Facts that aren't facts everyone asserts as truisms

Jon Slice said:

One of the best analogies I've read up to this point.

Another point from the Law Enforcement side which gives credence to GZ is that he submitted to two VSA (voice Stress Analysis) polygraphs and was determined to be truthful on both. I know these are not admissible as evidence in a court of law be we (Law Enforcement) still use them. Every cop in Florida is submitted to either a VSA (Mostly Sheriffs Office Deputies) or a standard polygraph during their hiring process. If you think "People fool those all the time" then you know absolutely nothing about them and even if he fooled one, fooling twice under two separate examiners is very, very unlikely. He also did this voluntarily w/o an attorney.

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VSA is not reliable and candidly I put little stock in polygraphs. I am a regulatory officer (badge/gun etc basically equal to a trooper) and I took neither test - though maybe they claimed they did a VSA. I was told they didn't see much reason to give me a polygraph test since I basically admitted to having committed nearly every crime category they asked about in the past - a few exceptions but those had previously been investigated formally by another agency.

What you raise - as a persuasive point - probably is a very good one. However, we both know failing or passing a truth-tests does not establish a truism - and of course is zero trial evidence.

joko104 said:

Again, Answered above.

BUT even if the operator/dispatcher was a sworn police officer, GZ could completely ignore what that officer said on the phone - legally.

EVEN IF NOT, then the charge against GZ would be "failure to comply with a police officer's command" - which is a minor misdemeanor.

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Sure he could... still makes him an idiot. Still flies in the face of his alleged training. Still makes him a danger. Still puts him at as much risk as the "perp" of being shot by police arriving on the scene. Still complicates the situation decreasing the effectiveness of responding officers. If police had arrived before the shooting, who do you think they would have targeted? The idiot with the gun who should have stayed with his vehicle as he was TRAINED and TOLD.

"WE DON'T NEED YOU TO DO THAT" wan't just something to fill an awkward silence... it was procedure.

By the way... a misdemeanor is a misdemeanor... there is no minor or severe...

Occam's Razor said:

Sorry your county is so lame. That is not the case where I live... But I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong, are you?

How about you address the rest of the post. It's not only common knowledge, not only common sense, but ALL NW training manuals tell you not to get involved. Report, that's it. Period. Any cop will tell you not to get involved. REPORT.

Freakin' amateur spin artists. It cracks me up when people show such obvious bias yet try to veil it as otherwise.

If you can find me one cop, or ONE AGENT of the police that would advise anything other than DON'T GET INVOLVED, I'll completely retract my previous statement.

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I'm not wrong so what is there to admit? Our dispatchers are trained to gather as much intel as possible without endangering the caller. CD.(Central Dispatch) asked GZ which way TM was headed, where he was going etc. and GZ felt compelled to help CD as much as he could. While all this was happening CD thought "Oh crap he may be following to gather intel for me and get too close and get harmed" so CD ask "Are you following him?" to which GZ replied "Yes" to which CD responded "We don't need you to do that." meaning we don't want you to place yourself at risk to get us the intel. CD made the statement for GZ's safety not TM's. I've been Sworn Law Enforcement in The State of Florida for 17 years and have communicated with CD 1000's of times. I know what I'm talking about.

I am not spinning this to fit my own agenda. Ask any cop in Florida and they will explain the same things.

You are welcome to come back at me w/ something else, I'm not quite full from eating the lunches of others yet.

joko104 said:

VSA is not reliable and candidly I put little stock in polygraphs. I am a regulatory officer (badge/gun etc basically equal to a trooper) and I took neither test - though maybe they claimed they did a VSA. I was told they didn't see much reason to give me a polygraph test since I basically admitted to having committed nearly every crime category they asked about in the past - a few exceptions but those had previously been investigated formally by another agency.

What you raise - as a persuasive point - probably is a very good one. However, we both know failing or passing a truth-tests does not establish a truism - and of course is zero trial evidence.

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Then you know it's the Reader/Questioner and not the machine and to pass as truthful by two separate Readers/Questioners is extremely unlikely.

Occam's Razor said:

Sure he "WE DON'T NEED YOU TO DO THAT" wan't just something to fill an awkward silence... it was procedure.

By ...

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Umpteenth time. He didn't .( follow him after that)

Moot said:

So you think Trayvon didn't have the right to defend himself?

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Of course he did. If he was ever thrreatened . There is no ( credible) evidence that he was .

Interesting how the GZ accusers insist he should have not confronted MArtin( which he didn't----from the evidence) and let the cops handle it, but don't apply the same standard to Trayvon Artin. He had a phone- why didn't he call the cops to report a 'creepy ass cracker' gay rapist following hiim?

Occam's Razor said:

Sorry your county is so lame. That is not the case where I live... But I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong, are you?

How about you address the rest of the post. It's not only common knowledge, not only common sense, but ALL NW training manuals tell you not to get involved. Report, that's it. Period. Any cop will tell you not to get involved. REPORT.

Freakin' amateur spin artists. It cracks me up when people show such obvious bias yet try to veil it as otherwise.

If you can find me one cop, or ONE AGENT of the police that would advise anything other than DON'T GET INVOLVED, I'll completely retract my previous statement.

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I'm a supervisor in law enforcement. I often complain on the forum how most people won't involve and are apathetic towards others.

Hey, if everyone in your country don't give a damn about other people, are 100% ego centric, narcisstic and cowards don't think everyone everywhere is. There are still some people that are their brother's (and sister's) keeper and will look out for others - even if their is personal risk involved.

Neighborhood Watch has no legal authority whatsoever of any kind and is just a private business that takes in money. Maybe they are the law-of-the-land in your country. They are just one of 10,000 "associations" each with it's own ideology, agenda, purpose and reasons they give to send them money.

There are other AMERICAN cops and retired cops on this forum also that do NOT have the view that nobody should do anything for anyone else, be totally non-involved and apathetic and leave everything up to the cops. "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away."

So... guess you have to retract another false statement, huh?

Jon Slice said:

Then you know it's the Reader/Questioner and not the machine and to pass as truthful by two separate Readers/Questioners is extremely unlikely.

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Oh I dunno. I only took one polygraph long ago and that more of curiousity than a requirement. It started by the operator/machine being unable to detect that I gave a false name the I used back then. A polygraph and VSA requires a person 1. believe the machine works and 2. have a fear of giving a false response and/or a sense that lying is wrong, plus that the person's metabolism is easily altered with stress. For those reasons, it works for most people. But not for me.

I have read that the only indefeatable truth-tester is via a CatScan. The brain pulls memory from one area and reasoning from another. Truth is mostly pulled from memory and lies mostly pulled from reasoning. In that, then, is the ethical question of if the 100% accurate polygraph tests was devised should it be used? Should the right against self incrimination at least extend to our thoughts and memories? Or not?

GZ was not given a physical polygraph test (hooked up to the machine), so I don't put that much stock in he passed VSA tests. I'd give it more credence if he had been.

Occam's Razor said:

Sure he could... still makes him an idiot. Still flies in the face of his alleged training. Still makes him a danger. Still puts him at as much risk as the "perp" of being shot by police arriving on the scene. Still complicates the situation decreasing the effectiveness of responding officers. If police had arrived before the shooting, who do you think they would have targeted? The idiot with the gun who should have stayed with his vehicle as he was TRAINED and TOLD.

"WE DON'T NEED YOU TO DO THAT" wan't just something to fill an awkward silence... it was procedure.

By the way... a misdemeanor is a misdemeanor... there is no minor or severe...

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It is clear your goal is to derail the topic, which is what are and are not known truisms.

Actually, there are minor and severe misdemeanors. A traffic ticket is a misdemeanor with a few dollars fine. An assault misdemeanor can put a person in jail for a year.

Is there ANYTHING you don't get absolutely exactly wrong?

joko104 said:

I'm a supervisor in law enforcement. I often complain on the forum how most people won't involve and are apathetic towards others.

Hey, if everyone in your country don't give a damn about other people, are 100% ego centric, narcisstic and cowards don't think everyone everywhere is. There are still some people that are their brother's (and sister's) keeper and will look out for others - even if their is personal risk involved.

Neighborhood Watch has no legal authority whatsoever of any kind and is just a private business that takes in money. Maybe they are the law-of-the-land in your country. They are just one of 10,000 "associations" each with it's own ideology, agenda, purpose and reasons they give to send them money.

There are other AMERICAN cops and retired cops on this forum also that do NOT have the view that nobody should do anything for anyone else, be totally non-involved and apathetic and leave everything up to the cops. "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away."

So... guess you have to retract another false statement, huh?

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To continue From an LEO perspective; Cops are janitors. Except for special task force operations and Fed. crossovers (Like me) the average beat cop is just there to clean up the mess 85% of the time. We (Most LEO's) love the regular Joe law abiding citizen who wants to help because they are a HUGE part of crime "Prevention". They are the first eyes on scene. George is one of those people. Too bad if you don't like what happened. Us cops (For the most part) still appreciate him.
I am, personally, one of the guys wearing the black mask when you enter the house to sex w/ a 12 yo kid and throw your a** to the ground and detain you. There are 1000's of cases in this country where NW and people just like GZ have helped us catch "Kiddy Cuddlers" because they where nosy and followed them and witnessed them trying to break into a kids room. A lot of you people just hate GZ because you think he should have minded his own business but I guarantee you if TM had attempted to kidnap a 6 yo child while GZ was watching him and GZ had been responsible for preventing it you would all be saying "We need more people like him."