Facts that aren't facts everyone asserts as truisms

joko104 · Jul 24, 2013

WorldWatcher said:
Between 6:53 and 7:53 PM weather shows 0.03in of precipitation on the evening of February 26, 2012.

Weather History for Sanford, FL | Weather Underground

>>>>

I'm somewhat in that neck of the woods. Rain in this area of Florida can be very patchy. If you and I are standing across the street from each other, you might get drenched and I only sprinkled on. That rain measure would be at the airport or whatever is the measuring location. By the phone call I . would speculate it was not pouring hard, but this really isn't known for certain. Again, we can speculate all day and night of what TM was doing - but he was not WALKING home. Home very likely was his ultimate destination of course, but then it is basically for everyone - so "going home" would apply to anyone doing anything if used that way.

joko104 · Jul 24, 2013

I'm in law enforcement. "You don't need to keep posting on Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman topics." Now, if you continue to post have you defied a direct command of a law enforcement officer in any liability or culpability sense? Of course not. A police operator saying "we don't need you to do that" isn't a command, isn't from someone in authority to give a command, and he could ignore it regardless. The statement "the police told Zimmerman not to follow Martin" is not a truism, although apparently GZ interpreted what the operator as giving such instruction.

joko104 · Jul 24, 2013

I'm trying to separate subjection and speculative opinions based upon what is known from what is asserted as absolutely indisputable facts.

Stace · Jul 24, 2013

joko104 said:
I'm somewhat in that neck of the woods. Rain in this area of Florida can be very patchy. If you and I are standing across the street from each other, you might get drenched and I only sprinkled on. That rain measure would be at the airport or whatever is the measuring location.

I can second this. I lived in Deltona (which is just outside of Sanford) for several years, and my grandparents lived in Sanford itself. It can be pouring so hard you can hardly see anything in front of you one second, and the sun can be shining with no clouds in sight the next. It's crazy.

Moot · Jul 24, 2013

CRUE CAB said:
Then Trayvon commited the crime of attempted theft of a firearm and assault.

So you think Trayvon didn't have the right to defend himself?

Strucker · Jul 24, 2013

joko104 said:
We do NOT know that TM threw the first "punch" or made the first aggressive physical contact. The TRUISM is that there is no ****ing way we can know who turned it into a physical conflict - ie who started the fight. And we can't know means not guilty.

Just so. Supporters of "both sides" have made an awful lot of assumptions, bizarrely presenting them as "facts."

CRUE CAB · Jul 24, 2013

Moot said:
So you think Trayvon didn't have the right to defend himself?

Never said that, but what was he defending himself from?
Someone watching him or looking at him? Gee, I didnt know eyes could be so deadly.

Moot · Jul 24, 2013

CRUE CAB said:
Never said that, but what was he defending himself from?
Someone watching him or looking at him? Gee, I didnt know eyes could be so deadly.

Yes, you did. You said that if Trayvon tried to defend himself by taking Zimmermans gun away he should be charged with theft and assault.

Jon Slice · Jul 24, 2013

Moot said:
Yes, you did. You said that if Trayvon tried to defend himself by taking Zimmermans gun away he should be charged with theft and assault.

There's the Liberal word twisting. That's not what was stated. "IF" Trayvon was circling George and George felt intimidated then maybe he reached for his gun. (I'm typing this slow so you may be able to comprehend it better).

By your inane logic Trayvon could walk up and threaten to kill George, say "Your a dead M.F.er now" or whatever and place George in fear of death or great bodily harm and then when GZ is so scared he shows, draws, or whatever's his gun then Trayvon can try and take it and claim self defense because he was in fear of someone else' defense against him placing them in fear.

That's what we call brain-dead logic.

Moot · Jul 24, 2013

Jon Slice said:
There's the Liberal word twisting. That's not what was stated. "IF" Trayvon was circling George and George felt intimidated then maybe he reached for his gun. (I'm typing this slow so you may be able to comprehend it better).

By your inane logic Trayvon could walk up and threaten to kill George, say "Your a dead M.F.er now" or whatever and place George in fear of death or great bodily harm and then when GZ is so scared he shows, draws, or whatever's his gun then Trayvon can try and take it and claim self defense because he was in fear of someone else' defense against him placing them in fear.

That's what we call brain-dead logic.

Yeah, I'd call that brain dead logic, too. Thank goodness it's yours and not mine.

opendebate · Jul 24, 2013

sharon said:
Concerning 1 thru 8 you should check your facts with the evidence dumps.

Ditto

joko104 · Jul 24, 2013

opendebate said:
Ditto

I understand, the facts are whatever you wish them to be to you. Meaning facts are irrelevant. More common than not in these "debates."

BUT, since you and Sharon both hold to the position that GZ was a racist, this is his history:

- The FBI found no evidence that Zimmerman was racist. (McClatchy)
- Zimmerman is a Hispanic and a registered Democrat. (CNN)
- Zimmerman voted for Obama. (Daily Caller)
- Zimmerman has black roots through an Afro-Peruvian great-grandfather. (Reuters)
- Zimmerman has many black family members and friends (CNN)
- Zimmerman and a black friend opened up an insurance office in Florida. (Reuters)
- Zimmerman mentored two black children. (CNN)
- Zimmerman helped in a fund raiser for a black church. (CNN)
- Zimmerman launched a campaign to help a homeless black man who was beaten up by a white kid. (Reuters)
- Zimmerman took a black girl to the prom. (CNN)
- Zimmerman was the only one to welcome a black neighbor to the community. (CNN)
- Zimmerman's black neighbor said she would trust George with her life. (CNN)

NOW, unless either of you can show you have done more for, with and towards Latinos, I get to declare the motive for all your messages is that you are racist against Latinos.

It is important to remember that there is a long history of racial tension between African-Americans and Latinos, and whites and Latinos. At it core, the hatred against Zimmerman is he is Latino. When it was believed he was white, he was determined to have been justified. As soon as became known he was Latino, African-American and whites started calling for his prosecution and condemning him not just legally, but every insult they can find.

I do think the underlying motive of rage against GZ is racially motivated.

So... using the (lack) of reasoning that GZ was motived by racism merely because TM is black, prove your messages are not because you are racist against Latino and condemn GZ merely because he is Latino...

Tell me about the Latino business partner you had, the Latino you went to prom with, have Latino relatives, raised money for a Latino church, circulated a petition on behalf of a Latino beat up by someone of your race, and mentored Latino children.
UNLESS YOU HAVE DONE EVEN FAR MORE THAN ZIMMERMAN DID, OBVIOUSLY you both are motivated by racism against Zimmerman by YOUR basis to claim GZ racially profiled TM on racist motivations.

:waiting:

Jon Slice · Jul 24, 2013

Moot said:
Yeah, I'd call that brain dead logic, too. Thank goodness it's yours and not mine.

Yeah, denial works too.

opendebate · Jul 24, 2013

Stace said:
The dispatcher told George that they didn't need him to follow Martin. George simply said "okay".

What is the relevance of that distinction?

opendebate · Jul 24, 2013

joko104 said:
I understand, the facts are whatever you wish them to be to you. Meaning facts are irrelevant. More common than not in these "debates."

BUT, since you and Sharon both hold to the position that GZ was a racist, this is his history:

- The FBI found no evidence that Zimmerman was racist. (McClatchy)
- Zimmerman is a Hispanic and a registered Democrat. (CNN)
- Zimmerman voted for Obama. (Daily Caller)
- Zimmerman has black roots through an Afro-Peruvian great-grandfather. (Reuters)
- Zimmerman has many black family members and friends (CNN)
- Zimmerman and a black friend opened up an insurance office in Florida. (Reuters)
- Zimmerman mentored two black children. (CNN)
- Zimmerman helped in a fund raiser for a black church. (CNN)
- Zimmerman launched a campaign to help a homeless black man who was beaten up by a white kid. (Reuters)
- Zimmerman took a black girl to the prom. (CNN)
- Zimmerman was the only one to welcome a black neighbor to the community. (CNN)
- Zimmerman's black neighbor said she would trust George with her life. (CNN)

NOW, unless either of you can show you have done more for, with and towards Latinos, I get to declare the motive for all your messages is that you are racist against Latinos.

It is important to remember that there is a long history of racial tension between African-Americans and Latinos, and whites and Latinos. At it core, the hatred against Zimmerman is he is Latino. When it was believed he was white, he was determined to have been justified. As soon as became known he was Latino, African-American and whites started calling for his prosecution and condemning him not just legally, but every insult they can find.

I do think the underlying motive of rage against GZ is racially motivated.

So... using the (lack) of reasoning that GZ was motived by racism merely because TM is black, prove your messages are not because you are racist against Latino and condemn GZ merely because he is Latino...

Tell me about the Latino business partner you had, the Latino you went to prom with, have Latino relatives, raised money for a Latino church, circulated a petition on behalf of a Latino beat up by someone of your race, and mentored Latino children.
UNLESS YOU HAVE DONE EVEN FAR MORE THAN ZIMMERMAN DID, OBVIOUSLY you both are motivated by racism against Zimmerman by YOUR basis to claim GZ racially profiled TM on racist motivations.

:waiting:

I never said that I thought GZ was a racist. I don't know the man and it would be my guess that the information made public about him as a result of the trial (just like to info made public about TM) has been twisted to suit someone's agenda.

Stace · Jul 24, 2013

opendebate said:
What is the relevance of that distinction?

The relevance is that simply saying "okay" is NOT an agreement to stop following. It's merely an acknowledgement of what the dispatcher said.

WorldWatcher · Jul 24, 2013

>

The problem with this case is that it exists as a "Black Box" scenario or as we used to teach systems to Navy Pilots as FM (or ****ing Magic). That means you have a piece of electronics with multiple inputs, what happens inside the box is irrelevant as long as you know what the outcome will be. I say this is similar because the situation existed where only on person truly knows what happened that night from the point where he exited the vehicle to the time when the first witnesses arrived on scene. GZ could have been telling the truth, on the other hand he could have been spinning a yarn to minimize how others could perceive his responsibility. It could be that in the "Black Box" time, that Zimmerman approached Martin (as RJ communicated that TM said he did) and attempted to detain TM. If GZ grabbed TM and attempted to unlawfully detain him, then GZ committed a forcible felony.

Now before someone gets their panties in a twist, I'm not saying that did happen, I'm saying that history is written by the victors and if TM had lived you can bet that his version of events would differ significantly from the version GZ gets to tell. That's why it's a Black Box scenario, two people enter - one person leaves, so the victor get's to tell their story un-rebutted by the other.

At the end of the day the jury made the right decision under the law. The prosecution did a piss-poor job of presenting a case and basically handed a win to the prosecution.

>>>>

Jon Slice · Jul 24, 2013

WorldWatcher said:
>

The problem with this case is that it exists as a "Black Box" scenario or as we used to teach systems to Navy Pilots as FM (or ****ing Magic). That means you have a piece of electronics with multiple inputs, what happens inside the box is irrelevant as long as you know what the outcome will be. I say this is similar because the situation existed where only on person truly knows what happened that night from the point where he exited the vehicle to the time when the first witnesses arrived on scene. GZ could have been telling the truth, on the other hand he could have been spinning a yarn to minimize how others could perceive his responsibility. It could be that in the "Black Box" time, that Zimmerman approached Martin (as RJ communicated that TM said he did) and attempted to detain TM. If GZ grabbed TM and attempted to unlawfully detain him, then GZ committed a forcible felony.

Now before someone gets their panties in a twist, I'm not saying that did happen, I'm saying that history is written by the victors and if TM had lived you can bet that his version of events would differ significantly from the version GZ gets to tell. That's why it's a Black Box scenario, two people enter - one person leaves, so the victor get's to tell their story un-rebutted by the other.

At the end of the day the jury made the right decision under the law. The prosecution did a piss-poor job of presenting a case and basically handed a win to the prosecution.

>>>>

One of the best analogies I've read up to this point.

Another point from the Law Enforcement side which gives credence to GZ is that he submitted to two VSA (voice Stress Analysis) polygraphs and was determined to be truthful on both. I know these are not admissible as evidence in a court of law be we (Law Enforcement) still use them. Every cop in Florida is submitted to either a VSA (Mostly Sheriffs Office Deputies) or a standard polygraph during their hiring process. If you think "People fool those all the time" then you know absolutely nothing about them and even if he fooled one, fooling twice under two separate examiners is very, very unlikely. He also did this voluntarily w/o an attorney.

Occam's Razor · Jul 24, 2013

joko104 said:
8. GZ was told not to follow TM. No, never happened. A telephone receptionist for the police said GZ didn't need to follow TM. So?

I don't have time to address all of this, but since you are so keen on stating facts without bias... I'll take this one...

A police dispatcher is NOT a receptionist. They are trained officers. Anyone that watches ANY amount of television, much less received training as a NW volunteer KNOWS the police NEVER want civilians to get involved... PERIOD. The exact quote was "WE DON'T NEED YOU TO DO THAT". In other words, stand down, we'll handle it from here. If you need that spelled out, you have no business being on the NW.

I don't believe GZ is a villain... I do believe he is an idiot.

Jon Slice · Jul 24, 2013

Occam's Razor said:
I don't have time to address all of this, but since you are so keen on stating facts without bias... I'll take this one...

A police dispatcher is NOT a receptionist. They are trained officers. Anyone that watches ANY amount of television, much less received training as a NW volunteer KNOWS the police NEVER want civilians to get involved... PERIOD. The exact quote was "WE DON'T NEED YOU TO DO THAT". In other words, stand down, we'll handle it from here. If you need that spelled out, you have no business being on the NW.

I don't believe GZ is a villain... I do believe he is an idiot.

You are 100% Wrong. Our dispatchers are "NOT" sworn Law Enforcement Officers. They are Civilians just the same as George Zimmerman. Our dispatchers have "NO" authority to give orders to anyone. They can advise and that's it. They take NEN and 911 calls, gather the intel and pass it along to Sworn L.E.O.'s via the radio either in code or plain-talk (Depends on the department) and the officers take it from there. In GZ's case the dispatcher was central dispatch through Seminole County because Sanford P.D.'s dispatch passes over around 5:30. Our dispatchers also take all the calls for Fire/Rescue, EMT's and all other first responders.

They are hiring in Central Fl. Looking for a job? Oh, never mind, you have to be able to keep your facts straight.

http://www.cityoforlando.net/police/support_services/communications.htm

While reading the link pay close attention to the part that says "The Communications Center has 94 civilian employees consisting of Emergency Communications Specialists, Supervisors, Technical Support and Managers."

Again, here we are with someone just spouting crap they know nothing about in an attempt to make some kind of flawed point.

joko104 · Jul 24, 2013

WorldWatcher said:
>

The problem with this case is that it exists as a "Black Box" scenario or as we used to teach systems to Navy Pilots as FM (or ****ing Magic). That means you have a piece of electronics with multiple inputs, what happens inside the box is irrelevant as long as you know what the outcome will be. I say this is similar because the situation existed where only on person truly knows what happened that night from the point where he exited the vehicle to the time when the first witnesses arrived on scene. GZ could have been telling the truth, on the other hand he could have been spinning a yarn to minimize how others could perceive his responsibility. It could be that in the "Black Box" time, that Zimmerman approached Martin (as RJ communicated that TM said he did) and attempted to detain TM. If GZ grabbed TM and attempted to unlawfully detain him, then GZ committed a forcible felony.

Now before someone gets their panties in a twist, I'm not saying that did happen, I'm saying that history is written by the victors and if TM had lived you can bet that his version of events would differ significantly from the version GZ gets to tell. That's why it's a Black Box scenario, two people enter - one person leaves, so the victor get's to tell their story un-rebutted by the other.

At the end of the day the jury made the right decision under the law. The prosecution did a piss-poor job of presenting a case and basically handed a win to the prosecution.

>>>>

And excellent example and analogy. We can't know what we can't know. And the victor does usually write the history. But that does not mean the victor was in the wrong either.

joko104 · Jul 24, 2013

Jon Slice said:
You are 100% Wrong. Our dispatchers are "NOT" sworn Law Enforcement Officers. They are Civilians just the same as George Zimmerman. Our dispatchers have "NO" authority to give orders to anyone. They can advise and that's it. They take NEN and 911 calls, gather the intel and pass it along to Sworn L.E.O.'s via the radio either in code or plain-talk (Depends on the department) and the officers take it from there. In GZ's case the dispatcher was central dispatch through Seminole County because Sanford P.D.'s dispatch passes over around 5:30. Our dispatchers also take all the calls for Fire/Rescue, EMT's and all other first responders.

They are hiring in Central Fl. Looking for a job? Oh, never mind, you have to be able to keep your facts straight.

City of Orlando, Florida Police Department - Communications

While reading the link pay close attention to the part that says "The Communications Center has 94 civilian employees consisting of Emergency Communications Specialists, Supervisors, Technical Support and Managers."

Again, here we are with someone just spouting crap they know nothing about in an attempt to make some kind of flawed point.

Very few police departments have sworn officers as dispatchers. For one, the liabilities could be very high if an actual police officer was telling people what to do and not do - upon a few words in a phone call by someone you don't know, can't see and aren't there.

Occam's Razor · Jul 24, 2013

Jon Slice said:
You are 100% Wrong. Our dispatchers are "NOT" sworn Law Enforcement Officers. They are Civilians just the same as George Zimmerman. Our dispatchers have "NO" authority to give orders to anyone. They can advise and that's it. They take NEN and 911 calls, gather the intel and pass it along to Sworn L.E.O.'s via the radio either in code or plain-talk (Depends on the department) and the officers take it from there. In GZ's case the dispatcher was central dispatch through Seminole County because Sanford P.D.'s dispatch passes over around 5:30. Our dispatchers also take all the calls for Fire/Rescue, EMT's and all other first responders.

Again, here we are with someone just spouting crap they know nothing about in an attempt to make some kind of flawed point.

Sorry your county is so lame. That is not the case where I live... But I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong, are you?

How about you address the rest of the post. It's not only common knowledge, not only common sense, but ALL NW training manuals tell you not to get involved. Report, that's it. Period. Any cop will tell you not to get involved. REPORT.

Freakin' amateur spin artists. It cracks me up when people show such obvious bias yet try to veil it as otherwise.

If you can find me one cop, or ONE AGENT of the police that would advise anything other than DON'T GET INVOLVED, I'll completely retract my previous statement.

joko104 · Jul 24, 2013

Occam's Razor said:
I don't have time to address all of this, but since you are so keen on stating facts without bias... I'll take this one...

A police dispatcher is NOT a receptionist. They are trained officers. Anyone that watches ANY amount of television, much less received training as a NW volunteer KNOWS the police NEVER want civilians to get involved... PERIOD. The exact quote was "WE DON'T NEED YOU TO DO THAT". In other words, stand down, we'll handle it from here. If you need that spelled out, you have no business being on the NW.

I don't believe GZ is a villain... I do believe he is an idiot.

Again, Answered above.

BUT even if the operator/dispatcher was a sworn police officer, GZ could completely ignore what that officer said on the phone - legally.

EVEN IF NOT, then the charge against GZ would be "failure to comply with a police officer's command" - which is a minor misdemeanor.

Un biased · Jul 24, 2013

Their is something I don't think seems right in all of this Trayvon seeing Zimmerman's gun why would he beat him up most people would run at the site of a weapon not Trayvon why is that .

A small question what time did this take place .

Facts that aren't facts everyone asserts as truisms

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