Expel Turkey from NATO, cancel EU application

[Efendi]

there were no civilians killed on that ship.

Oh sure they were military men..

Oh, you mean like all of Turkey, which for thousands of years was Greek until it was systematically ethnically clensed after Ottoman occupation?

You mean historical revenge?

The Turks should never be one to play the ethnic clensing card, given the history of exactly that (and genocide). Fact is, the Turkish occupation of Cyprus completely disqualifies it from criticizing Israel. Only difference between Cyprus and the west bank, other than the fact that the Turkish attack was a completely unjustified act of aggression against a state that had demonstrated absolutely no hostility to Turkey while Israel was directly attacked from the west bank continuously for decades prior), was that Turkey completely clensed the territory it occupied, while Israel did not.

Turks can be victim of Genocide as well. Being soory for it or not is matter of hearth.

:lamo

Probably you have no replie.

which is, of course, not an EU member.

Does it make difference? Is switzerland part of different planet different society?

this I understand. of course, it would have been the Turks "fault", however irrelevant that is, given Greek ties to that land going back thousands of years, but the Turks have not yet adopted that silly western pre-disposition to appologize for past sins at every opportunity.

Thousand years Oh sure.... thousand. 1,2,3,..............................................................................................................................................................................................∞,998,998,1000 whoah!

Whoah. I should first ask my grand grand grand........................................................................................................................................................................................grandad.

I will also ask him what was my fault.

 

[ludahai]

Switzerland (assuming it is an EU member)

CJ 2 beat me to it... Switzerland is not a member of the European Union...

 

[ludahai]

Israel is under threath, from Hamas terrorism, They feel they are surrounded. In these conditions they can carefully think about things. Thats why they are crazzy. They don't feel safe. They kill civilians in Gaza, with the contrubutions of Hamas. Behaviour of Israel seem hard to anticipate.

I wouldn't say they are crazy to defend themselves. It is also reasonable to expect that they don't feel safe with neighbors that have tried to force them into the sea from the very foundation as a modern nation. It doesn't make them crazy.

The last crazzy things she did was killing civilian in the ship. If they can atack their allies. Turkey will have difficulty in trusting Israel. Iran is not a country who has capacity to meet modern Turkish army in any field of warfare. They have no reasons to atack Turkey. They are more communicateable unlike Iran. Turkey wouln't like destruction of Iran. Yet she didn't want to be part of Iraq invassion. It is unpleasant decision in the long term relationships.

That ship was violating a well-known blockade on a territory that has been engaging in war with Israel for a long time. The ship was warned at first and they chose to ignore the warning. What was crazy was the people on that ship who decided to resist the Israeli Defense Force...

Many of the state in NATO would like Turkey to have good relationships with Iran, Iraq, Syria. They need Turkey in their relationships with these countries.

I am not disagreeing with this. Turkey is an important bridge between the core of the Islamic world and the west.

It is not only issue related to EU negotiation, It is also benefit of Turkey as well as benefit of South Cyprus to improve relationships. For the stability of the region. Thank God Cyprus wasn't like Crete where Turkish people totally cleansed, Cypriot Turks are safe in the Island.

But Turkey is still an impediment to the reunification of the island, an island that is a current EU member.

Turkey doesn't have serious human rights problems,

Really? Tell that to the Kurds.
Tell that to Amnesty International
Freedom House also disagrees...

I don't like to correct you but there is no death penalty in Turkey. It was in the long past.

Not long past, but it has been abolished as of just a few years ago... I stand corrected on that point.

It is not only issue of EU negotiations, providing cultural rights for any Turkish citizen is duty of the state. Yet developments are on its course, no matter EU has bussiness in it or not.

I don't know what your last statement means, but if you mean it isn't the EUs business, it is if you want to become a member of the club.

To accept it or not is ones freedom. Also there is no chapter in the negotiations related to Armenian Genocide. It is totally unrelated with negotiations between EU and Turkey.

Don't be surprised if it comes up in the negotiations at some point. There are more than two dozen member states and one or more is bound to bring it up before Turkey's accession.

It is Switzerland that bans minaret, ignoring opinion of local people of Islam religion.

Switzerland is not an EU member

We Turks and Greeks, have too painfull history. It is not intolerancy actually, it is trauma related to past. It is hard to understand from outside. This sorrows are not hard to share. I have many Greek friends. Feeling soory for the shamefull past is not difficult issue.

There is a lot of blame to go around on both sides, but you have to understand that the Greeks aren't exactly pleased about the multi-century occupation they sufferred at the hands of the Ottoman Turks...

I am not opposed to EU membership for Turkey, BTW, but Ankara must understand that if you want to be a member of the EU club it is up to the EU to make the rules and make the decision. Turkey has no right to dictate anything, and while I am personally interested in the outcome, as I am not a citizen of any EU state, it really isn't up to me -- it is up to the people of the EU member states.

 

[Efendi]

I wouldn't say they are crazy to defend themselves. It is also reasonable to expect that they don't feel safe with neighbors that have tried to force them into the sea from the very foundation as a modern nation. It doesn't make them crazy

I also follow Israel through Turkish Israel negotiations. Humilating turkish ambassador, because of Erdoğans rhetorics. Disrespect to a state is different thing than having a replie to Erdoğan. Sending comandos to the ship and causing civil lost. These don't seem to be pragmatic decision. There is a saying in Turkish, standing up with rage siting down with loss.

I know they don't feel safe, because of the conditions, in the region. There are sided who benefited from disorders. Long story to tell.

But If Israel can not be patient and pragmatic, I will be suspicious about her next step. In short I fear from who fear.

That ship was violating a well-known blockade on a territory that has been engaging in war with Israel for a long time. The ship was warned at first and they chose to ignore the warning. What was crazy was the people on that ship who decided to resist the Israeli Defense Force...

I am not on wheather behaviour of ship was right or wrong. It was ship full of civil people. My father is a policeman. Even more dangerous people such as guys with molofot coctail, throwing stones,...are categorized as civilian. What is crazzy is sending to the ship comandos. Any comandos would do the same thing because they are not equiped for civil riots, but equiped for warfare.

But Turkey is still an impediment to the reunification of the island, an island that is a current EU member.

It wasn't Turkey against to Annan plan. Unification was rejected by Cyprus side. There can no be a powerfull governments in Turkey accepting a solution without satisfaction of Turkish Cypriot side. It was a mistake for EU to accept Cyprious before solution of the problem. It will prolong the solution.

Really? Tell that to the Kurds.
Tell that to Amnesty International
Freedom House also disagrees...

I follow the cased on TV news. Comparing todays Turkey is far more different than before. Many painfull things experienced in the past as a result of Turkish fachism towards Greeks, and Kurds on the east, and some more shame to add to the list. There were systematic torture. High level of freedom of speech problems.

Today there is not enought satisfactory level of cultural rights for minority. Erdoğan government attempt to increase Kurdish rights. Kurdish TV. Kurdish language course, plan to open Kurdish institue in a reputable Turkish university. These are not satisfactory. Hopefully these will go on.

In the past you couln't even support Armenain Genocide. Today you can do it legally. But you have to suffer Turkish faschism who murdered Hrant Dink. I was there in the protest in Istanbul in the mass crowd.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/Dinkfuneral3.jpg

There is problem of faschism, more than legistlation.

But these are problems of Turkey, and her citizens not problems of EU.

Not long past, but it has been abolished as of just a few years ago... I stand corrected on that point.

7 years few? Np. That sound long to me.

I don't know what your last statement means, but if you mean it isn't the EUs business, it is if you want to become a member of the club.

No one want EU membership except for short sighted bussines people and government supported by them, thanks to arrogancies of EU countries. They didn't anything to make Turk feel they were unwanted.

Don't be surprised if it comes up in the negotiations at some point. There are more than two dozen member states and one or more is bound to bring it up before Turkey's accession.

It is sheer absurdity, and dishonesty adding new chapters to the negotiations. It is not fair to fool Turkey. I can't respect that. What is the Irony is you can't discuss Armenian genocide in most of the EU countries. You will be punished if you do in France.

Switzerland is not an EU member.

Does Switzerland has different trend than the others?

There is a lot of blame to go around on both sides, but you have to understand that the Greeks aren't exactly pleased about the multi-century occupation they sufferred at the hands of the Ottoman Turks...

History is mostly bussiness of nationalists. I care about todays problem. Turks suffered in the hand of Ottomans as well. It wasn't their turkish neighbours who made them suffer. If you listen memories of the olds they would tell you good memory of their old greek friends. They weren't responsible for ethnic cleansing of Turkey and Greece in exchange of populations and what ever happened in the long past.

Criticizing state of Ottoman/Turkey/ Greece is different things than criticizing fellow Turkish/Greek peasent. Counrty and State are both different things.

I am not opposed to EU membership for Turkey, BTW, but Ankara must understand that if you want to be a member of the EU club it is up to the EU to make the rules and make the decision. Turkey has no right to dictate anything, and while I am personally interested in the outcome, as I am not a citizen of any EU state, it really isn't up to me -- it is up to the people of the EU member states.

I want many improvement for Turkey, not for EU negotiations. I don't have reasons to be EU member. I am anxious about Turkeys being EU member, not for ideologic reasons, like nationalism, religion etc... Supporting European values is different thing than supporting EU membership.

Turkey won't have freedom to set her own policies in her region, caucassia, mideast, and her economic decisions.

Also I am anxious about future of Eu. I am not sure they could form politic power. They can't produce policies. They can't have fiscal and economic policies. They have also demographic problems which would decrease their productivity in the future. They have also racism problems.

What would EU membership serve to Turkey when Turkey meet all the Cophenhagen criteria?

It is also decision of EU citizens who are mostly unaware of who is Turkey, who are Turks.

Note: I don't mean Turkey has problem in her legal legistlation. I would argue these in long, if you wish on any field related to it.