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Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)[W:70:96]

opendebate

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WARNING: Only for the open minded:

Throughout all of the discussions surrounding the Trayvon Martin case I found it disturbing how people, who often question our political and legal processes otherwise, shamed anyone who did the same about this case. If you dared to suggest that we consider the injustices in the processes or perhaps the laws supporting the not guilty verdict or Zimmerman's actions, you were labeled a race-baiter or being burdened with white guilt. There seemed to be no effort to understand the opposing point of view; how race could have been seen by many as having been a factor. This judgement and lack of objectivity permeated several other threads that sprang up around this trial and the issue of race and racism in our legal system and our culture. A civil discussion was never really accomplished here. I found this opinion piece and thought it did a much better job of articulating my point then I ever did; explaining why this discussion is important and why we should have it despite the difficulties. Here are some highlights.

Though recognizing that the rule of law was upheld in this case, we can and should be able to question whether justice was in fact served and, more important, what the jury's decision reflects about deeper societal issues implicated in this case. There's much for us to question and debate about stand-your-ground laws, guns, concealed weapons and particularly race.

We must confront race, admit racism still exists and discuss how it plays out in our society -- without being accused of playing the race card or engaging in racial demagoguery...


Facing Reality: Race Matters | Hector Villagra

This is not an invitation to go round and round about this case again. Instead this is an invitation to try again to discuss the larger issues surrounding this case and perhaps to better understand a point of view that you may disagree with.

And YES,....I know there is a typo in the title....don't know how to fix it. Deal with it.
 
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TiredOfLife

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Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

WARNING: Only for the open minded:

Throughout all of the discussions surrounding the Trayvon Martin case I found it disturbing how people, who often question our political and legal processes otherwise, shamed anyone who did the same about this case. If you dared to suggest that we consider the injustices in the processes or perhaps the laws supporting the not guilty verdict or Zimmerman's actions, you were labeled a race-baiter or being burdened with white guilt. There seemed to be no effort to understand the opposing point of view; how race could have been seen by many as having been a factor. This judgement and lack of objectivity permeated several other threads that sprang up around this trial and the issue of race and racism in our legal system and our culture. A civil discussion was never really accomplished here. I found this opinion piece and thought it did a much better job of articulating my point then I ever did; explaining why this discussion is important and why we should have it despite the difficulties. Here are some highlights.

Though recognizing that the rule of law was upheld in this case, we can and should be able to question whether justice was in fact served and, more important, what the jury's decision reflects about deeper societal issues implicated in this case. There's much for us to question and debate about stand-your-ground laws, guns, concealed weapons and particularly race.

We must confront race, admit racism still exists and discuss how it plays out in our society -- without being accused of playing the race card or engaging in racial demagoguery...


Facing Reality: Race Matters | Hector Villagra

This is not an invitation to go round and round about this case again. Instead this is an invitation to try again to discuss the larger issues surrounding this case and perhaps to better understand a point of view that you may disagree with.
Race matters, and racism in humans is normal. We are tribal even if we no longer live in tribal societies. You can't be colorblind to race, it's not possible, even babies are racist in that they react differently once they know that this person looks like me, or mom, and that one doesn't. (They also much prefer cute over normal or ugly.) Racism is built into us as a survival strategy. If you are walking down the street and there are two large groups ahead, one on each corner and one that is your race and one that isn't, you will very likely move, if you need to, to "your side" if you have to pass by.

The overt racism, I won't hire a guy if he's black, that you can legislate and work on over the generations, and we are seeing progress there. The I'm white so I understand and feel more comfortable around white people, that is hardwired and all you can do is know that it's there and try to adjust for it.

And of course the last big monster, the races are not the same. They have different experiences, suffer from different ailments, see events differently, and have been told for some time we are all really the same, which isn't true. There are differences and those need to be accounted for. Trying to pretend they don't cause more problems than it fixes.

The solution, if there is one, is to honestly deal with race and racism. Celebrate the differences where you find them, embrace the benefits of race diversity, and deal honestly with yourself instead of saying, well I'm not racist when in fact you are even if you think you treat everyone the same. We can't get parents to treat their own children the same so thinking you can do that with different people and races is simply untrue. Race is not the problem, refusing to deal with it honestly and openly is.
 

Josie

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Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

Interesting how the people who say they want "an honest conversation about race" usually begin with a dishonest premise. The very act of connecting race or racism to this case in particular is dishonest and soils the entire conversation.
 

opendebate

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Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

Interesting how the people who say they want "an honest conversation about race" usually begin with a dishonest premise. The very act of connecting race or racism to this case in particular is dishonest and soils the entire conversation.
I clearly stated my Warning for only open minded people. And you really do need to stop trolling me. Or is a little DP crush?
 

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Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

Here's the problem with using the Zimmerman case as an example to bolster racial causes: You can't get there from here.

There are enough examples out there of racism from all races toward any other race. This isn't one of them.

The people that want to discuss race, should drop this as an example, and find another one. You can't get there from here. No matter what HuffPo or anyone else tries to say.
 

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Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

I clearly stated my Warning for only open minded people. And you really do need to stop trolling me. Or is a little DP crush?
Why do you keep saying I'm "trolling" you when I'm simply responding to your posts? Your definition of "open mind" seems to be "don't disagree with me".

I'm disagreeing with your premise and attempting to open your mind to the deception the media has created surrounding this case. If you really want to have an honest conversation about race, let's have it. But tying it to the Zimmerman/Martin case immediately makes the conversation dishonest.
 

opendebate

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Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

Race matters, and racism in humans is normal. We are tribal even if we no longer live in tribal societies. You can't be colorblind to race, it's not possible, even babies are racist in that they react differently once they know that this person looks like me, or mom, and that one doesn't. (They also much prefer cute over normal or ugly.) Racism is built into us as a survival strategy. If you are walking down the street and there are two large groups ahead, one on each corner and one that is your race and one that isn't, you will very likely move, if you need to, to "your side" if you have to pass by.

The overt racism, I won't hire a guy if he's black, that you can legislate and work on over the generations, and we are seeing progress there. The I'm white so I understand and feel more comfortable around white people, that is hardwired and all you can do is know that it's there and try to adjust for it.

And of course the last big monster, the races are not the same. They have different experiences, suffer from different ailments, see events differently, and have been told for some time we are all really the same, which isn't true. There are differences and those need to be accounted for. Trying to pretend they don't cause more problems than it fixes.

The solution, if there is one, is to honestly deal with race and racism. Celebrate the differences where you find them, embrace the benefits of race diversity, and deal honestly with yourself instead of saying, well I'm not racist when in fact you are even if you think you treat everyone the same. We can't get parents to treat their own children the same so thinking you can do that with different people and races is simply untrue. Race is not the problem, refusing to deal with it honestly and openly is.
I hear you and I do not disagree with you, although I see it as rather primal residue. I doubt that we could ever do away with it; I am certain once we had it stamped in one place it would just start up again somewhere else. I do hope that we can agree to strive for better and overcome in ourselves the compulsion that allows it to overpower our reason and appreciation of equality and fairness.

I think it is a great point you make that acknowledging it in ourselves is the next step that must take place if we are to make any real progress. I believe that lack of acknowledgement interferes with the effectiveness of laws we do have in place meant to deter it; you don't concern yourself with following a law if you can not admit that you are breaking or bending it in the first place. Wouldn't it be grand if we could stop fearing people who are different than ourselves.
 

opendebate

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Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

Here's the problem with using the Zimmerman case as an example to bolster racial causes: You can't get there from here.

There are enough examples out there of racism from all races toward any other race. This isn't one of them.

The people that want to discuss race, should drop this as an example, and find another one. You can't get there from here. No matter what HuffPo or anyone else tries to say.
I hope you are mistaken. The article mentions the case and it's connection to the larger issues and because it is current I still see it as pretty acute lens on the issues. We'll see what happens.
 

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Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

I hope you are mistaken. The article mentions the case and it's connection to the larger issues and because it is current I still see it as pretty acute lens on the issues. We'll see what happens.
Oh, it IS connected to larger issues, but racism isn't one. Unless you're talking about calling white people "crackers".......
 

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Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

Oh, it IS connected to larger issues, but racism isn't one. Unless you're talking about calling white people "crackers".......
When you are at war you give the enemy a name he doesn't like. The list is endless. Don't be offended just they have one for you.
 

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Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

It is easier to assume that a person could conclude a black kid was up to no good than a white one. Some would call that racism, others would say it is supported by crime statistics. Could be either, some of both, or neither.
 
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TiredOfLife

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Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

It is easier to assume that a person could conclude a black kid was up to know good than a white one. Some would call that racism, others would say it is supported by crime statistics. Could be either, some of both, or neither.
Both in this case.
 

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Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

Both in this case.
There is also the added aspect that "justice" is a pretty subjective word in its application.
 

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Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

There is also the added aspect that "justice" is a pretty subjective word in its application.
Very, especially since we mostly extract vengeance. Justice is very hard to accomplish.
 

opendebate

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Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

It is easier to assume that a person could conclude a black kid was up to no good than a white one. Some would call that racism, others would say it is supported by crime statistics. Could be either, some of both, or neither.
I agree and I see that as a starting point; acknowledging that no one really knows and that judgement can fall on either side I believe opens the door to understanding the context for those who DO see the racist elements and making the conversation about what makes up that context; which is what is truly at the heart of the upheaval.
 

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Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

Here's the problem with using the Zimmerman case as an example to bolster racial causes: You can't get there from here.

There are enough examples out there of racism from all races toward any other race. This isn't one of them.

The people that want to discuss race, should drop this as an example, and find another one. You can't get there from here. No matter what HuffPo or anyone else tries to say.
My sentiments exactly. The only angle involving race or racism that we can examine based on the TM GZ case is the racial prejudice/possible racism exhibited by Al Sharpton the new black panthers and other like minded people/groups who agree with them and jumped to the same conclusions on Zimmerman based on the color of his skin. There was absolutely no recognizable racism or racial prejudiced coming from Zimmerman and if people didn't automatically and immediately judge the man based on the color of his skin then they would have come to the realization that he's actually Hispanic he has spent time mentoring black youths, he has black relatives, black friends who have vouched for him although that got drowned out by the mindless uproar of the close minded and extremely prejudiced masses. He gave a description to the operator on the night of the shooting of TM and didn't even mention race until the operator asked him what TM's race was.

I think there is a discussion that should be had here about racism, about why so many people saw a white man shooting a black teenager and automatically assumed that the shooting had anything at all to do with race just because of the color of GZ's skin.
 

opendebate

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Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

My sentiments exactly. The only angle involving race or racism that we can examine based on the TM GZ case is the racial prejudice/possible racism exhibited by Al Sharpton the new black panthers and other like minded people/groups who agree with them and jumped to the same conclusions on Zimmerman based on the color of his skin. There was absolutely no recognizable racism or racial prejudiced coming from Zimmerman and if people didn't automatically and immediately judge the man based on the color of his skin then they would have come to the realization that he's actually Hispanic he has spent time mentoring black youths, he has black relatives, black friends who have vouched for him although that got drowned out by the mindless uproar of the close minded and extremely prejudiced masses. He gave a description to the operator on the night of the shooting of TM and didn't even mention race until the operator asked him what TM's race was.

I think there is a discussion that should be had here about racism, about why so many people saw a white man shooting a black teenager and automatically assumed that the shooting had anything at all to do with race just because of the color of GZ's skin.
This posting is meant to help people who care about understanding opposing points of view an opportunity to do just that. It is not an effort to rehash old threads. If you truly want to understand how so many people (and the fact that it was so many is important here) read the article and give it a chance. You don't have to agree with it but if you are truly trying to understand it I think this article is helpful.
 

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Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

This posting is meant to help people who care about understanding opposing points of view an opportunity to do just that. It is not an effort to rehash old threads. If you truly want to understand how so many people (and the fact that it was so many is important here) read the article and give it a chance. You don't have to agree with it but if you are truly trying to understand it I think this article is helpful.
I already read the article. Like I said in my above reply, I do believe there is some room for discussion on race regarding discrimination and possibly even outright racism stemming from the aftermath of the incident leading to the death of Trayvon Martin. What do you believe can be done to stop the racial prejudice of those who would automatically label a "white person" a racist such as what was assumed to be ZM's race without any prior or current evidence that would lead any reasonable person to such a conclusion?
 

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Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

Here's the problem with using the Zimmerman case as an example to bolster racial causes: You can't get there from here.

There are enough examples out there of racism from all races toward any other race. This isn't one of them.

The people that want to discuss race, should drop this as an example, and find another one. You can't get there from here. No matter what HuffPo or anyone else tries to say.


When almost half of the population of this country believe that race "was" a factor, we are already there...
 

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Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

It is easier to assume that a person could conclude a black kid was up to no good than a white one. Some would call that racism, others would say it is supported by crime statistics. Could be either, some of both, or neither.
I wouldn't say such an assumption is supported by crime statistics at all. It's supported by mainstream ignorance of crime statistics (and statistics in general).

The key fact is that the vast majority of people aren't criminals (ignoring things like speeding, "borrowing" stationary from work and the like). Even if, in a given area, 1% of white kids are criminals and 10% of black kids are criminals, it'd still be logically wrong to assume a random black kid is a criminal - there is a 90% chance that you're wrong.

The problem is that people see the news and (misrepresented) statistics which doesn't give a balanced view of the world, both in what is presented and the manner in which it is. We're not assessing anything on a considered understanding of the statistical reality (in as much as statistics can represent reality at all). This impacts all sorts of things of course - race is just one of them.
 

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Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

This posting is meant to help people who care about understanding opposing points of view an opportunity to do just that.
Sense: you are not making any.

If you truly want to understand how so many people read the article and give it a chance.
wtf?

You don't have to agree with it but if you are truly trying to understand it I think this article is helpful.
Of course the article is helpful if you want to understand the article.
----

I offer this advice in all seriousness and with good intent: you may want to learn how to make yourself clearly understood before trying to help others understand your point of view. The only clear thought I can pick from your writing is that you have no clear thought yourself.

Truthfully, I think you have confused disagreement with misunderstanding. You can comprehensively understand another's opinion and still disagree completely with it. Just because someone disagrees with your point of view doesn't automatically make them misinformed and unconcerned.

One way of clarifying points of view and building understanding is to highlight the assumptions different people have regarding a conflict. The primary assumption this issue revolves around is the one that assumes GZ was racistly prejudicial in his actions toward TM. The individuals you seek "understanding" from are those who reject this assumption based on the circumstances and evidence of this particular case. This puts them on a completely different train of thought than you when approaching the issue. In order to build understanding, establish first a point of agreement. This will require your understanding others' perspectives up front (or at least to seek it).
 

opendebate

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Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

Sense: you are not making any.



wtf?



Of course the article is helpful if you want to understand the article.
----

I offer this advice in all seriousness and with good intent: you may want to learn how to make yourself clearly understood before trying to help others understand your point of view. The only clear thought I can pick from your writing is that you have no clear thought yourself.

Truthfully, I think you have confused disagreement with misunderstanding. You can comprehensively understand another's opinion and still disagree completely with it. Just because someone disagrees with your point of view doesn't automatically make them misinformed and unconcerned.

One way of clarifying points of view and building understanding is to highlight the assumptions different people have regarding a conflict. The primary assumption this issue revolves around is the one that assumes GZ was racistly prejudicial in his actions toward TM. The individuals you seek "understanding" from are those who reject this assumption based on the circumstances and evidence of this particular case. This puts them on a completely different train of thought than you when approaching the issue. In order to build understanding, establish first a point of agreement. This will require your understanding others' perspectives up front (or at least to seek it).
This isn't about me expressing my thoughts. This is about offering information to those who are curious. If someone wants to ask I am happy to provide. But honestly, your response seems more like someone who just wants to pick a fight as opposed to have an intelligent thoughtful exchange. If I misread you, then my apologies. If you would like to try some more civil discourse then please ... try again. If it offends you then don't read it and please do not participate in it. It was not posted to provoke people into a saliva spewing rage.
 
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CycloneWanderer

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Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

This isn't about me expressing my thoughts. This is about offering information to those who are curious. If someone wants to ask I am happy to provide. But honestly, your response seems more like someone who just wants to pick a fight as opposed to have an intelligent thoughtful exchange. If I misread you, then my apologies. If you would like to try some more civil discourse then please ... try again. If it offends you then don't read it and please do not participate in it. It was not posted to provoke people into a saliva spewing rage.
I have a sharp wit at times, the first part (probably the more combative sounding when read) was more in humor than anything. I found it entertaining that you said you wanted to promote understanding while being near indecipherable in your own communication. I've done it before and these forums make is easy to start a thought with the first half a sentence and be on a different thought by the period. Honest humor and acknowledgement of miscommunication can be a great starting point for civil dialogue. It offers a small goal in understanding each other that, when easily accomplished, can be built upon for greater understanding overall. With that said, I am not offended at all and my apologies if you were. No hard feelings, let's work it out.

Pertaining to the current discussion, I think concensus is a poor indication of truthfulness. Having 70% of all kindergarteners in a school believe a whale is a fish doesn't incline me to wonder why the remaining 30% won't give more credibility to the idea that whales could be fish. It makes me wonder why a large proportion could believe a whale is a fish in the first place and why hadn't that been corrected. I'd want to know what is similar about that 70% and work to address is: maybe they had the same teachers, similarly wrong materials, a field trip with bad info, etc.

Now, the facts in the GZ case are somewhat less black and white (more black and hispanic[lol]), but the facts of the situation and the history of the individuals involved would indicate that race did not play a part. Perception is important, yes, but only when compared with facts. We are in a day and age where information is readily available to those who look. Delusions involving basic facts should not be tolerated, yet a large number of people have bought into the delusion that the prime reason GZ killed TM was race. So, I'm not going to wonder why people won't acknowledge race as a problem because of GZ/TM. I'm left wondering what factors have led to a large percentage of people being so deluded into thinking race played a large role in GZ killing TM.
 

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Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

When almost half of the population of this country believe that race "was" a factor, we are already there...
Sure but that half of the country always believes race is the factor when something negative happens to a black person.
 

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Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

let's work it out..
Great. No worries.

I think concensus is a poor indication of truthfulness. Having 70% of all kindergarteners in a school believe a whale is a fish doesn't incline me to wonder why the remaining 30% won't give more credibility to the idea that whales could be fish. It makes me wonder why a large proportion could believe a whale is a fish in the first place and why hadn't that been corrected. I'd want to know what is similar about that 70% and work to address is: maybe they had the same teachers, similarly wrong materials, a field trip with bad info, etc.
Consider this as a possibility, we have intelligent people informed by the same information who reach a different conclusion. It happens all the time. I believe it is an error on your part (an many others) to make the assumption that people who did not reach the same conclusion as you could only have done so if they are misinformed. I don't believe this is the case. Maybe instead it is a matter of perception. I chose to respect your intelligence even though I disagree with your conclusion and assume instead that we are different people who have been informed differently on a personal level (as individuals) and that is why we have reached a different conclusion. You are welcome to disagree with me but please do not diminish me by reducing me and the life that informs my perceptions and my opinion to being nothing more than a product of media manipulation and I will return the favor.

Now, the facts in the GZ case are somewhat less black and white (more black and hispanic[lol]), but the facts of the situation and the history of the individuals involved would indicate that race did not play a part. Perception is important, yes, but only when compared with facts. We are in a day and age where information is readily available to those who look. Delusions involving basic facts should not be tolerated, yet a large number of people have bought into the delusion that the prime reason GZ killed TM was race.
Here is where our personal biases come into play. You state that the facts of the situation and the history of the individuals involved would indicate that race did not play a part. I look at those very same facts and believe there was a better chance that they do. I also will not promote my understanding as fact because I don't know it is merely my opinion based on the information available to me. You may be certain, I may be certain, but we do not know whether he was motivated by racism, only he knows. Because as you say...the facts in the GZ case are somewhat less black and white.

In all honesty, I feel like claiming to KNOW is arrogant and disrespectful to the people who see the case differently. As for the facts, some people consider their opinion fact. We all have to back away and make certain we do not blend our interpretation of the facts with the actual facts.

So, I'm not going to wonder why people won't acknowledge race as a problem because of GZ/TM.
Just to be clear, I am not suggesting that you acknowledge race a factor in the case. I am asking that you make an effort to understand why some would.

I'm left wondering what factors have led to a large percentage of people being so deluded into thinking race played a large role in GZ killing TM
This tone is problematic. You call those who disagree with your opinion to be deluded. Does it not even occur to you that if there are so many who feel this way perhaps there lives are informed by experiences you have not had that make that perception completely valid. That instead of being deluded they have first hand experiences that you have not that lead them to a different understanding?
 
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