the wonderful nuns in an Italian parish in Brooklyn.

Then you have missed the whole motive/meaning of being Christian...
 

LesGovt

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Am Christian by culture and profess a no doubt flawed desire to do good and avoid evil. My faith has me concerned about compassion and justice in this life, figuring the afterlife will take care of itself. Probably not the best strategy, but one that fits how I was raised by my parents and taught by the wonderful nuns in an Italian parish in Brooklyn.

Is it your opinion that people who believe in the full Word of the Bible are not compassionate and do not seek justice in this life?
 

grip

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I was raised Catholic, and was always curious about Protestant belief about the requirement of faith for one to be saved. We were taught that baptism was necessary, but that those not baptized who either died for their faith (see the end of the movie Quo Vadis) or who lived moral lives but never heard of Jesus (or even rejected him) had received “baptism of blood” or “baptism of desire” respectfully.

Catholics tend to believe that Luther overreacted to church corruption in the selling of indulgences to posit that faith is the most necessary factor. Our key quote was “Faith without works is dead,” from St James epistle, I believe. It always seemed to me that the necessity of faith made God seem like a narcissist.

Comments? Forgive me if this has been covered in another thread and please direct me to that conversation.

If hell is here on earth, then everyone is saved. Question answered?
 

Nickyjo

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Is it your opinion that people who believe in the full Word of the Bible are not compassionate and do not seek justice in this life?

Of course not. Years ago I had the pleasure of attending a church meeting together with other half cynical Catholics. It included things we could not relate to, such as speaking in tongues, but all of us were impressed with the love and concern the congregants had for one another, the way they helped one another etc.
 

grip

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Sorry, don’t get your point.

There's only one place, earth. There's another dimension or continuum after this world called Heaven, where we all go. Simple enough?
 

Elora

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There's only one place, earth. There's another dimension or continuum after this world called Heaven, where we all go. Simple enough?

What scripture says that?
 

Elora

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I bet you take parables literally also? Look for the answers between the lines.

No I do not, but I know the truth when i read it...everyone does not go to heaven...that is a basic teaching of the Bible...
 

grip

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No I do not, but I know the truth when i read it...everyone does not go to heaven...that is a basic teaching of the Bible...

Absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt everyone goes to heaven. Besides, it's not your decision to make.

The truth? You know it? Tell me what does it set you free from?
 

Elora

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Absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt everyone goes to heaven. Besides, it's not your decision to make.

The truth? You know it? Tell me what does it set you free from?

Sure you do...keep reading whatever you're reading but it ain't the Bible...:roll:
 

grip

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Sure you do...keep reading whatever you're reading but it ain't the Bible...:roll:

You don't even know how the truth frees you, so don't preach to me. :2wave:
 

Elora

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You don't even know how the truth frees you, so don't preach to me. :2wave:

LOL...you can't even give me one scripture to back up your point so i won't be losing any sleep over it...
 

grip

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LOL...you can't even give me one scripture to back up your point so i won't be losing any sleep over it...

And that's why you don't know the truth, because you rely on others words to know your heart.
 

Nickyjo

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Says the Bible/God/Jesus...if you're gonna call yourself a follower of theirs, at least go by their rules...

Sez your interpretation. Mine is different: a righteous life is what counts. God couldn’t care less about what we believe. (He is not a super narcissist like our prez.) Do good. Avoid evil. You got it made in the shade.
 

Elora

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Sez your interpretation. Mine is different: a righteous life is what counts. God couldn’t care less about what we believe. (He is not a super narcissist like our prez.) Do good. Avoid evil. You got it made in the shade.

You are deceiving yourself...but whatever...
 

RAMOSS

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Says the Bible/God/Jesus...if you're gonna call yourself a follower of theirs, at least go by their rules...

That is not very specific. Can you give specific quotes, in context, and show how it relates?
 
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