Faith and government

[Tsunamie]

Faith described by dictionary.com as

faith definition |Dictionary.com

"Belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact."
There are others but I thought this was the most relevant. The English dictionary is more brutal on this word.
It concerns me that cults or religious groups are so abundant in America. Dividing and secularising communities. I find that the people involved in these groups are more aggressive and violent. I am concerned that the American government’s inability to deal with such issues has spilled over to the UK political domain.

The most promising thing in history was the shedding of religion within our judicial system as well as the factual basis of our education system. In the UK, the bible is not taught in the curriculum for very good reason. There is no proof!

I am also slightly confused on the statistics provided by the major news providers in the USA. AS CNN quotes that 47% of America’s believe the earth is 10k years old. If I was to take that literal, the statistic he claims is that he has done a poll for all 250 million US citizens and received all replies or close to 200 million replies to qualify there statistic. Not only is this disturbing but such basic understanding of the world is generally flawed.

For example –

Science is the deliberation of information with rules and laws hat and quantified. However civilians have less time to read and process information. A person that reads a book with the one line the “earth is several billion years old” is no better than a person who reads the bible and quotes “Adam and eve were created”. Because this would mean Faith is placed in the provider of the information and that each statement is a fact.
Where as a quantified statement such as, “our observation of matter shows relative force gravity can affect the creation of a planet. However this process must build such momentum which indicates several billion years are required to create the earth” is a more descriptive explanation on how it is possible for our planet to be here.

Bottom line is how has it come to the point where we have taken 1 step forward and 2 steps back.

With faith based subject taught in our curriculum. In the UK we have a course called religious studies and I would like to point out that it is made clear to students in this subject that everything is relative to an opinion and that the information in the subject is based on a perspective.

 

[Apostle13]

The Bible defines Faith as; “The evidence of things hoped for but not yet seen.” The USA was founded on religious freedom… Many religions have either spawned within or infiltrated our populous since. Tolerance is a key component. We are many and yet we are one. Radicals in our midst are ever-increasing with inevitable future consequence. Much of Science is itself based on theory, thus faith, can it then be said science is a religion also..? Well certainly not factual science. For some (self incl.) faith is proven. Let the individual decide.

 

[scourge99]

Much of Science is itself based on theory, thus faith, can it then be said science is a religion also..?

What in science requires "faith"?

Theory /= faith.

A theory is a logical deduction based off evidence.

Faith is a belief that is so ill conceived and lax it allows your imagination to be considered truth.

 

[Tsunamie]

Religion does not allow for this. It has one simply method of deduction. Words in a book are interoperated by the reader whom create thee own group based on the faith that individual has.
So bottom line, if I teach the story book of superman to children in your education system. I would achieve just as much by teaching children the stories of the Bible, Karan.
We have a lot of tolerance in the UK. However your argument of tolerance is flawed.
Example – Scientology’s approach towards individuals that perform investigations on the group. This group is extremely aggressive and intolerant of others.
So to answer each statement in bullet points.
1>Science is not a faith or Religion. I qualify this by giving you a link to the definition religion definition |Dictionary.com
Science does not answer why we exist and it has been segregated from science in the birth of logic. By men such a Plato who with many others understood the difference between philosophy and science. They understood and separated the why with how. They are two different questions.
2>Religion is prone to intolerance. Religion is the definition of a statement that is believes to be fact which can’t be proven or disproven. This brings contention between different beliefs and inevitable conflict. Religion has been proven to be the point of conflict, a group of individuals that feel that their belief is being questioned and possible proven incorrect.
There are no cases of scientist wage war against one another. Even on the climate change, the discuses and debate in a forum suited for the topic.
So my question is why faith has and religion seeped into the education system? I guess a good question is why do people need Religion? Everything that is talked about in religion is achievable with our religion itself. I can be kind to people without the belief in the reward of heaven. In fact I believe that such a person is better than a religious person. As he has no reason for being kind other than to be kind.

 

[Tsunamie]

What in science requires "faith"?

Theory /= faith.

A theory is a logical deduction based off evidence.

Faith is a belief that is so ill conceived and lax it allows your imagination to be considered truth.

You are correct in a since. However the context of his statement is not incorrect. His justification is that a Theory is based on a belief that something works a specific way or something happened in a specific way that has not been measured or observed is correct.

Some theory is simply ideas until someone proves they are correct with an experiment. However what truly defines a religion is the ability to devise an experiment or logical deduction based on observable evidence.

This is where science and religion part. Religion makes no attempts to do so. Where Science makes every attempt to disprove what it knows and to insure the core fact is true.

The core problem is that the books were written in an age where information was very difficult to confirm. There is very little artificial evidence to prove a lot of the assumptions or even to confirm that it occurred.

How do you prove a higher power parted the sea for Moses is a perfect example? It’s not as if we can ask God to update his 10 commandments either or to confirm whether the evens happened. In the modern world creationism is how religious groups try to use logic and science to prove their religion is not wrong. Unfortunately most of the scientific knowledge used in there deductions are out of date and has been proven to be wrong or slightly different. Also the use of statistical probability is used to confuse the audience to simply number games.

this is the problem with religion. It's an out of date governing system.

 

[MrFungus420]

For some (self incl.) faith is proven.

And science is supported by evidence.

If faith is proven, then it is provable.

Prove it.

 

[MrFungus420]

You are correct in a since. However the context of his statement is not incorrect. His justification is that a Theory is based on a belief that something works a specific way or something happened in a specific way that has not been measured or observed is correct.

No.

Theories are based on evidence, not faith.

 

[Apostle13]

And science is supported by evidence.

If faith is proven, then it is provable.

Prove it.

It is proven for me as an individual thru the factoring of spirituality... It is unproven to you by the lack thereof, or so I would assume.

 

[Mach]

The Bible defines Faith as "The evidence of things hoped for but not yet seen

Which is a contradiction. If it isn't yet known, you by definition DO NOT HAVE EVIDENCE FOR IT.

Try it, you'll like it.
I have evidence that Bob killed my mother.
I no longer need to *hope* I find the person who murdered my mother, the evidence leads us to conclude we KNOW who murdered my mother.

I have evidence, via proof, that this mathematic answer is incorrect.
I do not HOPE it's incorrect, it IS incorrect, via the evidence.

That is why the original defintion is the *actual meaningful* definition. That is why religion is dangerous, because it's false information in general. Bad information is...bad.

Science, is based on REASON. Not faith. Reason is the opposite of faith.
Reason - requires evidence/observation
Faith - does not require evidence/observation.

So no, science relies on evidence (as others point out), faith- religion, does not.

And No, no, no. Individuals DO NOT DECIDE if the sun is real. It is not a CHOICE. You are not FREE to choose about it. Either it is, or it is not. And that applies to ALL of reality. The sun existing is not known through spiritual awakening or communion with gods and godesses. It's known because we open our eyes and look out the window, and are honest about what we see.

-Mach

 

[Apostle13]

No.

Theories are based on evidence, not faith.

And for this matter faith is based on evidence not theory... But like I said, It depends on who is doing the math.

 

[GarzaUK]

The Bible defines Faith as; “The evidence of things hoped for but not yet seen.”

How many different phrases can a person say for "I don't have any prove".

Much of Science is itself based on theory, thus faith, can it then be said science is a religion also..?

WRONG, sir. WRONG.

Clearly your knowledge in the scientific method is lacking somewhat. :doh

 

[GarzaUK]

And for this matter faith is based on evidence not theory... But like I said, It depends on who is doing the math.

So the Holocost in WW2 may or may not have happened, it depends on who is doing the history?? :roll:

 

[scourge99]

You are correct in a since. However the context of his statement is not incorrect. His justification is that a Theory is based on a belief that something works a specific way or something happened in a specific way that has not been measured or observed is correct.

Some theory is simply ideas until someone proves they are correct with an experiment. However what truly defines a religion is the ability to devise an experiment or logical deduction based on observable evidence.

This is where science and religion part. Religion makes no attempts to do so. Where Science makes every attempt to disprove what it knows and to insure the core fact is true.

The core problem is that the books were written in an age where information was very difficult to confirm. There is very little artificial evidence to prove a lot of the assumptions or even to confirm that it occurred.

How do you prove a higher power parted the sea for Moses is a perfect example? It’s not as if we can ask God to update his 10 commandments either or to confirm whether the evens happened. In the modern world creationism is how religious groups try to use logic and science to prove their religion is not wrong. Unfortunately most of the scientific knowledge used in there deductions are out of date and has been proven to be wrong or slightly different. Also the use of statistical probability is used to confuse the audience to simply number games.

this is the problem with religion. It's an out of date governing system.

There is no objective way to prove or disprove religion. Our constitution recognizes this uncertainity and therefore protects religion while simultanously limiting its influence on government. No religion can be supported by government. No religion can be persecuted by the government.

Our governments main purpose isn't to educate or enlighten its citizens. Its purpose is to protect its citizens.

 

[Apostle13]

How many different phrases can a person say for "I don't have any prove".



WRONG, sir. WRONG.

Clearly your knowledge in the scientific method is lacking somewhat. :doh

Clearly you are not clearly clear on context.

 

[Apostle13]

So the Holocost in WW2 may or may not have happened, it depends on who is doing the history?? :roll:

Whatever...

 

[GarzaUK]

Clearly you are not clearly clear on context.

Fine. I will go through the scientific method and show you that scientific theory is not like the literal theory, it is proven with evidence. Or better yet watch this video.

YouTube - 10 - The Scientific Method Made Easy

Whatever...

No, its not whatever. Its a valid point.

Some historians think that the holocost never happened, does that mean it didn't happen? Yes it did because of evidence.
Some religious people think evolution never happened, does that mean it didn't happen? Yes it did because of evidence.
Some athesist think that god doesn't exist, does that means he doesn't exist. Evidence?

If there is a evidence for a god apostle please show us.

Religion and science are incomparable.

 

[Tsunamie]

No.

Theories are based on evidence, not faith.

Thoeries with in science are developed from previous facts based on new assumptions. Theories are different from Faith because, faith is absolute. However the fact that theories are unproven means we have faith that they are correct. A vicious cycle I know. But none the less theories are unproven and the idea's can be correct or incorrect. We simply play the numbers game in real science to see what is more likely. However this is the problem with science, if we do not explore every possibility then it's not science, as proving it is not is just as important as proving it is.

It is proven for me as and individual thru the factoring of spirituality... It is unproven to you by the lack thereof, or so I would assume.

Spirituality is an emotion. If I inject you with several chemicals I can make you feel different emotions. If I contaminated your food without you knowing and you felt good or a similar state of like being high, would this mean you're in a state of spiritual enlightenment. Or would it just mean I got you high through contaminating your food source without your consent?

And for this matter faith is based on evidence not theory... But like I said, It depends on who is doing the math.

I have already given you the dictionary definition of faith. If you disagree with this term. Please specify a term you feel describes your position.

Whatever...

When I meet stubborn people that are UN willing to hear the opinion of others. However push his beliefs on to others. They try to strung others points of without examining them. Are you such a person?

No, it's not whatever. It's a valid point.

Some historians think that the holocost never happened, does that mean it didn't happen? Yes it did because of evidence.
Some religious people think evolution never happened, does that mean it didn't happen? Yes it did because of evidence.
Some athesist think that god doesn't exist, does that means he doesn't exist. Evidence?

If there is a evidence for a god apostle please show us.

Religion and science are incomparable.

I understand your point. I also believe he believes evidence is the bible itself as well as several artefacts. Most of which are mute in actually proving that it actually happened. However, as the saying goes all lies start with a truth. A game of Chinese whispers concerning biblical proportions.

There is no objective way to prove or disprove religion. Our constitution recognizes this uncertainity and therefore protects religion while simultaneously limiting its influence on government. No religion can be supported by government. No religion can be persecuted by the government.

Our government's main purpose isn't to educate or enlighten its citizens. Its purpose is to protect its citizens.

Now you I understand. Thank you very much for you information. Can I therefore understand how religion is allowed to seep into politics. As I believe in a democratic system. The voter's opinion is taken into account. If an education system that propagates a general ignorance and someone exploits that ignorance. Is it not something the internal government should address?

For example - In the UK, people from London or travel around the UK a lot of well educated. This is because the social aspect required people in these areas to earn over a specific amount to even survive which required a high education. In the poorest area's of the UK, organizations like the BNP (this is the British version of the KKK white supremise groups) have most influence. The government there fore started up integration programmes for immigrants as well as targeted these area's local schooling with an area specified curriculum to help people understand the math and facts of immigration to prevent such groups from having such power into starting violence.

There have been success with these programs but due to the current economical climate it has become very difficult in these areas.

Another example is that media plays a very huge part in drumming our religion within goverment. when Brown announced on americian TV God bless you. He was heavily critized in the UK for this. Everyone new he was playing to everyones weak spot in America.

 

[MrFungus420]

It is proven for me as an individual thru the factoring of spirituality... It is unproven to you by the lack thereof, or so I would assume.

If it is proven, then prove it.

 

[MrFungus420]

And for this matter faith is based on evidence not theory... But like I said, It depends on who is doing the math.

Fine, show us the evidence.

 

[scourge99]

Now you I understand. Thank you very much for you information. Can I therefore understand how religion is allowed to seep into politics. As I believe in a democratic system. The voter's opinion is taken into account. If an education system that propagates a general ignorance and someone exploits that ignorance. Is it not something the internal government should address?

The exploitation has limits though. You can try to convince people of whatever you want as long as you stay within the laws and the constitution.

Its expected that our politicians will bring their religious ideals with them. Its impossible to expect them to disown their religion because in most cases its where their morality and ideals are derived from. However, its required that their legislation not violate the constitution. We have judges who can proclaim legislation void if a law is found to be in violation of the constitution.

For example - In the UK, people from London or travel around the UK a lot of well educated. This is because the social aspect required people in these areas to earn over a specific amount to even survive which required a high education. In the poorest area's of the UK, organizations like the BNP (this is the British version of the KKK white supremise groups) have most influence. The government there fore started up integration programmes for immigrants as well as targeted these area's local schooling with an area specified curriculum to help people understand the math and facts of immigration to prevent such groups from having such power into starting violence.

There have been success with these programs but due to the current economical climate it has become very difficult in these areas.

Another example is that media plays a very huge part in drumming our religion within goverment. when Brown announced on americian TV God bless you. He was heavily critized in the UK for this. Everyone new he was playing to everyones weak spot in America.

Like I said before, the concern is on safety and freedom (the constitution) and not on education. People in America are allowed to be hateful deuche bags all they want as long as they obey the laws.

Poorly educated people who can't think is definitely a problem but we value freedom. Which includes freedom to be an idiot as long as you obey the law.

 

[Tsunamie]

scourge99 -
This is contradictory in nature as a policy. Internal safety of its citizens is decreased with general ignorance. Crime and other negative effects also accompany the decrease in educated individuals. Engineer’s, doctors and architects are generally not the ones in gangs who are running around in the middle of the night. The ones that have not received a full education (age 3-21) that is more violent.
America has the highest gun related crime in the western world (or 1st world countries). This statistic is not even in moderation, the second on the chart for gun crime is 10 times less.
Gun Facts
There is another site that I can no longer find. There statistics were more up to date with local figures from most western nations from 2005. They also took into account nation’s population of the year and gave figures based on the number of people that have dies from gun based crime and the general population of the nation itself.
There is one single point I would like to make – a good education system will have profound implications for the nation that implements it. America’s education system (graduate system during the 50-80) drove its development. Please remember that education does not just come from schooling but also graduate programs in businesses and internships. So my statement is simply to spend more money on school which is the only thing the governments of every nation keep doing. It does not have such a large effect as graduate schemes.
This point is expanded to mention that Education comes from everything such as family, schooling and internal training programs in corporations such as internships and graduate schemes.
There is a good reason why the majority of rich children become intellectuals. They have access to all 3 stages of education. The poor must work harder to get the same type of benefits. The only reason most education systems and internship programs have been dropped, is because free market capitalism is based on competitiveness. It is a short term cost gain verses long term survival. Letting faith into schools worsens the logical deductions required in basic jobs. Common sense is derived from breaking down each thing you need to do at a very basic level. Where Faith instigates not examining things hourly and simply one statement is place in its stead (It’s god’s will). What does that even mean?
A precursor to this is this very forum. The people that join generally want to educate themselves and are willing to discuss the issue. The majority of posters seem to agree that faith should not be in schools, but the news and government policies tell us the majority of American citizens believe faith should be taught. I am also disappointed that Faith based arguments I have tried to enter end in dead lock with the iteration of a point they believe to be sacred or un resolvable. Worse is when they completely ignore or try to side step the issue. I am more concerned that the general population of America do this, as my mother has come to do so ever since she started to live there with her new husband for the last 5 years.
This leads me to believe that it is a social issue since she was not educated in American education system.